On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:41:58 -0800, "Tom Klem"
wrote:

Dear Mike,

I never claimed thousands. To be precise, I said we had 1715 players active
at one point (I have the data in a database), and after the La Caissa Nostra
destruction of Chess in Nevada, there were only around 150 or so left in
1998 (or '99). That is to say, there were 1715 members of the USCF paying
dues, and paying ratings fees before all the Sloanberg stuff started here.

Tom Doan posted data here showing that there have never been more than
about 700 USCF members in Nevada at any one time, about the same
number as there are now.

If your number of 1715 has any validity at all, it is the total number
of persons in Nevada who have ever been USCF members over that entire
time period, not at any one time.

I would have to look up all the postings to be exactly sure, but that is the
gist of it.

All numbers were derived from available USCF sources of the time, scanty and
poorly coordinated as they were. The state of USCF computing being what it
was (ripped off by the directors and board members friends, a couple hundred
thousand here, a hundred there) and very few data professionals at work at
USCF HQ (if any) at the time.

I used to laugh at the dBase II formatted files circa 1983 and the
Tournament Administrator software which used them, througout the entire
period of interest. Namely, 1994-1999. Having just downloaded the "gold"
database again today, I can testify that we seem to have progressed. To
dBase III formatted files, circa 1985.

I do realize that you have your own dog in this hunt (you are the consultant
for MSA, yes?) and I admire your efforts, though there are still huge gaps
in the data. I get errors on opponents, dates, and so forth. We will assume
that the data entry clerks are to blame, and not your "triggers".

Harumph??

Also, I didn't say your numbers for Sloanbergs tournaments were wrong as you
assert below. I said your characterizations of causality were in error. I
also have observed Goichberg up close and personal at several of his
tournaments, and I KNOW for a fact that he was feeding upwards of a dozen
people at each one of the ones I was at, having personally observed Brenda
making the food runs.

When Bill Goichberg holds a big tournament in Las Vegas he hires a lot
of assistant TDs to work for him, and of course he has to feed them.
What is your complaint about this?

So before you go off umpty ump ump pumping yourself up, remember this. I
knew personally over six hundred of the adults who left the USCF during this
period, and documented from all available USCF sources, the rest.

Personally.

It is well known that scholastic players seldom renew. So, if you have
700 scholastic players in Nevada, more than 600 will "leave" the USCF
within one year. What do you prove by saying this?

No amount of revisionism on your part, or the dogs of this group, will
change the facts.

--
Tom Klem

"Tom Klem" wrote:
.... I .... have observed Goichberg up close and personal at several
of his
tournaments, and I KNOW for a fact that he was feeding upwards of a dozen
people at each one of the ones I was at, having personally observed Brenda
making the food runs. ....

Just a side note here (I'm not jumping into the main issue). About 20 (or
more) years ago, I was on the staff of a large Goichberg scholastic
tournament in Chicago. As you stated, Brenda made a food run to a local
pizza place. Unfortunately, she was used to New York style pizza, and
didn't realize that Chicago pizza is deep dish. She bought each TD an
entire 12-inch pizza. None of the TDs, even Josh Flores who is famous for
his large-capacity stomach, was able to eat more than half. We ended up
sharing the food with the players.

Bill Smythe

"Sam Sloan" wrote:
Tom Doan posted data here showing that there have never been more than
about 700 USCF members in Nevada at any one time, about the same
number as there are now.

Perhaps Tom Klem was going by tournament participations, which at various
times in the past could have included gazillions of JTPs, who wouldn't be
considered members.

Bill Smythe

Bill,

I appreciate your thought, but I knew the difference then (as well as know
now). 1715 paid up USCF adult members paying dues, and ratings fees circled
the drain for a year and ended up leaving a couple hundred on the rim.

One important point to note: Las Vegas has a lot of out of town tournaments,
especially at that time. Of the seventeen hundred, I personally knew around
six hundred (being a person trying to provide tournaments for them). I
assume that most of the other players had Reno connections (I could look by
Zip Codes, I still have the data), or were foreigners playing in the state
and the country for the first time being put in NV by the staff at New
Whimsy.

