Neil Brennen wrote (4 Mar 2006 15:48:05 -0800):
Much improved, Dr. Blair, aside from ...
_
I wrote (4 Mar 2006 17:20:13 -0800):
I had no involvement in the composing of a new
Wikipedia entry (unless one counts my complaint
about what Sam Sloan contributed).

_
Neil Brennen wrote (4 Mar 2006 17:29:38 -0800):

I don't recall writing you made the improvements.

_
I don't recall writing that Neil Brennen wrote that I
made the improvements. It looks like we are facing
yet another potential infinite exchange. I propose
that we consider all further I-don't-recall statements
to be entered into the record without actually
attempting to post them all.
_
"I don't recall writing that you wrote that I wrote
that you made the improvements."
_
"I don't recall writing that Neil Brennen wrote
that I wrote that Neil Brennen wrote that I
made the improvements."
_
"I don't recall ..."

Just some quick notes. Including links to "anonymous" reviewers on
some random internet page is not a source. Including links to a
website about Bobby Fischer to back up a fictitious claim, is not a
source. Injecting Keene, into practically every paragraph, when the
subject is Winter, can only be construed as an agenda to smear one or
the other, or both. ?\The preceding unsigned comment was added by
70.31.49.240 (talk . contribs) 14:03, 4 March 2006 (UTC).

You're right, I still know nothing about chess, so look at it from my
perspective. I'm reading this article to learn something about the
subject and I come across all these sentences I listed above. My first
thought is, "Is that right??" But there's no way for me to verify what
you've written. The onus should not be upon me as a reader to do the
research to verify your information. It is your responsibility as an
editor to provide these links or citations so that someone who wants
to verify it can do so. Let me give you an example from an article I
contributed to, John Rollin Ridge. In this edit another user changed
"abolitionist" to "antiabolitionist" because that's what was in the
reference I cited (I had misread it when I originally wrote the
article). Because I had that citation in there, someone was able to
correct my mistake. If you don't cite your sources, there's no way for
anyone to know that you just didn't make the whole thing up. If what
you're writing is all true and accurate, then provide the proof.
Citing a blog or a random post in a newsgroup is not proof, because we
as readers don't know that they didn't make it up either. But
newspapers and magazines employ fact-checkers so their information is
reliable (outside of writers like Jayson Blair). Get it? howcheng
{chat} 08:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

You are wrong again. You have just allowed an unregistered
user who is a well known Internet troll from Canada and who vandalized
almost the entire article, to influence your opinion without checking
it. The quote above is NOT from some unknown person's Blog. It is from
the magazine of the New Jersey State Chess Federation. Obviously, you
did not take a close look at the cite. A quick search of the Internet
will produce a dozen other quotes from other chess players who say
much the same thing. The tendency of Winter to dwell upon spelling
mistakes by Keene is well known. If Keene writes "principle" when he
should have written "principal", Winter will make a big issue over it.

The fact that Bobby Fischer said that Winter is not a real person was
big news in the chess world. Anything Bobby Fischer says, rightly or
wrongly, is news. The link was not to a website about Bobby Fischer.
It was to Bobby Fischer's personal website. By the way, I am a close
personal friend of Bobby Fischer. I have known him since 1956. See
http://www.samsloan.com/post1956.htm

The only thing notable about Winter is that he attacks Keene all the
time. Keene has written 140 books, mostly about chess. All of them
have been attacked by Winter. To write about Winter without mentioning
Keene would be like writing about Boswell without mentioning Samuel
Johnson.

You should be a man about this and admit that you made a serious error
by deleting the Tom Dorsch biography. You should reinstate it, call
for another vote, and allow a non-biased administrator pass upon it.
The fact that the same person made a request for deletion and then
voted six times to delete (you should count them) was a violation of
protocol. Several people on the chess groups have pointed out that the
fact that you deleted the biography of a very well known person like
Tom Dorsch, while allowing Wikipedia to remain filled with biographies
of complete nobodies, shows how ridiculous Wikipedia can be.

I just noticed that you became a Wikipedia administrator only on
December 25, 2005. You deleted the Tom Dorsch biography only four days
later. You should acknowledge that your lack of experience caused you
to make a serious error and reverse it. Sam Sloan 12:30, 5 March 2006
(UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Edward_G._Winter"

I change my mind. Please delete all my posts on wikipedia. I just go
banana when I forget to take my meds. To safeguard against my
questionable behavior in the future, can you please permanently ban me
from wikipedia?

