Heil Dubya!

This is the first time I have heard Keres -- one of the best-loved persons in
the history of chess -- called a "Nazi collaborators" (sic) and/or "a former
Nazi", but, of course, that's representative of Scam Spam. I'm waiting for him
to paint Machgielis Euwe with the same lying brush. (Incidentally, where would
Scam Spam have had chess professional Paul Keres play chess during the early
1940s? Wasn't he, like most of continental Europe, a captive of the fascists?)

Why not call Robert J. Fischer a communist, because he went to Moscow of his
own free will, visited chess clubs and skittled with many Soviet players? And
of course, assholes like Scam Spam still insist on calling Fischer "Jewish",
although he consciously (and, perhaps, maliciously) changed his religion and he
never has accepted the Jewish culture.

Concerning "the fact" that Botwinnik "was a Jew", Scam Spam not unexpectedly
goes along with the racist lie that a person with a Jewish ancestor MUST be
Jewish, just as a person "with one drop of Negro blood" must be "Negro".
Judaism is a religion and/or a culture -- nothing more nor less. One is Jewish
if one professes that religion or accepts that culture as one's own. While
other members of Botwinnik's family -- most notably Igor -- have proudly
professed Judaism, I never have heard of Mikhail Botwinnik's position, either
as Jewish or as non-Jewish. (But, of course, what else would one expect of
Scam Spam, who, bye the bye, has changed his own religion?)

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:15:33 +0200, Tapio Huuhka
wrote:

Sam forgets to mention, that the 24th game was drawn after Botvinnik's
offer.
Botvinnik was "a pawn up in a better position" -- just quoting Bronstein in
Chess
Improviser. The conspiracy theorists always remember to mention the 6th and
the
23rd game, but the 24th game doesn't seem to fit in these theories.

(Much snipped.)
It is also to be recalled that the way that Botvinnik became world
champion was that in 1948 Keres lost four suspicious games in a row to
him. Keres had even more reason to fear for his life than did
Bronstein, because Keres was an Estonian who had been Nazi
collaborators during World War II and Keres had played in Nazi events.
So, Bronstein as a relative of Trotsky and Keres as a former Nazi had
everything to fear during the height of Stalin's purges during
1948-1951. Meanwhile, Botvinnik, mislabeled "Botvinnik the
Invincible", was the good party man, the fact that he was a Jew not
being much held against him.

Probably the only thing that saved the lives of Keres and Bronstein
was that they were two of the strongest players in the world. Some
lesser but still grandmaster strength players like Petrov were
executed by Stalin during those purge years.

(Much snipped.)

Heute Uhmuhrikkka, Afghanistan, Irak und Haïti. Morgen die ganze Welt!

Uhmuhrikkka, Uhmuhrikkka über Alles!

(The more information that comes out about the attacks on the Twin Towers and
the Pentagon of 11 September 2001 the more it appears that those attacks were
organized by the rulers of the United States and were intended to have the same
effect on the people of the United States that the Reichstag fire had on the
people of Germany in 1933.)

Fraternally,

Jerome Bibuld
gens una sumus

On 18 Mar 2004 16:24:02 GMT, ospam (Jerome Bibuld)
wrote:

Concerning "the fact" that Botwinnik "was a Jew", Scam Spam not unexpectedly
goes along with the racist lie that a person with a Jewish ancestor MUST be
Jewish, just as a person "with one drop of Negro blood" must be "Negro".
Judaism is a religion and/or a culture -- nothing more nor less. One is Jewish
if one professes that religion or accepts that culture as one's own.

Of course, in saying this, you ascribe a privileged position to your
own secular worldview. Observant Jews define a Jew as someone whose
mother was Jewish or who was converted by whomever that observant Jew
considers to be a valid authority. They would consider the biological
filter, by which one could be 7/8 gentile, 1/8 Jewish, as irrelevant
or nonsensical.

While I generally share *your* viewpoint in this regard, it might not
be appropriate for one outside a culture or religion to define the
criteria by which another belongs to that culture or religion. I
suspect you would not look favorably on, for example, a government
agency's benchmarks overriding tribal criteria as to what constitutes
American Indian tribal membership.

While
other members of Botwinnik's family -- most notably Igor -- have proudly
professed Judaism, I never have heard of Mikhail Botwinnik's position, either
as Jewish or as non-Jewish.

I have seen a number of references claiming that Botwinnik's position
in Soviet society was always somewhat precarious due to his Jewish
ancestry.

Jerome Bibuld wrote:

Concerning "the fact" that Botwinnik "was a Jew", Scam Spam not unexpectedly
goes along with the racist lie that a person with a Jewish ancestor MUST be
Jewish, just as a person "with one drop of Negro blood" must be "Negro".
Judaism is a religion and/or a culture -- nothing more nor less. One is Jewish
if one professes that religion or accepts that culture as one's own.

I hear this from time to time, and can never quite get my head around
it. If a Jew, living in Israel, converts to another religion, what race
is he? Hebrew? I don't think anyone uses that word to refer to the race
any more. Israeli? Does he lose his racial identity completely when he
changes religion?

Isn't it simply the case that the term has two uses, and that someone
can be a Jew by birth/race and by religion?

Woodshifter:

Heil Dubya!

Race? There is one human species (race). Jews do NOT make up a subspecies
(race).

Jerome Bibuld wrote:

Concerning "the fact" that Botwinnik "was a Jew", Scam Spam not
unexpectedly
goes along with the racist lie that a person with a Jewish ancestor MUST be
Jewish, just as a person "with one drop of Negro blood" must be "Negro".
Judaism is a religion and/or a culture -- nothing more nor less. One is
Jewish
if one professes that religion or accepts that culture as one's own.

