My Grandfather was German Jewish. A few of my relations died in the
holocaust. However I do not find disputing the number of Jewish people
murdered by the Nazi's to be offensive or hateful.
Five million or six million people tortured, the deed was still
horrific.
Actually Stalin and his communists outdid Hitler in massacring the
Jews and prior to that many of them were killed in Spain by the
Inquisition. Not to mention the persecution they suffered during the
time of Edward Hammer Of The Scots in England.
Since the beginning of time man has hated those perceived as different
and I doubt that labelling this as hate crime will prevent it.
The atrocities of World War II failed to bring humanity to its senses
(recently the Leader of the opposistion in the Uk has been subjected to
anti semetic comments) by the Government led by oh so Christian Tony
Blair. I very much doubt that it will ever end but to accuse a person
of hate speech for disputing figures is foolish and provocative.
BarbaraVilliers

BarbaraVilliers wrote:

My Grandfather was German Jewish. A few of my
relations died in the holocaust. However I do
not find disputing the number of Jewish people
murdered by the Nazi's to be offensive or hateful.

You are not from Poland, where all families were
anihilated. I hardly know anything about my family,
and mostly about my pathernal grandma's side since
a few women survived. Of men in my family only a few
survived who left Poland on time. Of those relatives
who didn't only a few women. My family was assimilated
hence it was easier for them. And still, of a family
of some hundred and fifty or more people only a dozen
or so made it. And of the women, who were still young
or relatively young, not a single one got married,
they went during the WWII through too much, and they
died after the War without their own family or children.

Of well over three million of pre-WWII Polish Jews
only 100-150 thousand had survived the War, or one
out of twenty or so. Just imagine going to school,
having about twenty classmates and then, after War,
you are the only survivor. That's what it was
statistically.

Five million or six million people tortured,
the deed was still horrific.

Six million West and Central European Jews
were murdered during WWII. The whole rich Jewish
culture, hundreds of small Jewish towns, ...
had vanished from the earth forever.

The figure six millions was counted twice,
and it stayed after a verification (the figures for
OTHER ethnic groups went down after the verification).
The number of Soviet Jews nurdered by Gernmans
during WWII will never be known. It is estimated
at additional two-three millions or so. It was a part
of antisemitic communist policy to pretend that Jews
don't exist, except as enemy-Zionists. The term Zionism
is still widely used by antisemites, and on rgc* it is
manipulated by "Nick" Boobaki.

Actually Stalin and his communists outdid Hitler
in massacring the Jews

Stalin outdid Hitler as a murderer in general,
and of many ethnic groups in particular.
He was persecuting Jews intensively. But certainly
Hitler had outdid Stalin in this one respect.

and prior to that many of them were killed in Spain by the
Inquisition. Not to mention the persecution they suffered
during the time of Edward Hammer Of The Scots in England.

Jews were the early experts in running a country's finances.
Thus they were invited by kings and princes to one
country after another, and they would indeed set up
the financial policy. Soon, the local people would
learn this and that, there would be competition
and anti-Jewish reactions. That was of course only
a part of the picture but it strikes my eyes as
an interesting fenomenon, especially that it was
so consistent, it had repeated itself in Africa
and especially many times all over the Europe.

Wlod

BarbaraVilliers wrote:
My Grandfather was German Jewish.
A few of my relations died in the holocaust.
However I do not find disputing the number of Jewish people
murdered by the Nazi's to be offensive or hateful.
Five million or six million people tortured,
the deed was still horrific. ...

As I recall, in his scholarly history, "The Destruction
of the European Jews", Raul Hilberg (who's Jewish) arrived
at the total of some 5.1 million Jewish deaths.

--Nick

Personally with the chaos war brings I think it is impossible to arrive
at an exact figure of Jews murdered in the holocaust, not to mention
the other groups such as gypsies and the retarded who also entered
those camps.
BarbaraVilliers

BarbaraVilliers wrote:

Personally with the chaos war brings I think
it is impossible to arrive at an exact figure
of Jews murdered in the holocaust, not to mention
the other groups such as gypsies and the retarded
who also entered those camps.
BarbaraVilliers

I imagine that they count victims from the records,
which have survived. This would underestimate
the number of victims who were Jews, due to the
sheer, staggering numbers.

