DDEckerslyke wrote:


Patriotism just makes no sense whatsoever. Walking round the richer
parts of, say, London: Mayfair, Kensington and the like, and seeing
the people there ISTM that I, and they, have far more in common with
people of a similar social class in another country.

AIUI historically the nation state is an impermanent feature of
political life. It's here today but it will be gone tomorrow. The
tribal instinct will remain.

Do I hate my country? I'm nine tenths of the way there and this seems
the only reasonable response to the way life is lived here. Give me
the chance (I reckon it would take about £10 000) and I would be off
like a shot. This seems like a completely reasonable pov. In the
circumstances patriotism would be insane.

My country right or wrong? Wrong.

cheers

dd

Dear oh dear oh dear, 'dd' I understand you're not having too
interesting a Summer over 'there', but buck up old chap, remember that
in the great lottery of life you already hold a winning ticket..

(DDEckerslyke) wrote in message
om...
...
Maybe I'm against patriotism because my country is so spineless: if I
lived somewhere with something to be proud of then maybe I would feel
patriotic but AISI political argument tends to go from effect to cause
in an attempt to justify an agenda that has its origins elsewhere.
Why should I be any different?

Patriotism just makes no sense whatsoever. Walking round the richer
parts of, say, London: Mayfair, Kensington and the like, and seeing
the people there ISTM that I, and they, have far more in common with
people of a similar social class in another country.

AIUI historically the nation state is an impermanent feature of
political life. It's here today but it will be gone tomorrow.
The tribal instinct will remain.

Do I hate my country? I'm nine tenths of the way there and this
seems the only reasonable response to the way life is lived here.
Give me the chance (I reckon it would take about £10 000) and I would
be off like a shot. This seems like a completely reasonable pov.
In the circumstances patriotism would be insane.

My country right or wrong? Wrong.

'Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone.'
--Edith Cavell (1915, shortly before her execution by German soldiers)

During the First World War, Edith Cavell was a British nurse who helped
Allied prisoners-of-war to escape from German captivity in Belgium.
There's a memorial to Edith Cavell in St Martin's Place (near Trafalgar Square)
in London, and Mount Edith Cavell in Canada was named in her honour.

"I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country
and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.
Such a choice may scandalise the modern reader, and he may stretch out his
patriotic hand to the telephone and ring up the police. It would not have
shocked Dante, though. Dante placed Brutus and Cassius in the lowest circle
of Hell because they had chosen to betray their friend Julius Caesar rather
than their country Rome."
--E.M. Forster ('Two Cheers for Democracy')

--Nick

(Jürgen R.) wrote in message
...(to Wlodzimierz Holsztynski):
On 18 Jul 2004 21:29:21 -0700, (Wlodzimierz
Holsztynski) wrote:
(snipped)
My point was to treat words with a due care, to make a clear distinction
between the two words which unfortunately are confused in a sloppy way:
patriotism and nationalism.

Does Wlodzimierz Holsztynski consider himself qualified to work on the
Oxford English Dictionary? I consider the Oxford English Dictionary to
be a far greater authority than Wlodzimierz Holsztynski on the meanings
of words in English.

You have redefined the common meaning of the word 'patriotism' to suit
your purpose. I don't think that makes much sense. ...

But 'redefin(ing) the common meaning' of words 'to suit (one's) purpose'
is a favourite tactic of propagandists.

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski may prefer to define words in order to suit himself,
but those definitions seem not useful when most people do not share them.

Writers should keep in mind that the same word may have different meanings
when used in different historical contexts.

"The term 'democracy' has fatally misleading associations, and it is not easy
always to remember that the language used by contemporaries about political
parties is vitiated by a constant source of error. The old names, Whig and
Tory, oligarch and democrat, which stand for the aims of parties in one
generation go on being used in the next, when the lines of cleavage have
really shifted and parties are divided on quite other issues. A democrat
was a revolutionary under Peisistratus, a radical under Cleisthenes, and
in the time of Pericles a conservative."
--Francis Cornford (Thucydides Mythistoricus, p. 10)

--Nick

"Nick" wrote in mesage
om...

But 'redefin(ing) the common meaning' of words could be useful for
propaganda.

That`s the point here. Many racists redefine patriotism into nationalism
(zionism) and use it against e.g. Jews.

When there was no state of Israel some racists like e.g Goebbels spread
racial hatred directed against Jews accusing them of "cosmopolitism".

By the way, Jerzy Ciruk's photograph (at ChessBase) shows him to be a
white European. I happen to *appear* much less than Jerzy Ciruk to be
like a Nazi 'superman' and much more like a 'subhuman' as perceived by
by some racists here.

"Nick", I don`t have a photo of you and I don`t know your real name but I
can see that you keep on dividing people by race. I assume that you belong
to W.A.S.Ps what explains a lot of your personal flame-war against abstract
Zionists.

Now when Jews have their own country Israel,

Does Jerzy Ciruk believe that the state of Israel should be *only* for
Jews?
Would Jerzy Ciruk support 'transfer', the right-wing Israeli euphemism for
the proposed forcible mass expulsion of the Palestinians?

Again "Nick", you are officiously interpreting my words.
Once again : in Poland in 1968 "zionism" was used by Polish government to
expel many Poles of Jewish origins from Poland. It`s a historical fact and
not an academic discussion. It wasn`t used to expel any Poles of Arabic
origins from my country.

[snipped your lengthy elaboration]

BTW I am looking forward to a promotion to an "inveterate dishonest troll"
))

Regards,
Jerzy

(Wlodzimierz Holsztynski) wrote in message
snip

Since patriotism is a positive notion, one can be
a patriot of more than one country.

This seems a very loose and generous
interpretation of patriotism and
the concluding sentence just plain wrong.

Is plain right. Use Google and your local
bookstores and libraries. Read Josephs Brodsky's
biography and first of all his poems. Read about
Ignacy (Ignacio) Domeyko, about Tadeusz Kosciuszko...
or, going back to our chess neighborhood, check
on Mieczyslaw (Miguel) Najdorf.

OK. I've read all that and I still think I'm right. And lining up in
my corner we have (drum roll)

Dante Alighieri (referred to elsewhere in this thread)

Bertrand Russell - Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed
for trivial reasons.

Samuel Johnson (of course) - Patriotism is the last refuge of the
scoundrel.

GBS - Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to
all other countries because you were born in it. (Simple and clear)

David Hume - The heights of popularity and patriotism are still the
beaten road to power and tyranny; flattery to treachery; standing
armies to arbitrary government; and the glory of God to the temporal
interest of the clergy.

Herman Goering (my personal favourite, the quote that is, not the man)
- Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor
in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But
after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and
it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to
the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to
tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack
of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in
any country.

This Google thing's great isn't it? I wonder if it'll catch on.

dd (passionately dispassionate) - Whatever that defines it's not
patriotism
Wlod the Imperialist - Oh yes it is
dd - On no it isn't
(They quote scripture at each other ad nauseum/infinitum)

cheers

dd

Nick wrote:

snip


"I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country
and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.
Such a choice may scandalise the modern reader, and he may stretch out his
patriotic hand to the telephone and ring up the police. It would not have
shocked Dante, though. Dante placed Brutus and Cassius in the lowest circle
of Hell because they had chosen to betray their friend Julius Caesar rather
than their country Rome."
--E.M. Forster ('Two Cheers for Democracy')

--Nick

Ach! I've always felt uncomfortable with the French insult 'England-
perfidious'. I'd wager Mr. Forster affected suede shoes..