Yours truly,
Sam Sloan

David Ames wrote:
Is Edward G. Winter in any way related to William Winter, author of
Chess for Match Players?

To my knowledge, E. Winter has never answered that question. I recall
one Chess Notes item, in which a reader asked him if the Winter playing
in a 1920s tournament was he. E. Winter replied "No, we had retired by
then."
William Winter (1898-1955), British Champion for 1935 and 1936 and
4-time Olympiad team member for England, was the nephew of Sir James
Barrie, author of "Peter Pan." Beside his chess play, he was noted for
his pro-communist political activities, bohemian lifestyle, and
fondness for drink. He was an excellent writer -- besides the book you
mention he wrote "Kings of Chess," "Modern Master Play" (with F.D.
Yates), "The World Chess Championship 1951" (with R.G. Wade), and
"World Championship Candidates Tournament, 1953" (with D.V. Hooper).
His most famous game is probably his win over Bronstein in the 1946
UK-USSR radio match:

[Event "ENG-URS radio"]
[Site "Soviet Union"]
[Date "1946.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Bronstein, David I"]
[Black "Winter, William"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B76"]
[PlyCount "54"]
[EventDate "1946.??.??"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "2"]
[EventCountry "URS"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3
Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. Nb3 Be6 10. Nd5 Bxd5 11. exd5 Ne5 12. Be2 Qc7 13. O-O
Nc4 14. Bxc4 Qxc4 15. Rad1 Rfc8 16. Rf2 Nd7 17. Bg5 Bxb2 18. Bxe7 Nb6
19. Bxd6 Rd8 20. Na5? (better 20.Qb4=) 20... Qa6 21. Qb4 Rxd6! 22. c4
(22. Qxd6 Qxa5) 22... Bg7 23. Rfd2 Bh6 24.Rd3 Rad8 25. a4 Bf8 26. Qb5
Qxb5 27. axb5 R6d7 0-1

DOES THE SHOE FIT?

Edward Winter probably isn't related to William Winter, but
who knows for sure? Edward is camera-shy and I have never
seen a photo of "the world's greatest chess historian" (pace
IM John Donaldson).

I do know for a fact that someone who sent a letter to Edward
Winter mistakenly addressed the envelope to William Winter.
In his response to this harmless error Edward had a fit.

Sam Sloan wrote (Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:16:03 GMT):
... Howcheng referred to Louis Blair and Randy Bauer
as "meatpuppets".
_
That was at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped...ion/Tom_Dorsch
_
where Howcheng wrote:
_
"When meatpuppets call for deletion, you know it's bad."
howcheng {chat} 20:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
_
I wrote (12 Feb 2006 11:30:34 -0800):
Howcheng did not mention me when he made his
"meatpuppets" comment, and there is no reason to
believe that he had me in mind. I have taken no
part in the Tom Dorsch discussion.
_
Sam Sloan wrote (Sat, 04 Mar 2006 01:50:06 GMT):
Louis Blair was one of the posters, along with Bill Brock,
Randy Bauer, and "Rook wave", who got my highly
acclaimed biography of Tom Dorsch deleted from
Wikipedia.
_
Sam Sloan wrote (Sat, 04 Mar 2006 03:18:00 GMT)
here and at Wikipedia (03:03, 4 March 2006 (UTC)):
Here is what User:Howcheng wrote at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikiped...ion/Tom_Dorsch
_
"The result of the debate was delete. When meatpuppets
call for deletion, you know it's bad. howcheng {chat} 20:09,
29 December 2005 (UTC)"
_
His reference to "meatpuppets" clearly referred to Randy
Bauer. ...
_
The other supposed "meatpuppet" was Louis Blair
_
At Wikipedia, Sam Sloan wrote (12:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
It was only User:Howcheng who called Randy Bauer
and Louis Blair my "meatpuppets".
_
I wrote (4 Mar 2006 14:15:31 -0800):
I had no involvement in the decision to delete the Tom
Dorsch biography.
_
At Wikipedia, I wrote (4 March 2006)
Sam Sloan has repeatedly and falsely connected me
with the decision to delete the Tom Dorsch article.
I had no involvement in that decision.
_
I appealed (4 March 2006) to Howcheng at Wikipedia:
I had absolutely no involvement in the Dom Dorsch
article discussion ..., so I assume that you never
called me a "meatpuppet". Would you be kind
enough to make a statement to that effect on Sam
Sloan's talk page?

