Spam Scone wrote:
Tom Klem wrote (to Phil Innes):
I have no idea whether or not you wrote
"Did ... really die?"

As I recall, in his scholarly history, 'The Destruction
of the European Jews', Raul Hilberg (who's Jewish) has
arrived at the total of 5.1 million (rather than the
usually cited six million) deaths of Jewish persons
as the consequence of the Nazi genocide.

One academic historian of my acquaintance prefers in
his university lectures to say that 'between five and
six million Jews were killed'.

Of course, the possibility that the usually cited
total of six million Jewish deaths could be somewhat
high does *not* absolve the Nazis of their moral
responsibility for that genocide.

A little time with Google will produce the post, Tom.
I will add that Philth did not originate the thread,
but merely contributed what he probably considered
lighthearted humor about genocide.

My comment here is not intended to be about the dispute
between Neil Brennen and Phil Innes in particular.

I have heard at least several distasteful 'jokes' about
the genocide in such countries as Cambodia and Rwanda.
It seems to me that some people regard those kind of
'jokes' as more acceptable when the genocide's victims
were not Europeans.

"If he hadn't been such a good friend, I would have
laughed out loud. You must be kidding, I said.
*No one in America gives a damn about Rwanda.*"
--Deborah Scroggins (Emma's War, p. 330)
(Deborah Scroggins is a white American journalist
who has covered news stories in Africa.)

--Nick

Nick wrote:
Spam Scone wrote:
Tom Klem wrote (to Phil Innes):
I have no idea whether or not you wrote
"Did ... really die?"

Nick, I have removed my name from the subject thread in an attempt to
control the latest outbreak of Philth Innes trolling.

As I recall, in his scholarly history, 'The Destruction
of the European Jews', Raul Hilberg (who's Jewish) has
arrived at the total of 5.1 million (rather than the
usually cited six million) deaths of Jewish persons
as the consequence of the Nazi genocide.

One academic historian of my acquaintance prefers in
his university lectures to say that 'between five and
six million Jews were killed'.

Of course, the possibility that the usually cited
total of six million Jewish deaths could be somewhat
high does *not* absolve the Nazis of their moral
responsibility for that genocide.

Of course.

A little time with Google will produce the post, Tom.
I will add that Philth did not originate the thread,
but merely contributed what he probably considered
lighthearted humor about genocide.

My comment here is not intended to be about the dispute
between Neil Brennen and Phil Innes in particular.

Thank you.

I have heard at least several distasteful 'jokes' about
the genocide in such countries as Cambodia and Rwanda.
It seems to me that some people regard those kind of
'jokes' as more acceptable when the genocide's victims
were not Europeans.

"If he hadn't been such a good friend, I would have
laughed out loud. You must be kidding, I said.
*No one in America gives a damn about Rwanda.*"
--Deborah Scroggins (Emma's War, p. 330)
(Deborah Scroggins is a white American journalist
who has covered news stories in Africa.)

Genocide is hardly a laughing matter, whereever it happens.

"Tom Klem" wrote in message
news:Cn%3e.52778$AN1.43938@fed1read03...
Apparently, I have no idea. My point was to exort posters and players
alike
to have some consideration for the game of Chess, help promote Chess, and
do
so with kindness and good sportsmanship.

My point is, this kind of hate speech (not by you, but purported in
another
newsgroup to be by you), is exactly what we don't need.

It used to be that whoever uttered the word Hitler, ended the thread.

Let me be the first: Hitler

Well, that didn't work Tom.

As an example of anti-semitism read this weekends New York Times or New York
Daily News, who talk about anti-semiticm in Hungary as the Polgars
experienced it. Even one of them at age 4! Kudos to Jose Cuichi who got them
an invitation to the NY Open, and broke the no-travel outside the country
rule, for the Polgars.

Phil

Tom Klem

I forget which one of the Polgars got it, but a friend of mine here in Vegas
met them right after they arrived in the US, and gave one a very pretty
silver pendant. I have seen it on her on at least one occasion, so I assume
it means something to her.