In the case of Jews from Poland, Hungary and
the three Baltic countries (Lithuania, Latvia
and Estonia) virtually all Jews were murdered
during WWII. Thus you get a pretty acurate estimate
just by adding the pre-WWII Jewish population in those
countries (I don't know if Baltic Jews were included
into the most solid estimate of 5.9+ millions,
established twice at different times, separated
by years--I think that they were not, because
these three countries became Soviet Republics,
hence Western historians didn't have any access
to the relevant data anymore).

It is possible that the numbers for some other
ethnic groups (not Gypsies) were initially too
high because Jews were counted also as members
of these other groups--but I don't know.

Wlod

Wlod
the Jews in Poland were betrayed by the Poles who refused to help them
fight the Nazi invaders. Poland held against Germany for a short time
whereas the Jews in the ghetto who decided to fight held off the Nazis
longer then expected despite few weapons and near starvation.
BarbaraVilliers

"BarbaraVilliers" wrote in message
oups.com...
Wlod
the Jews in Poland were betrayed by the Poles who refused to help them
fight the Nazi invaders. Poland held against Germany for a short time
whereas the Jews in the ghetto who decided to fight held off the Nazis
longer then expected despite few weapons and near starvation.
BarbaraVilliers

Barabra, I`m afraid that you blame Poles for the crimes committed by German
nazis.
I think it`s high time to stop writing about "Polish death camps" as e.g.
British "Guardian" did several months ago.

BTW one can blame Britain and France for the "success" of German blitzkrieg
in 1939.
They should respond with military action not only with words after Hitler`s
troops invaded Poland on Sept. 1st. Stalin waited 2 weeks and then on Sept.
17th invaded Poland from the East because British and French help for Poland
ended with words.


Regards,

Jerzy

Jerzy
Have you ever read Milia 18 by Leon Uris? (a highly respected author)
The Poles collaborated heavily with their German invaders to denounce
the Jews. I never read the Guardian, my information doesn't come from
there. The only country to really attempt the resistance of the
persecution of the Jews was actually Denamark who hid Jewish people and
tried to defy the German invaders.
Britain did declare war after Germany had invaded Poland and for a
while Britain stood alone in defiance of Germany, other European
countries having succumbed or collaborating with Hitler.
If any country is invaded surely the best thing is for people to put
aside differences to repel and thwart the enemy. Poland was not unlike
much of Europe anti semitic and thus reluctant to assist the Jews in
the ghettos.
regards
BarbaraVilliers

BarbaraVilliers wrote:

Wlod
the Jews in Poland were betrayed by the Poles
who refused to help them fight the Nazi invaders.
Poland held against Germany for a short time
whereas the Jews in the ghetto who decided to
fight held off the Nazis longer then expected
despite few weapons and near starvation.

BarbaraVilliers

And since when, Brabara, are you such an expert
on Poland? And what do you know about the comparison
with the West, say Switzerland, France, etc. --
I'd take Poland over those other countries any time.

It's a shame that people repeat such untrue, harmful
and heartless stereotypic opinions. As in the West,
there is also certain anti-semitism in Poland, but
it's not for you to judge such a complex question.
First try to learn more about these difficult issues.

During WWII, on the Polish teritory (there was no
Poland at the time), for helping or even not telling
on a Jew, the German penalty for Poles was death.
Are you sure that you understand it? Death!

Nevertheless, by far the greatest number of trees for
the Just People were awarded in Israel to Poles.
This despite the fact that many of the heroic Poles
didn't live to claim their tree, or else Poles would
be honored still more.

Yes, there were "szmalcownicy", those who gave Jews
away to Germans. The Polish underground would put them
on trial and execute.

There were also other tragic events of which Poland
is not proud. The years of German occupation were
the years of German intensive efforts to deprave people.
Communists were doing the same, except that in general,
the communist propaganda and methods were more refined
than fascist crude ways, they were more like Boobaki,
full of ****.

