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Would anyone (particulary the alleged cc'd parties) care to comment on
the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the following BINFO, which I understand was deleted soon after it was posted? ******* BEGIN QUOTATION BINFO 200603590 Date 2006-09-25 From samsloan Status Standard Release Release Date 2006-10-03 Subject Resolution of the Executive Board -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: Chessoffice@xxxxxxx Subject: Resolution of the Executive Board From: Sam Sloan samsloan@xxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:47:41 -0400 Cc: Joel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Beatchess@xxxxxxx, Rtannerae@xxxxxxx, randallhough@xxxxxxxxx, samsloan@xxxxxxxxxxxx, CHESSJOEL@xxxxxxx, bhall@xxxxxxxxxxx, Chessdon@xxxxxxx, pknight@xxxxxxxxxxx, queencapa@xxxxxxx , USCF BINFO System, Chessoffice@xxxxxxx Delivered-to: USCF BINFO Systemxxxxxxxxx Delivered-to: USCF BINFO System In-reply-to: 3.0.6.32.20060925110012.01f13280@xxxxxxxxxxxx -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 11:00 AM 9/25/2006 -0400, Chessoffice@xxxxxxx wrote:I move in open session that the Board approve the following resolutionwritten by our attorney, Mike Matsler. I vote yes. Bill GoichbergI am deeply discouraged and disappointed that Bill, acting like a bull in a china shop, has brought this into the public forum by making a public motion and posting it to USCF BINFO System, as a result of which this matter will disseminated and the entire world will know about it in due course.The fact is that my relationship with Zsuzsa Polgar (who now calls herself Susan) was not entirely Platonic. I have been discrete and have not revealed to anyone other than a few close friends the true nature of our prior relationship, until now. Now, Bill's public motion effectively forces me to reveal what really happened those many years ago. This will do no good either to me, Zsuzsa, Bill or the USCF, but it appears that now I will have no real choice but to tell the whole story. Sam Sloan END QUOTATION |
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Kindly omit minors from your faux-Sloan comedy routine, yutz.
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Crossposted from the uschess.org forum. It would be nice for USCF to
distance itself from Sloan's racism as well.... But this is progress. Has the Board actually passed a resolution, and if so, which one? ************************************************** ******************** lblair 12454599 Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 160 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ___"... Up to this point, other than one EB member agreeing that we ___should express our standards for Ethics and Decency, I have yet to ___hear from any of the others with regard to their opinions on standards ___of Ethics and Decency." - Mark Nibbelin (Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:09 pm) I am not sure if this is what Mark Nibbelin has in mind, but there has been some recent discussions in the BINFO somewhat along these lines. ___" RESOLUTION OF THE EXECUTIVE BOARD OF ___ THE UNITED STATES CHESS FEDERATION ___. ___WHEREAS, the Executive Board of the United States of America Chess ___Federation ("US Chess Federation") recognizes its obligation to further ___the mission and goals of the US Chess Federation in all areas in which ___it is active, including the fields of education and scholastic chess; ___promoting tournaments and competitions; and expanding public ___awareness of the world of chess; and reconfirms its commitment to ___the policies and standards set forth in the US Chess Federation By ___Laws, Code of Ethics, and Standards of Conduct for the Executive ___Board; and disapproves of conduct which is inimical to the said ___policies and standards or to the organization; its financial and legal ___affairs, or otherwise harmful or damaging to the good reputation of ___the US Chess Federation; and ___. ___WHEREAS, it has come to the attention of the Executive Board that an ___Executive Board Member has posted on the Member's personal web ___site one or more photographs of a prominent member of the US ___Chess Federation, contrary to the wishes of said member, which has ___resulted in threats of legal action against US Chess Federation and ___has otherwise damaged or risks damaging the relationship between ___US Chess Federation and such member; and has otherwise publicly ___disseminated on the Board Member's web site photographs and/or ___statements which many members of the US Chess Federation, ___supporters of the US Chess Federation including schools and other ___educational institutions, and members of the chess playing public ___generally find objectionable and