--
Tom Klem

"The Elephant in the Living Room of USCF politics, is unabated hatred and
bigotry."



"Chess One" wrote in message
news:n1b4e.5362$7b.3907@trndny01...

"Tom Klem" wrote in message
news:Cn%3e.52778$AN1.43938@fed1read03...
Apparently, I have no idea. My point was to exort posters and players
alike
to have some consideration for the game of Chess, help promote Chess,
and
do
so with kindness and good sportsmanship.

My point is, this kind of hate speech (not by you, but purported in
another
newsgroup to be by you), is exactly what we don't need.

It used to be that whoever uttered the word Hitler, ended the thread.

Let me be the first: Hitler

Well, that didn't work Tom.

As an example of anti-semitism read this weekends New York Times or New
York
Daily News, who talk about anti-semiticm in Hungary as the Polgars
experienced it. Even one of them at age 4! Kudos to Jose Cuichi who got
them
an invitation to the NY Open, and broke the no-travel outside the country
rule, for the Polgars.

Phil

Tom Klem

"Tom Klem" wrote in message
news:sRc4e.66001$AN1.5527@fed1read03...
I forget which one of the Polgars got it, but a friend of mine here in
Vegas
met them right after they arrived in the US, and gave one a very pretty
silver pendant. I have seen it on her on at least one occasion, so I
assume
it means something to her.

Laugh - my friend played Judit in a simul in Boston. He was doing very well
but lost the thread, then the game - later we went over it and I found a
convincing line that gave him a win. Pipe-dreams! Of course, if I had been
playing the game I probably wouldn't have seen it OTB

You get the silver-medal Tom for peace-keeping on this occasion. I'm not
sure anyone deserves a gold for ordinary civility.

Phil




--
Tom Klem

"The Elephant in the Living Room of USCF politics, is unabated hatred and
bigotry."

Spam Scone wrote:
Nick wrote:
Spam Scone wrote:
Tom Klem wrote (to Phil Innes):
I have no idea whether or not you wrote
"Did ... really die?"

Nick, I have removed my name from the subject
thread in an attempt to control the latest outbreak
of Philth Innes trolling.

Mr Brennen, I can understand that.

Over the years in rec.games.chess.*, several trolls--
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski, the 'Wlodtroll' (to quote you)
is the most conspicuous--have created threads with my
name (or an epithet about my name) in the subject
headings in order to write insults and lies about me
in those troll threads.

As I recall, in his scholarly history, 'The Destruction
of the European Jews', Raul Hilberg (who's Jewish) has
arrived at the total of 5.1 million (rather than the
usually cited six million) deaths of Jewish persons
as the consequence of the Nazi genocide.

One academic historian of my acquaintance prefers in
his university lectures to say that 'between five and
six million Jews were killed'.

Of course, the possibility that the usually cited
total of six million Jewish deaths could be somewhat
high does *not* absolve the Nazis of their moral
responsibility for that genocide.

Of course.

An academic friend of German Jewish heritage has advised
me that even my citing Raul Hilberg, a historian of Jewish
heritage, with regard to the statistical questions about
Jewish deaths *could* expose me to some baseless accusations
of anti-Semitism from those people who believe that the
'six million' figure must have been set into stone.

A little time with Google will produce the post, Tom.
I will add that Philth did not originate the thread,
but merely contributed what he probably considered
lighthearted humor about genocide.

My comment here is not intended to be about the dispute
between Neil Brennen and Phil Innes in particular.

Thank you.

I have heard at least several distasteful 'jokes' about
the genocide in such countries as Cambodia and Rwanda.
It seems to me that some people regard those kind of
'jokes' as more acceptable when the genocide's victims
were not Europeans.

"If he hadn't been such a good friend, I would have
laughed out loud. You must be kidding, I said.
*No one in America gives a damn about Rwanda.*"
--Deborah Scroggins (Emma's War, p. 330)
(Deborah Scroggins is a white American journalist
who has covered news stories in Africa.)

