"sandirhodes" wrote in message
news:_5oRb.808$L_4.594@okepread01...
"Nick" wrote
Your self-restraint in not writing on subjects about which you are
ignorant is a commendable example to us all. :-)

Thanks.

While we're at a lull, here, I have a question for you.
I ask you, only because you seem to be from Great Britain,
and may know the answer, as well as some insight.

I saw an American movie the other day that used a phrase it claimed to be
popular in the latter 19th century in GB ("merry Andrew").
I just wondered if it is true that it was in use at that time,

Dear Mr Campbell,

Actually, I am not old enough to remember the 'later 19th century'. :-)

David Richerby already has written a thoughtful response, citing the
Oxford English Dictionary, in the OT thread, 'Merry-Andrew'.

and if so, if it is still in use today.

According to David Richerby, the Oxford English Dictionary mentions no
20th century citations. Like him, I never have heard the term in use.
On the other hand, Mike Murray claims to know: "It's still used."

I believe the connotation was inflammatory, if not derogatory,
but I am not sure. Does this sound at all familiar?

The term does not sound familiar to me from contemporary speech.
My impression is that 'merry andrew' seems mildly to moderately disparaging,
with an evident meaning of 'buffoon'.

Given that Mike Murray has initiated a personal attack on me in this thread:

"What is this nonsense of 'the emerging anti-Semitism of the Left?'...
It's easy to pretend that all our 'enemies' are united, but you really
do need to lie to yourself a lot to keep it up."
--John Macnab (writing in response to Mike Murray, 10 October 2003)

--Nick

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \Mer"ry-an"drew\, n.
One whose business is to make sport for others; a buffoon; a
zany; especially, one who attends a mountebank or quack
doctor.

Note: This term is said to have originated from one Andrew
Borde, an English physician of the 16th century, who
gained patients by facetious speeches to the multitude

God Rest You Merry, Gentlemen!

..
While I personally had never before heard of this term, I got several "hits,"
including an American (I think) movie with this as the title! Who do you think
played the buffoon, the clown? None other than Danny Kaye, I would assume, for
he was listed as the star actor, and such a role would be right up his alley.
Come to think of it, I doubt if I ever saw him play anything BUT a clown....





It's still used. Example: When Nick needs reinforcement, his Merry
Andrew, Trollsby, often provides a diversion.


Very astute. The quack doctor, Nick, and his merry assistant, Trollsby, are
quite a pair. But here in America, this term seems to have pretty much
bitten the dust.

PJDBAD wrote:
Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Note: This term is said to have originated from one Andrew
Borde, an English physician of the 16th century, who
gained patients by facetious speeches to the multitude

The OED is somewhat dismissive of that idea: ``Hearne's statement, in the
preface to his edition of Benedictus Abbas (1735) that Merry Andrew was
originally applied to Dr. Andrew Borde (died 1549) has neither evidence
nor intrinsic probability, though Borde had a reputation for buffoonery,
as is shown by the traditional attribution to him of various collections
of jests.''

I suspect their reasoning is that you'd expect it to turn up in the
written record well before 1673 if it referred to somebody who died a
century and a quarter previous to that.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Generic Lotion (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ soothing hand lotion but it's just
like all the others!

Subject: Merry andrew [OT] RIDICULOUS crossposting and how to STOP it

On 28 January 2004 David Richerby wrote in
Message-id:

PJDBAD wrote:
Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Note: This term is said to have originated from one Andrew
Borde, an English physician of the 16th century, who
gained patients by facetious speeches to the multitude

The OED is somewhat dismissive of that idea: ``Hearne's statement, in the
preface to his edition of Benedictus Abbas (1735) that Merry Andrew was
originally applied to Dr. Andrew Borde (died 1549) has neither evidence
nor intrinsic probability, though Borde had a reputation for buffoonery,
as is shown by the traditional attribution to him of various collections
of jests.''

I suspect their reasoning is that you'd expect it to turn up in the
written record well before 1673 if it referred to somebody who died a
century and a quarter previous to that.

