"Simon" wrote in message
news:4008b003$0$1743
Does anyone have any information or annotations on the following game?
Timman - Karpov, Montreal 1979 (0-1)

Thanks for a very interesting post. I ran this through Fritz, and it
specifies 18. fxg3 as the last book move, in A28 English Opening, Four
Knights. The next move in sequence, Qxd6 is assessed as -2.86 ! In
other
words, a huge disadvantage for white.

My question is, what compensation is there for white in gaining this
position through book moves? Is there any play for white after 18...Qxd6 ?

You must be mistaken about the opening - to my knowledge the last book move
is 6...O-O. Perhaps Fritz recognizes the game from its database and
classifies it as a recognized opening somehow? But it's certainly not book
moves until 18...Qxd6.

White appears to have made subtle mistakes already with 12.bxc4 (better was
12.Bxc4) and 15.Nd1? which allows allows Karpov to uncork that fantastic
knight sacrifice 15...Nxh2! which is winning in all variations.

Interestingly, most computers seem to have great difficulty making sense of
the position after 14...Re8. Get your engine to analyze this position for a
few minutes, and watch the line and analysis value change dramatically as
the computer struggles to get a grip on the position!

--
Gregory Topov
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I say." - Marshall McLuhan

"John McCumiskey" wrote in message
om...

I don't have it in front of me, but wasn't the Timman-Karpov game
analyzed in "Montreal 1979: Tournament of Stars". It may be available
at Amazon.com ... excellent book!

It is lightly annotated at http://www.endgame.nl/montreal.htm

Thanks for that! I've incorporated those annotations along with others from
various sources.
Paste the text below into a PGN file to view the game with the light
annotations.
If you're not familiar with the game, do check out: 15...Nxh2! and 27...c5!
Comments/criticism welcome.
--
Gregory Topov
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I say." - Marshall McLuhan

[Event "Montreal"]
[Site "Montreal"]
[Date "1979.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Timman, Jan"]
[Black "Karpov, Anatoli"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A28"]
[PlyCount "62"]