Whatever the situation, I have been telling these facts, almost exactly the
same way for nearly ten years now. When you look at the people who lie all
the time on this newsgroup, and who lied about Nevada, you will note that
they never tell the same story twice. Or if they are proven wrong, as in the
case that Sam Sloan had claimed Vaughan was stealing votes by having all the
USCF childrens magazines sent to his house (to get the labels), when in fact
the USCF certified that Vaughan had exactly four magazines coming to his
house; they just switch to a new lie or tactic. How typical.

Also, the same people who lied about Nevada are also the same people who
lied about the finances of the fed. Even Sam Sloan, the biggest paid liar of
the bunch, now admits that the fed lost two million; something which Stan
Vaughan and I were both talking about here for years, and excorciating the
embezzlers and crooks on the Internet since 96.

No aspersions to Bill Smythe, in whose tournament hall I enjoyed one
afternoon back in 97, but you have to ask yourself the question. Does the
person who tells the truth over and over again without variation ring any
bells with you when compared to the liars who can't keep their stories
straight or their fingers out of the USCF money box?


--
Tom Klem

"The Elephant in the Living Room of USCF politics, is unabated hatred and
bigotry."




"Bill Smythe" wrote in message
...
"Sam Sloan" wrote:
Tom Doan posted data here showing that there have never been more than
about 700 USCF members in Nevada at any one time, about the same
number as there are now.

Perhaps Tom Klem was going by tournament participations, which at various
times in the past could have included gazillions of JTPs, who wouldn't be
considered members.

Bill Smythe

Here is one of the posts by Tom Doan on this issue. Tom Doan was in
the process of upgrading the USCF rating system so he had access to
the most complete data.

On 28 Mar 2002 08:50:23 GMT, (Tom Doan) wrote:

Thus, the issues which may seem bizarre (the petitioning for a lower
rating by a Nevada school, and the strange method by which a Nevada
child got a high rating for her age and thus qualified for an
international tournament) are part of a long stream of accusations
against Vaughan, all in the same vein; he is accused of repeatedly
manipulating the rating system, and continuing to do so in Nevada. The
issues about who should have voting rights in Nevada are very much
secondary; it all boils down to whether Vaughan is guilty of repeated
manipulation, in which case he should not be allowed to continue this
pattern, or whether these are false accusations (perhaps caused by
certain eccentricities of Vaughan which have irritated opponents), and
he should be welcomed as a vigorous albeit strange organizer.

Facts which I think aren't in dispute.

1. Stan Vaughan played rated training games with his students. He did
this both while they were provisionally rated and after their ratings
were established. Under the rating system in place in the 1995-96
period, such games during the provisional period would push a child's
rating up. After the kids ratings are established, these games would
have no real effect on ratings, assuming, as was almost always the
case, the coach won.

2. The kids under his tutelage played lots of rated games against each
other. This caused a locallly inflated pool.

3. Nevada kids who played in the National K-6 in Little Rock in 1995
generally played well below their published ratings. The following is
a list of the pre and post ratings. If you consider that the biggest
possible drop in a seven round tournament was 224, some of the rating
drops are truly staggering. Note, also, that a fair number of kids
were hitting rating floors, which weren't exactly designed to apply to
10 year olds.

Pre Post Diff
1089 941 -148
1359 1213 -146
1044 900 -144
1236 1109 -127
1125 1000 -125
1047 927 -120
1052 939 -113
1032 920 -112
1346 1236 -110
1556 1446 -110
1145 1039 -106
1101 1000 -101
1091 1000 -91
1101 1015 -86
1001 921 -80
1472 1401 -71
1471 1400 -71
1819 1763 -56
1105 1054 -51
1221 1200 -21
2000 2000 0
1400 1400 0

4. The results were similar at the National K-6 in Tucson in 1996, as
shown below. Prior to the tournament, however, some parents had
requested rating adjustments from the USCF office, so their kids
wouldn't have to play in the championship sections. The ones I can
identify are the 700 who gained 66, the 800 who gained 12, the 700 who
lost 57 and the 650 who lost 75.

