On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Ed Seedhouse wrote:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:54:19 -0600, Fred Galvin
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Ed Seedhouse wrote:

Well, he used it in that novel it is true. However it is originally
from a considerably earlier Heinlein novel. Anyone want to take a
shot?

No! I can't stand the suspense. What earlier Heinlein novel is that??

That would be "Red Planet". This was one of his earlier "juvenile"
efforts, and if memory serves, it was the first one I read when I was
around eleven or twelve.
[...]

I started with "Space Cadet", and I never read "Red Planet". Anyway,
it's real interesting that Heinlein used the word "grok" that long
ago. Does the OED know about this? All the dictionaries I have think
it originated with "Stranger in a Strange Land".

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:21:26 -0600, Fred Galvin
wrote:


That would be "Red Planet". This was one of his earlier "juvenile"
efforts, and if memory serves, it was the first one I read when I was
around eleven or twelve.

I started with "Space Cadet", and I never read "Red Planet". Anyway,
it's real interesting that Heinlein used the word "grok" that long
ago.

Well, it's possible that particular word wasn't in the earlier novel
now that I think about it. The Martians were there, but I'm not sure
about just how much of their actual language was in that earlier book
- some of it was I'm sure. I don't have the actual novel at hand to
check, but I think this particular word was probably in there.

Does the OED know about this? All the dictionaries I have think
it originated with "Stranger in a Strange Land".

What the OED knows and how they know it is not within my spere of
knowlege. :-)


Ed

I started with "Space Cadet", and I never read "Red Planet". Anyway,
it's real interesting that Heinlein used the word "grok" that long
ago. Does the OED know about this? All the dictionaries I have think
it originated with "Stranger in a Strange Land".

Space Cadet was, what? earlier than 1965? Or is that when I read it.

But Kirk did say grok-the-fullness except I have no way of proving it. In
fact, some Californian also said it to me 4,000 feet above the treeline when
we ran out of rope and were having a gentlemanly discussion of whose
explanation...

But we both agreed it was a Kirkism. Oxygen starvation? & Was Heinlein a
Californian?

Phil

Fred Galvin wrote:
Does the OED know about this? All the dictionaries I have think it
originated with "Stranger in a Strange Land".

The OED gives quotations from `Stranger in a Strange Land' (1961),
T. Wolfe's `Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test' (1968), Playboy (1968), New
Yorker (1969), D.Lodge's `Changing Places' (1975) and Infoworld
(1984). They don't list anything before `Stranger' but there's no
claim that this is where it originated. The etymology is given as,
`Arbitrary formation by Heinlein.'


Dave.

--
David Richerby Simple Sumerian Atlas (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a map of the world that's really old
but it has no moving parts!

On 19 Dec 2003 20:03:17 +0000 (GMT), David Richerby
wrote:

Fred Galvin wrote:
Does the OED know about this? All the dictionaries I have think it
originated with "Stranger in a Strange Land".

The OED gives quotations from `Stranger in a Strange Land' (1961),
T. Wolfe's `Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test' (1968), Playboy (1968), New
Yorker (1969), D.Lodge's `Changing Places' (1975) and Infoworld
(1984). They don't list anything before `Stranger' but there's no
claim that this is where it originated. The etymology is given as,
`Arbitrary formation by Heinlein.'


Famously coined by Heinlein. The term and much else about "Stranger in
a Strange Land" spawned study groups at the time. These pages give
some relevant quotes from "Stranger".

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...212216,00.html

http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=339

Saludos, Mig

Mig Greengard
http://www.chessninja.com
Because Losing Sucks

Har har ho, hee hee hee
And a couple of la-de-dahs
That's how Karpov pushes wood
In the merry old land of OZ

When he wonders what to do
You know he'll take a pause
And wait for yogurt messages
In the merry old land of OZ

He's made chess into a wealthy life
He doesn't wash his hair but still he has
---a kind of hot wife

Castle here, promote there
And pretend it's not all blahs
At least the money's kind of good
In the merry old land of Oz

"Phil Innes" wrote

But Kirk did say grok-the-fullness except I have no way of proving it. In
fact, some Californian also said it to me 4,000 feet above the treeline when
we ran out of rope and were having a gentlemanly discussion of whose
explanation...

But we both agreed it was a Kirkism. Oxygen starvation? & Was Heinlein a
Californian?

Quite the source you have there.

..
we ran out of rope and were having a gentlemanly discussion of whose
explanation...
But we both agreed it was a Kirkism. Oxygen starvation?


Quite the source you have there.


Rock-climbing with Gene Roddenberry on Mt. Whitney, he was. Ran out of rope,
they did. Think this good when you have no oxygen, you will not!




The good of the mini outways the good of the few -- or The One. 'Tis
logical. And a double-damn on you if you don't agree!




Was Heinlein a Californian?


Nappa Valley I think. Mediocre grapes, indifferently blended, and with an
overdose of bombua. But at 14,000 feet, who cared where it originated, so long
as it wasn't half-frozen, like Phil's fingers and toes?





"I get my kicks *above* the treeline, Sunshine." -- Dr. Phil

"Phil Innes" wrote in message .. .
3rd Annual Little Sweden Chess Festival takes place 13-14 December in
Bethany College, Lindsborg, Kansas, USA.
Participants: Anatoly Karpov RUS 2693, Alexander Onischuk USA 2661, Ivan
Morovic CHI 2583, Ulf Andersson Sweden 2566, Yuri Shulman USA 2564 and John
Donaldson USA 2456.
5 rounds, Games 25' +10".
Schedule:
December 13: 11:00 am and 6:00 pm
December 14: 11:00 am, 2:00 pm, 4:00 pm
Closing ceremony December 14 at 5:30 pm
Internet site: www.intecsus.org and www.lindsborg.org

Mr Karpov has just received an honary degree to honour his UNICEF work, and
this is only his second tournament in the USA. He has also formally opened a
new chess school in Lindsborg.

Phil Innes

Thank you Mr. Karpov.