{Karpov was World Champion 1975-85. His style is profoundly positional,
following Capablanca. He is a control player par excellence, with an
ability to routinely convert a microscopic advantage into a win. When
necessary he played with originality and tactical flair, as was the case
in this game.}
1.c4
{With compelling and astonishing tactics, Karpov makes white's
helpless king dance from one side of the board to the other, weaving
his spell of magic to win a game that was judged the best game played
in 1979! In particular the positions and line that develop after
Karpov's amazing 15...Nxh2! and 27...c5! are amazing!}
1...Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 3.Nf3 Nc6
{The English, Four Knights}
4.e3 Be7 5.d4 exd4 6.Nxd4 O-O
{Last book move.}
7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 d5 9.O-O Bd6 10.b3 Qe7
{Black gets in control.}
11.Bb2
{Apparently achieving a well-known theoretical position thus far.}
( 11.cxd5? {doesn't work because of} 11...Qe5 12.f4 Qxc3 )
11...dxc4!
{A novelty that Karpov had prepared for his great rival, Korchnoi.
11...dxc is an anti-positional looking move, apparently wanting the g4
square.}
12.bxc4?
( {Correct and leading to a draw is} 12. Bxc4! Ng4 13. g3 Nxh2!
14. Kxh2 Qh4+ 15. Kg1 Bxg3 16. fxg3 Qxg3+ )
12...Rb8! 13.Qc1
{The players have followed Sande-Svenneby, Norway 1977.}
( {13.Rb1 will lead to the loss of material for white.}
13.Rb1? Rxb2 14.Rxb2 Qe5 15.g3 Qxc3 )
13...Ng4!
{Threatening mate.}
14.g3 Re8!
{The position is relatively even until now, but notice how black
controls the diagonals pointing towards whites kingside! White's next
move allows black to begin pressing for an advantage.}
15.Nd1?
{Computer analysis had difficulty making sense of the position after
14...Re8, suggesting that 15. Qd2, 15. Rb1 or 15. e4 were all better
for white than 15.Nd1, but still leaving black with a marginal
advantage. 15. Bf3 seems to be bad for white, leading to the loss of a
pawn. 15.Nd1? leads to the excellent ...Nxh2!, which is certainly
winning for black, and is the line that Karpov played in the game.}
( 15.Bf3 Qf6 16.Bg2 Qh6 17.h3 Ne5! 18.c5 Bxc5 )
( {An immediate disaster is avoided by} 15. Bf3 Ne5 16. Be2 Bh3 17. Rd1)
15...Nxh2!
{The knight sacrifice introduces a terrible humiliation!}
16.c5?
{According to analysis, there are no good moves for white in this
position, and black has the game solidly in hand! Re1 may be the best
for white, but black is still winning in this position. Kxh2 is not an
good option, because black's strong bishops on c8 and d6 and queen on
e7 control three parallel diagonals, and would make capturing the
knight disastrous for white's king. }
( {-4.74 Timman had calculated} 16. Kxh2? Qh4+ 17. Kg2 Qh3+ 18. Kg1 Bxg3
19. fxg3 Qxg3+ 20. Kh1 Re4! 21. Rf4 {He notices the horrible}
21... Bh3 {too late.})
( {-1.90} 16.Re1 Ng4 17.Bf3 Bd7 18.e4 Bc5 19.Bc3 Ne5 20.Be2 Bh3 21.Rb1
Rxb1 22.Qxb1 Qg5)
16...Nxf1! 17.cxd6 Nxg3!
{A zwischenzug sequence. Notice the threat on black's queen which
black can ignore, because black threatens a family fork of white's
king and queen after Nxe2+!}
18.fxg3
( {The greedy} 18.dxe7? {is doesn't benefit white after the fork}
18...Nxe2+ 19.Kh2 Nxc1 20.Rxc1 Rxe7 21.Rxc6 Bb7 )
18...Qxd6
{Black has won a rook and three pawns for a bishop and a knight, but
more importantly, has exposed white's king to assault.}
19.Kf2 Qh6 20.Bd4 Qh2+ 21.Ke1 Qxg3+ 22.Kd2 Qg2 23.Nb2 Ba6 24.Nd3 Bxd3
{Threatening Qxe4 and nearly mate.}
25.Kxd3 Rbd8 26.Bf1 Qe4+ 27.Kc3 c5!
{A wonderful move! Black attacks with a hanging pawn for free, which
white's bishop has little option but to capture because it has nowhere
to go,
but the consequences are in black's attacking favour.}
28.Bxc5 Qc6 29.Kb3 Rb8+ 30.Ka3 Re5
{Threatening mate after Rxc5.}
31.Bb4 Qb6
{Although black is ahead on material by only two points, white resigns
with the position and game decisively in black's grip, with further
losses inevitable for white. The following line would even be slightly
stronger:}
( {12:+7.82} 31...Qd6 32.Qc4 c5 33.Bc3 Rxe3 34.Ka4 Qc6+ 35.Ka5 Re4 36.
Qxe4 Qxe4 37.Re1 Qc6 )
0-1

"Gregory Topov" wrote in message
.. .
"Simon" wrote in message
news:4008b003$0$1743
You must be mistaken about the opening - to my knowledge the last book
move
is 6...O-O. Perhaps Fritz recognizes the game from its database and
classifies it as a recognized opening somehow? But it's certainly not
book
moves until 18...Qxd6.


you are probably right, I just ran the game through Fritz, and it came up
with the following:

[Event "Montreal"]
[Site "Montreal"]
[Date "1979.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Timman, Jan"]
[Black "Karpov, Anatoli"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A28"]
[Annotator "Deep Junior 8 (30s)"]
[PlyCount "62"]
[EventDate "1979.??.??"]