Pre Post Change
1176 1009 -167
1136 1000 -136
827 702 -125
834 722 -112
1042 933 -109
1107 1000 -107
1001 900 -101
1097 1000 -97
1343 1252 -91
1488 1400 -88
930 842 -88
1074 989 -85
1183 1100 -83
1332 1255 -77
1419 1342 -77
650 575 -75
1017 943 -74
571 498 -73
1314 1242 -72
884 817 -67
862 800 -62
700 643 -57
1253 1200 -53
1049 1000 -49
1644 1599 -45
399 354 -45
1444 1400 -44
1442 1400 -42
655 613 -42
1257 1221 -36
1024 990 -34
775 749 -26
1972 1949 -23
1546 1530 -16
1016 1000 -16
840 827 -13
1253 1243 -10
1270 1270 0
1000 1000 0
800 812 12
584 608 24
700 766 66

5. One of Stan Vaughan's students made the top of the 8th and under
list with the following record during her provisional rating period.
All the losses to 2200+ are to Stan Vaughan. This produced an
established rating over 1500. The girl in question would have
qualified for a trip to the World Youth, but her rating was adjusted
by nullifying the results of the string of losses as a de facto match,
which wouldn't have been rated if submitted as such.

1400L
1251L
1050W
unrL
494W
1143L
2261L
2045L
2265L
2265L
2267L
2267L
2267L
2272L
2272L
2274L
2275L
2279L
2279L
2257L


Tom Doan

"Bill Smythe" writes:

"Sam Sloan" wrote:
Tom Doan posted data here showing that there have never been more than
about 700 USCF members in Nevada at any one time, about the same
number as there are now.

Perhaps Tom Klem was going by tournament participations, which at various
times in the past could have included gazillions of JTPs, who wouldn't be
considered members.

When I analyzed a decade's worth of data, Nevada's lapsed member rate
was lower than that in many other states for the period from 1987 to 1996.

However many former members he may have records of, records he has promised
to send me on several occasions so I could compare them with USCF records
(though I've never gotten anything except excuses and more complaints),
Illinois, for example, has far more lapsed members from the same time
period. Nebraska had about as many as Nevada, with a far smaller
total population in the state.

In other words, his claims that Nevada was targeted by USCF policies
are totally bogus.
--
Mike Nolan

Mike,

I never promised to send you anything to compare. It has always been my
policy to not use the members names for anything except promoting
tournaments. Fact is, with your telephone tree of terror (hate mongers
calling up members to kevetch, komplain, and kower the members), I wouldn't
want anyone to know who I considered a constituent.

I remember a little boy in Reno with talent who your child abusing friends
terrorized for a week in 97 just because he was going to play on Stan
Vaughan's Las Vegas Chess Club team in Arizona. I WOULD NEVER REVEAL
ANYBODIES NAMES EXCEPT THE EMBEZZLERS. GET IT?

More revisionist garbage from the garbatge masters.


--
Tom Klem

"What's that humming?"
---Susan, "What Planet are you from?"


"Mike Nolan" wrote in message
...
"Bill Smythe" writes:

"Sam Sloan" wrote:
Tom Doan posted data here showing that there have never been more than
about 700 USCF members in Nevada at any one time, about the same
number as there are now.

Perhaps Tom Klem was going by tournament participations, which at various
times in the past could have included gazillions of JTPs, who wouldn't be
considered members.

When I analyzed a decade's worth of data, Nevada's lapsed member rate
was lower than that in many other states for the period from 1987 to 1996.

However many former members he may have records of, records he has
promised
to send me on several occasions so I could compare them with USCF records
(though I've never gotten anything except excuses and more complaints),
Illinois, for example, has far more lapsed members from the same time
period. Nebraska had about as many as Nevada, with a far smaller
total population in the state.

In other words, his claims that Nevada was targeted by USCF policies
are totally bogus.
--
Mike Nolan

"Tom Klem" writes:

Mike,

I never promised to send you anything to compare.

That's not an accurate statement and you know it.

I think everyone can see who is telling the truth in this exchange,
and it isn't you.
--
Mike Nolan

Ah yes, I'm not telling the truth.

Sure.

Whatever you say Mikey.

Revisionism becomes you.


--
Tom Klem

Hackers, firewalls, traps, grep, xyzzy, Don Quixote. No wonder your little
head is spinning, especially when you use grep.


"Mike Nolan" wrote in message
...
"Tom Klem" writes:

Mike,

I never promised to send you anything to compare.

That's not an accurate statement and you know it.

I think everyone can see who is telling the truth in this exchange,
and it isn't you.
--
Mike Nolan