_
Finally, Sam Sloan wrote (04:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC))
at Wikipedia:

OK. Apparently I was mistaken. But I most drefinitely
NOT mistaken about User:Howcheng calling Randy
Bauer, who was at that time the Budget Director of
the State of Iowa, my "meatpuppet".

_
So, it has taken three weeks and repeated complaints
to get an acknowledgment from Sam Sloan of an
"apparent" mistake. Rather than wait to see how
much more time goes by before he acknowledges
his mistake here, I am posting this note. Of course,
I can not post an apology on behalf of Sam Sloan.
Only he can do that.

Taylor Kingston wrote:
Rob wrote:
Taylor Kingston wrote:
Rob wrote:
Jerzy wrote:
If you want to see the real Winter website... this is it.

http://tinyurl.com/ns43m


Nice page ! Get ready for rock`n`roll !! ;-)

However it`s a real person named Edgar Winter not a fake one named Edward
Winter ;-)

LOL ! Glad you got my joke.

Just a little albino rock n roll!

"Recently the suspicion has grown that chess historian Edward G.
Winter and rock musician Edgar Winter are actually one and the same
person. The fact that the two are about the same age, live in the same
hemisphere, come from the same part of England (Texas), and have never
been seen together, is considered virtual proof of this." -- from Sam
Sloan's Wikipedia entry on Edward/Edgar Winter.

BRAVO!!! I salute you. Brilliant! Edgar and Edward Winter are one in
the same. Proof being that Edward has never been seen at an Edgar
Winter concert. Additionally, Edgar refuses to play chess in public and
both Edgar and Edward hate sardines on their pizza.

Well, shoot, then I *_can't_* be Edward Winter. I like anchovies on
pizza. Darn! I had so hoped.

Can I be Edgar Winter , then? Perhaps we should have an Edward Spring,
Summer and Fall?
Rob

Comments at Wikipedia:
_
"You ... keep insisting that because I know
nothing about chess, I don't have the authority
to act on those articles. Guess what, you're
wrong. It's about time you learned this fact."
- Howcheng (08:02, 5 March 2006 (UTC))
_
"Keep Deleted the editor requesting undeletion
has a personal disagreement with the subject
of the article, so while it's not autobiographical,
I believe it still falls under the guideline of not
writing about 'subjects in which you are
personally involved' as per WP:AUTO due to
the same potential problems of bias, unverifibilty
and OR." - MartinRe (13:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC))

Rob wrote:


Can I be Edgar Winter , then?

I'm Edgar, and so's my wife!

Greetings,
Ralf

Sam,

Who gives a **** about an "encyclopedia" that is written by committee by
anyone with a computer?

adp


"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...
Edward G. Winter
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edward Winter is a noted journalist and author about chess. Winter is
primarily known for always attacking Grandmaster Raymond Keene. Keene
is the chess columnist for the The Times and The Spectator in London
and has written more than one hundred chess books. For the past more
than 30 years, every time a new book by Keene has come out or a new
article by Keene has been published, Edward Winter has written
articles attacking it.

There is no known or verifiable biographical information on Winter,
not even a birth year, because, for the past 30 years, nobody has met
or seen Edward Winter. Winter writes from a house address in Geneva,
Switzerland. Private detectives, hired by the victims of his frequent
attacks, have staked out that house, hoping to catch a glimpse of
Edward Winter, but nobody has seen him there. There is a difference of
opinion between whether Edward Winter is a real name or a pseudonym.

Keene is convinced that the Edward Winter who attacks him all the time
is the same person as a tournament chess player by that name who had
some run-ins with Keene in the early 1970s. However, the majority view
seems to be that Edward Winter is a pseudonym.

In just the past few years, Edward Winter has branched out and
diversified his activities. Now, he does not only attack Keene. Winter
also attacks Bobby Fischer, Larry Evans and Eric Schiller, although
Keene remains the principal subject of his attacks.