{A28: English Opening: Four Knights Variation
} 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 Nc6
4. e3 Be7 5. d4 exd4 6. Nxd4 O-O 7. Nxc6 bxc6 8. Be2 d5 9. O-O Bd6 10. b3
Qe7
11. Bb2 dxc4 12. bxc4 Rb8 13. Qc1 Ng4 14. g3 Re8 15. Nd1 Nxh2 16. c5 Nxf1
17.
cxd6 Nxg3 18. fxg3 {last book move.} Qxd6 19. Kf2 (19. Kg2 Qd5+ 20. Bf3 Bh3+
21. Kf2 Qd3 $19) 19... Qh6 20. Bd4 (20. Qc3 {doesn't get the cat off the
tree}
Qh2+ 21. Kf3 Rxb2 22. Qxb2 g5 $19) 20... Qh2+ 21. Ke1 Qxg3+ 22. Kd2 Qg2 23.
Nb2
(23. Ke1 $19 {a last effort to resist the inevitable}) 23... Ba6 24. Nd3
(24.
Qf1 {a fruitless try to alter the course of the game} Qd5 25. Bxa6 Rxb2+ 26.
Kc1 Rh2 $19) 24... Bxd3 25. Kxd3 Rbd8 26. Bf1 (26. Bh5 {
cannot undo what has already been done} Qf2 27. Kc4 Rd5 $19) 26... Qe4+ 27.
Kc3
c5 28. Bxc5 (28. Bxg7 {doesn't change the outcome of the game} Re6 29. Rb1
Kxg7
$19) 28... Qc6 29. Kb3 Rb8+ 30. Ka3 Re5 31. Bb4 Qb6 (31... Qb6 32. Qc4 Rxe3+
33. Ka4 a5 $19) (31... Qd6 $142 $1 {keeps an even firmer grip} 32. Qc3 c5
33.
Kb2 Rxb4+ 34. Kc2 $19) 0-1

I didn't realise that it categorised database games as book though, very
interesting.

Thanks Gregory.

"Gregory Topov" wrote in message
.. .
"Simon" wrote in message
news:4008b003$0$1743
Does anyone have any information or annotations on the following game?
Timman - Karpov, Montreal 1979 (0-1)

Thanks for a very interesting post. I ran this through Fritz, and it
specifies 18. fxg3 as the last book move, in A28 English Opening, Four
Knights. The next move in sequence, Qxd6 is assessed as -2.86 ! In
other
words, a huge disadvantage for white.

My question is, what compensation is there for white in gaining this
position through book moves? Is there any play for white after 18...Qxd6
?

You must be mistaken about the opening - to my knowledge the last book
move
is 6...O-O. Perhaps Fritz recognizes the game from its database and
classifies it as a recognized opening somehow? But it's certainly not
book
moves until 18...Qxd6.

Gregory, Simon -
Wouldn't the fact that the game was played in 1979 mean that different
"books" are being consulted?
Bob

En/na Bob Musicant ha escrit:

Gregory, Simon -
Wouldn't the fact that the game was played in 1979 mean that different
"books" are being consulted?
Bob


In my opinion that game is part of book "for black". Surely that line is
entered with some "?" mark in white moves and book recognize it but
engine will never play it with white.

AT

"Antonio Torrecillas" wrote in message
...

Surely that line is
entered with some "?" mark in white moves and book recognize it but
engine will never play it with white.

AT


Hi Antonio,

Well, you would certainly hope so! Although, I must admit I am confused as
to why Fritz would recognise a database game as book, if it did, why not
include the rest of the game. Whites play should certainly receive some
notation for the engine to avoid it, as white ends with a seriously
compromised position.

Simon

En/na Simon ha escrit:
"Antonio Torrecillas" wrote in message
...


Surely that line is
entered with some "?" mark in white moves and book recognize it but
engine will never play it with white.

AT



Hi Antonio,

Well, you would certainly hope so! Although, I must admit I am confused as
to why Fritz would recognise a database game as book, if it did, why not
include the rest of the game. Whites play should certainly receive some
notation for the engine to avoid it, as white ends with a seriously
compromised position.

Simon



I try to check, ...

In Fritz8 openings book there is marked as "?":
- 7.Nxc6? (is prefered 7.Be2)
- 15.Nd1? (is prefered 15.Bf3)

You know, in openings books there are the bad moves and the good ones
because the same book works with white or black.

I only refer to Fritz8 book (Fritz8.ctg) which can be listed, edited and
changed as any other book. And respect to having the entire game, I
suppose there is a problem with space: the file which has until
18...Qxd6 has a size of 163 Mb !!

AT