I hear this from time to time, and can never quite get my head around
it. If a Jew, living in Israel, converts to another religion, what race
is he? Hebrew? I don't think anyone uses that word to refer to the race
any more. Israeli? Does he lose his racial identity completely when he
changes religion?

Isn't it simply the case that the term has two uses, and that someone
can be a Jew by birth/race and by religion?


Heute Uhmuhrikkka, Afghanistan, Irak und Haïti. Morgen die ganze Welt!

Uhmuhrikkka, Uhmuhrikkka über Alles!

(The more information that comes out about the attacks on the Twin Towers and
the Pentagon of 11 September 2001 the more it appears that those attacks were
organized by the rulers of the United States and were intended to have the same
effect on the people of the United States that the Reichstag fire had on the
people of Germany in 1933.)

Fraternally,

Jerome Bibuld
gens una sumus

Jerome Bibuld wrote:

Race? There is one human species (race). Jews do NOT make up a subspecies
(race).

An admirable sentiment, but it seems to me that it's an
oversimplification. One look at me would tell you that I'm not Indian,
for example. You can broaden the term, and call someone Dravidian, again
for example, but there's something there that needs a name.

You're on tentative ground, biologically speaking. Equating race with
species may not be justified.

ospam (Jerome Bibuld) wrote in message ...(about Sam Sloan):
This is the first time I have heard Keres -- one of the best-loved persons in
the history of chess -- called a "Nazi collaborators" (sic) and/or "a former
Nazi", but, of course, that's representative of Scam Spam.

Dear Mr Bibuld,

I have observed that Sam Sloan has *not* been able to cite Paul Keres's
number as an alleged former member of the NSDAP (Nazi Party).

I'm waiting for him to paint Machgielis Euwe with the same lying brush.
(Incidentally, where would Scam Spam have had chess professional Paul Keres
play chess during the early 1940s? Wasn't he, like most of continental
Europe, a captive of the fascists?)

Why not call Robert J. Fischer a communist, because he went to Moscow of his
own free will, visited chess clubs and skittled with many Soviet players?
And of course, assholes like Scam Spam still insist on calling Fischer
"Jewish", although he consciously (and, perhaps, maliciously) changed his
religion and he never has accepted the Jewish culture.

I should amend 'the Jewish *culture*' to 'the Jewish *cultures*'.
At least that's what David Biale did when he edited the scholarly anthology,
'Cultures of the Jews: A New History' (2002).

For whatever it's worth, an observant Jewish friend of mine (the grandson of
a rabbi in pre-Nazi Germany) has stated that he does *not* regard Bobby Fischer
as a Jew.

Concerning "the fact" that Botwinnik "was a Jew", Scam Spam not unexpectedly
goes along with the racist lie that a person with a Jewish ancestor MUST be
Jewish, just as a person "with one drop of Negro blood" must be "Negro".

"What I realized is that even though I'm mathematically Asian--if anything--if
you have one drop of black blood in the United States, you're black."
--Tiger Woods (23 December 1996, "Sports Illustrated")

Judaism is a religion and/or a culture -- nothing more nor less. One is
Jewish if one professes that religion or accepts that culture as one's own.

The question, 'Who is a Jew?', is a historically complex and controversial one.
A concise introductory discussion of it is given in (among many books)
"Hitler's Jewish Soldiers" by Bryan Mark Rigg (University of Kansas Press).

While other members of Botwinnik's family -- most notably Igor -- have proudly
professed Judaism, I never have heard of Mikhail Botwinnik's position, either
as Jewish or as non-Jewish.

As I recall from reading an interview in 'New in Chess', Mikhail Botvinnik
once characterised himself as 'Jewish by blood and Russian by culture'.

--Nick

Woodshifter wrote in message ...
Jerome Bibuld wrote:
Judaism is a religion and/or a culture -- nothing more nor less. One is
Jewish if one professes that religion or accepts that culture as one's own.

I hear this from time to time, and can never quite get my head around it.
If a Jew, living in Israel, converts to another religion, what race is he?
Hebrew? I don't think anyone uses that word to refer to the race any more.

"The Jews are not a 'race'; there are no genetic features that all Jews,
and only Jews, share. Furthermore, because non-Jews have always been able
to convert to Judaism, common physical traits could hardly be expected."
--Bryan Mark Rigg (Hitler's Jewish Soldiers, p. 8)

Israeli?
Does he lose his racial identity completely when he changes religion?

Many citizens (such as Arabs and Druze) of Israel are not Jewish,
and many Jews in Israel are not religiously observant.

Isn't it simply the case that the term has two uses, and
that someone can be a Jew by birth/race and by religion?

The term 'Jew' can have different meanings in different contexts.
A more comprehensive discussion would be beyond the scope of this post.

--Nick

Woodshifter wrote in message ...
Jerome Bibuld wrote:
Judaism is a religion and/or a culture -- nothing more nor less. One is
Jewish if one professes that religion or accepts that culture as one's own.

I hear this from time to time, and can never quite get my head around it.
If a Jew, living in Israel, converts to another religion, what race is he?
Hebrew? I don't think anyone uses that word to refer to the race any more.

"The Jews are not a 'race'; there are no genetic features that all Jews,
and only Jews, share. Furthermore, because non-Jews have always been able
to convert to Judaism, common physical traits could hardly be expected."
--Bryan Mark Rigg (Hitler's Jewish Soldiers, p. 8)

Israeli?
Does he lose his racial identity completely when he changes religion?

Many citizens (such as Arabs and Druze) of Israel are not Jewish,
and many Jews in Israel are not religiously observant.

Isn't it simply the case that the term has two uses, and
that someone can be a Jew by birth/race and by religion?

The term 'Jew' can have different meanings in different contexts.
A more comprehensive discussion would be beyond the scope of this post.

--Nick