Genocide is hardly a laughing matter, whereever it happens.

I have to say that it's not only a question of
'where', it's also a question of 'who'.

As far as I can recall, I have read that Europe's Jews
and Europe's Gypsies were killed by the Nazis in more
or less equal proportion of their prewar populations.
Yet the genocide of European Jews has received far
more attention than the genocide of European Gypsies.

Here's a comment by Richard Evans, a Cambridge University
historian of modern Germany and the principal expert
witness *against* David Irving at his libel trial:

"Visiting the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C.,
for example, I was struck by *its marginalization of any
other victims apart from the Jews*, to the extent that
it presented photographs of dead bodies in camps such
as Buchenwald or Dachau as dead Jewish bodies, when in
fact relatively few Jewish prisoners were held there.
*Little attention was paid to the non-Jewish German
victims of Nazism*, from the two hundred thousand
mentally and physically handicapped Germans whom the
Nazis killed in the so-called euthanasia campaign to
the thousands of Communists, Social Democrats, and
others who also met their deaths in the camps.
The German resistance received almost no mention
at all apart from a brief panel on the student
'White Rose' during the war, so the visitor almost
inevitably emerged from the museum with a belief
that all Germans were evil antisemites."
--Richard Evans (Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust,
and the David Irving Trial, pp. 261-2)

When the 1994 genocide began in Rwanda, the US government
soon was able to find out enough of what was happening.
But the US government had made a political decision
*not* to intervene in Rwanda, and so the US government
did what it could, with the apparent complicity of the
'mainstream' US media, to minimise and cover up the extent
of the genocide at first. Years later, Bill Clinton
(who had been the US President in 1994) made a kind
of 'apology' for what the US government had done and
failed to do in response to the 1994 genocide in Rwanda.

I happen to know someone (who *has* lived and worked in
the United States) from Rwanda whose entire family there
was murdered in 1994. Like every other black African
of my acquaintance, he believes that *if* the victims
of the 1994 genocide had been white Europeans rather
than black Africans, then the US government would have
responded quite differently.

--Nick

On 10 Apr 2005 19:15:36 -0700, "Nick"
wrote:

As far as I can recall, I have read that Europe's Jews
and Europe's Gypsies were killed by the Nazis in more
or less equal proportion of their prewar populations.
Yet the genocide of European Jews has received far
more attention than the genocide of European Gypsies.

Two factors may have contributed to this: (1) the *absolute* number
of Jewish victims was greater, and (2) the overall educational level
of European Jews was much higher than that of the Romani, so there
would have been many more published articles, memoirs, etc., by the
Jewish survivors and their friends and relatives. These same factors
may account for the relative lack of publicity accorded the
handicapped victims.

However, few Holocaust accounts fail to mention these (and other)
groups of victims -- I see no evidence of, say, Jewish historians
glossing over this facet of the atrocity.

When the 1994 genocide began in Rwanda, the US government
soon was able to find out enough of what was happening.
But the US government had made a political decision
*not* to intervene in Rwanda, and so the US government
did what it could, with the apparent complicity of the
'mainstream' US media, to minimise and cover up the extent
of the genocide at first. Years later, Bill Clinton
(who had been the US President in 1994) made a kind
of 'apology' for what the US government had done and
failed to do in response to the 1994 genocide in Rwanda.

One need not go back that far to find cases where Western inaction
allowed genocide to go unabated -- for example, in contemporary Sudan.

I happen to know someone (who *has* lived and worked in
the United States) from Rwanda whose entire family there
was murdered in 1994. Like every other black African
of my acquaintance, he believes that *if* the victims
of the 1994 genocide had been white Europeans rather
than black Africans, then the US government would have
responded quite differently.

On the other hand, the US had much more in common with the Christian
Serbs than with their Muslim opposition, and yet we intervened on the
side of the latter.