In a radio broadcast from the Philippines in 2003, Bobby Fischer
expressed the opinion that Edward Winter does not exist.

Attention has focused on Taylor Kingston, a chess journalist in
Vermont. Kingston is about the same age that Winter appears to be.
Kingston is from the same part of England that Winter is believed to
be from. Kingston writes in the same style as Winter. Kingston attacks
the same people that Winter attacks, although Kingston also attacks a
few additional people, mostly Americans, that Winter does not attack,
such as Larry Parr and Don Schultz. Also, if anybody writes anything
bad about Edward Winter, Kingston will attack that person while
defending Winter.

Parodies have appeared. Chess politician Tom Dorsch writes articles as
Edward Spring, parodying the style of Edward Winter.

In 1986 at World Chess Olympiad in Dubai, Raymond Keene backed a
candidate for FIDE President. Edward Winter filed an ethics complaint
with the FIDE Congress accusing Keene of unethical conduct in writing
books almost exclusively about opening theory, whereas Winter said
there should be more books about chess history. Keene's opponent was
Florencio Campomanes who Winter supported. Campomanes had Winter's
ethics complaint translated into all five FIDE languages, including
Arabic, and distributed to all the delegates. The showdown came at the
FIDE General Assembly in Dubai. With one hundred FIDE member nations
represented there, not one delegate was willing to speak or to vote in
favor of Winter's ethics complaint.

Winter publishes a regular column called Chess Notes. This column is
exactly what it claims to be, because it contains brief commentaries
usually not more than one or two paragraphs in length attacking
usually insignificant errors and spelling mistakes made by this or
that chess writer. If a book by Keene contains a spelling mistake,
Chess Notes will point it out.

Assessment of the qualities of Edward Winter varies widely. John
Donaldson has called him "the world's greatest chess historian".
However, one reviewer notes: "His attention to the most insignificant
detail is more than apparent. . . . His reviews and criticisms as
contained within this volume can be biting to say the least. In fact
he will probably leave some readers wondering whether the almost
gleeful maliciousness he exhibits in his frequent negative assessments
is perhaps worse than the chess culprits he is critiquing."

In the last few years, the attacks by Winter on his increasingly long
list of perceived enemies has increased, and more and more chess
publications have refused to publish the articles by Edward Winter.
Most recently, ChessCafe' and Hanon Russell Enterprises stopped
publishing anything by Winter and apparently removed the book reviews
by Winter from the archives. Prior to that, from 1998 to 2001, New In
Chess magazine had carried Chess Notes, subject to the strict
condition that Winter not say anything about Keene. It was about that
time that Winter branched out and started attacking other people
instead of just attacking everything by Keene.

Nowadays, no chess magazine in the world is willing to publish Chess
Notes, but Winter is publishing books.

Although Winter has attacked Keene hundreds and possibly even
thousands of times, Keene has rarely said anything about Winter.
However, at http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1013565 Keene
comments at some length. Keene believes that Winter is the same person
as a student who was born in 1956. Keene writes, "Actually I really
don't follow Edward Winter at all. I just see him as a naughty
schoolboy who likes annoying his elders. He was a schoolboy at
Cardinal Newman School in Brighton and taught chess by my friend
Julian Simpole who could beat him with his eyes closed literally.
Winter was about 15 years old when I was already British Champion.

Since Keene became British Champion in 1971, this puts Winter as
having been born in 1956. If true, this means that Winter started
attacking Keene when Winter was in his late teens or early 20s. This
puts Winter at almost exactly the same age as Taylor Kingston (whose
name may also be a pseudonym).


[edit]

Books

Chess Facts and Fables ISBN 0786423102

Commoners and Knaves Further Chess Explorations ISBN 1888690046

Chess Explorations (1996) ISBN 1857441710

A Chess Omnibus ISBN 1888690178

Capablanca: A Compendium of Games, Notes, Articles, Correspondence,
Illustrations and Other Rare Archival Materials on the Cuban Chess
Genius Jose Raul Capablanca, 1888-1942 ISBN 0899504558

Tragic Life And Short Chess Career of James A Leonard, 1841-1862 (with
John S, Hilbert) ISBN 078642298X
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_G._Winter"

Categories: Living people | British chess players | Chess players