Some West European countries, like Denmark, under
relatively easy treatment from Germans, had
cared and succeeded in saving their Jewish citizens.
But they did NOTHING to help Jews, who were not
their citizens. Actually, there were not many such
countries, and certainly not France, which ACTIVELY
gave away ACTIVELY their Jews, under their own Vichy
government!

Observe that during WWII Poland didn't exist.
Observe that no Polish political party would
cooperate with Hitler. Now compare it with
France!

Poland defended itself against Germans and Soviets,
and still longer than France, which had to deal
with Germanay only. Actually, Polish troops
in France were fighting to the last moment,
longer than any other; e.g. Brittish took their
troops back to Brittain earlier. But there were
no French nor Brittish troops fighting in Poland.

Yes, Warsaw Ghetto was fighting much longer than
the whole France. Then Warsaw Uprising lasted still
about twice that long. Jews during the Warsaw Ghetto
uprising had very little in terms of weapons. A team
of about 7-10 people would share one gun. They would
shooot at Germans from very close range only, to
make sure that not a bullet is wasted. But
Warsaw Uprising fighters had still less!!! They
took some weapons from Germans (I am not sure
if they followed any German bureaucratic procedures
like an application etc. of which Germans seem so
fond). But when the great poet and underground
soldier Kamil Baczynski was killed on the first day
of Uprising, he was not armed.

The whole issue of the attitude toward the Jews
in the pre-WWII world and during WWII is a highly
complex. You can guess it just from watching our rgc*
antisemites and the approval which they get from
the chess audience. Just imagine into what kind of
monsters these scumbacks would turn if things became
harder on Jews, just imagine their "smooth" propaganda
and hipocrisy then.

To conclude, what you have said in your post, Barbara,
was ignorant, primitive, and false.

Best regards,

Wlod

PS. Your Brittain tricked Poland into WWII skillfully.
I don't know if you appreciate the sneakiness
of your leaders from the past. They did good job
(for Brittain). They would not get away with that
if Jozef Pilsudski were alive. He saw what was going
to happen before he died, and he even told the Polish
leaders who were going to replace him:

Don't go into this war. Without me you will lose it.

Most likely, in the view of British and French stand,
Pilsudski would avoid a direct confrontation with
Hitler (and Stalin), and would leave the honor of
starting WWII to Brittain and France. Poland would
then save a few million of its citizens, while
France and Brittain would understand the things quite
a bit better, if you got more pounding from Hitler.
Then your opinion also would be more humble and
more reasonable.

"BarbaraVilliers" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerzy
Have you ever read Milia 18 by Leon Uris? (a highly respected author)

Nope, I hear about him for the first time. Can you describe the arguments he
uses ?

The Poles collaborated heavily with their German invaders to denounce
the Jews. I never read the Guardian, my information doesn't come from
there. The only country to really attempt the resistance of the
persecution of the Jews was actually Denamark who hid Jewish people and
tried to defy the German invaders.

I`m not a historian but AFAIK Denmark was not the only country that helped
Jews during WW2. As a matter of fact many Poles did help many Polish Jews to
survive Holocaust.

Britain did declare war after Germany had invaded Poland and for a
while Britain stood alone in defiance of Germany, other European
countries having succumbed or collaborating with Hitler.

Unfortunately you are wrong. Both Britain and France declared war with
Hitler in Sept. 1939 but it was only words.

Hitler had a secret deal with Stalin. See Ribbentrop - Molotov`s pact
Hitler assured Stalin that in the case of war with Poland, Polish allies
won`t help Poland by any military action within two weeks what was written
in the treaty between Poland and its both allies : France and Britain, so it
was a signal for Stalin to invade Poland from the east.

If any country is invaded surely the best thing is for people to put
aside differences to repel and thwart the enemy. Poland was not unlike
much of Europe anti semitic and thus reluctant to assist the Jews in
the ghettos.
regards
BarbaraVilliers

It was Poland who first resisted Hitler`s anschluss of the world but was
betrayed by her allies.

As far as alleged Polish antisemitism is concerned, the propaganda about
"Polish death camps" is today one of the arguments in the hands of
westerners who want to blame Poles for the crimes committed by German nazis.

Jerzy