David Richerby


Andrew Borde (1500-1549) was physician to Henry VIII. He had a reputation of
being very learned but eccentric. He also had the reputation of addressing
crowds of people at fairs and other functions in a captivating, i.e. ad
captandum, way. Those who imitated his wit and drollery, though they did not
possess his intelligence, were called Merry Andrews - a term now used to
signify a clown or a buffoon. The good doctor Latinized his name into Andreas
Perforatus.
Although the above is the usual explanation on the origin of the expression
Merry Andrew or merry-andrew, Andrew was a common name in old English plays for
a varlet or manservant.

George Mirijanian

Miriling wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
The OED is somewhat dismissive of that idea: ``Hearne's statement, in
the preface to his edition of Benedictus Abbas (1735) that Merry Andrew
was originally applied to Dr. Andrew Borde (died 1549) has neither
evidence nor intrinsic probability.''

Andrew Borde (1500-1549) was physician to Henry VIII. [...] Those who
imitated his wit and drollery, though they did not possess his
intelligence, were called Merry Andrews - a term now used to signify a
clown or a buffoon. [...]

Although the above is the usual explanation on the origin of the
expression Merry Andrew or merry-andrew

Well, if you have any citations that might support that, do let the good
lexicographers of Oxford know...


Dave.

--
David Richerby Radioactive Voodoo Pants (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a well-tailored pair of trousers
that has mystical powers but it'll
make you glow in the dark!

Although the above is the usual explanation on the origin of the
expression
Merry Andrew or merry-andrew, Andrew was a common name in old English
plays for
a varlet or manservant.

Mery has a CXV text citation.
However, Merry-Andrews may be a corruption from
ANDYRS: Other. [A.S.] The more usual form of which is ENDRES.

It is difficult to find both words conjoined, but below they both exist in
the same text. (Jamieson explains it St. Andrew's Day, 30th November; but
does not reconcile it with the following "mery mornyng of May".)

As I me went this /andyrs/ day,
Fast on my way makyng my mone,
In a /mery/ mornyng of May,
Be Huntley bankes myself alone.

/MS. Cantab. Ff. v. 48, f. 116

Phil Innes


George Mirijanian

On 27 Jan 2004 15:58:23 -0800, (Nick) wrote:

"sandirhodes" wrote in message

I saw an American movie the other day that used a phrase it claimed to be
popular in the latter 19th century in GB ("merry Andrew").
I just wondered if it is true that it was in use at that time,

According to David Richerby, the Oxford English Dictionary mentions no
20th century citations. Like him, I never have heard the term in use.
On the other hand, Mike Murray claims to know: "It's still used."

People still read "Tom Jones", don't they? or watch old Danny Kaye
movies?

Heh, heh, heh. I can see the nickbourbaki chorus, in full jester
dress, of course, doing:

The Square of the Hypotenuse (from "Merry Andrew" 1958)

Old Einstein said it, when he was getting nowhere
give him credit
He was heard to declare, "Eureka"

CHORUS:

THE SQUARE OF THE HYPOTENUSE IS A RIGHT TRIANGLE IS EQUAL TO THE SUM
OF THE SQUARES OF TWO ADJACENT SIDES
YOU'D NOT TOLERATE LETTING YOUR PARTICIPLE DANGLE
SO PLEASE EFFECT THE SAME SELF RESPECT FOR YOUR GEOMETRIC SLIDES

Sure as shootin', when problems get in your hair
Be like Newton
Who was heard to declare, "Eureka"!

CHORUS

The two Wright brothers, before they conquered the air
Like those others
Orville hollers, "Lookheah! Wilbur

CHORUS

And, maybe a folk etymology:
http://www.yeoldesussexpages.co.uk/s...ple/andrew.htm


Given that Mike Murray has initiated a personal attack on me in this thread:

"What is this nonsense of 'the emerging anti-Semitism of the Left?'...
It's easy to pretend that all our 'enemies' are united, but you really
do need to lie to yourself a lot to keep it up."
--John Macnab (writing in response to Mike Murray, 10 October 2003)

United ? Just a few overlapping themes. Ever listen to a Maoist and
a Trotskyite argue, back in the late sixties, early seventies?

For light reading:

The New Anti-Semitism : The Current Crisis and What We Must Do About
It (Phyllis Chesler)

Never Again? : The Threat of the New Anti-Semitism (Abraham Foxman)


--Nick