which, in the opinion of the Executive ___Board, risk damaging the reputation of the US Chess Federation as ___well as its business and financial health; ___. ___NOW, THEREFORE, it is ___. ___RESOLVED, that Executive Board Members shall at all times act in a ___manner consistent with the US Chess Federation By-Laws, Code of ___Ethics, and Standards of Conduct and shall not, whether in their ___official capacity as an Executive Board Member, delegate, general ___member of the US Chess Federation, or in their personal capacity, ___engage in any conduct which is inimical to the mission, reputation, or ___business of the US Chess Federation; and it is further ___. ___RESOLVED, that the Executive Board deems it to be a violation of the ___Code of Ethics and the Standards of Conduct for any Executive Board ___Member to disseminate or publish, whether on the member's personal ___web site or otherwise, material that demeans women or children; ___confidential US Chess Federation information, trade secrets or ___proprietary data; or photographs of US Chess Federation members or ___supporters who have notified the Executive Board Member that they ___do not consent to have their photographs published or posted or that ___they revoke any prior permission or authorization; and it is further ___. ___RESOLVED, that no Executive Board Member, in the conduct of the ___members' personal life, business, or affairs, shall represent, whether ___expressly or impliedly, to any person or third party that the Member is ___acting in the Member's official capacity as an Executive Board Member ___of the US Chess Federation or is otherwise acting under the authority ___or approval of the US Chess Federation; and it is further ___. ___RESOLVED, that any conduct by any Executive Board Member ___contrary to the within resolution including without limitation the posting ___of unauthorized photographs or other material damaging to US Chess ___Federation on the members' personal web site is disavowed by the US ___Chess Federation as contrary to its policies and standards, and in such ___cases, the Executive Board may, in its discretion, advise the Board ___Member in question to comply with the standards and policies of the ___US Chess Federation, in default of which charges of misconduct may ___be referred to the Ethics Committee, or the Board of Delegates for ___further action consistent with the standards, policies, and By-Laws of ___the US Chess Federation; provided, however, that the Executive ___Board shall have no obligation to take any affirmative steps to ___monitor or review Executive Board Members' activities that are outside ___the scope of the Executive Board Members' duties; and it is further ___. ___RESOLVED, that the official web site of the US Chess Federation shall ___set forth the following disclaimer: "This is the sole and official web site ___of the United States of America Chess Federation. No other web site is ___authorized to represent itself or otherwise hold itself out, whether ___expressly or impliedly, as being an authorized United States of ___America Chess Federation web site or otherwise as being approved or ___affiliated with the United States of America Chess Federation. The ___United States of America Chess Federation disclaims any ___responsibility or liability for any statements or materials on any web ___site other than the official United States of America Chess Federation ___web site." ___"I vote yes." - Bill Goichberg (Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:50:30 EDT) ___"I vote yes" - Robert Tanner (Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:53:57 EDT) Randall Hough and Joel Channing voted in favor of a very slightly different version of the above. Perhaps they have already voted yes on the above version. A version with more changes has also been advocated. ___"WHEREAS, the Executive Board of the United States of America ___Chess Federation ("US Chess Federation") recognizes its obligation to ___further the mission and goals of the US Chess Federation in all areas ___in which it is active, including the fields of education and scholastic ___chess; promoting tournaments and competitions; and expanding ___public awareness of the world of chess; and reconfirms its ___commitment to the policies and standards set forth in the US Chess ___Federation By-Laws, Code of Ethics, and Standards of Conduct for the ___Executive Board; and disapproves of conduct which is inimical to the ___said policies and standards or to the organization; its financial and ___legal affairs, or otherwise harmful or damaging to the good reputation ___of the US Chess Federation; and ___ ___RESOLVED, that the official web site of the US Chess Federation shall ___set forth the following disclaimer: "This is the sole and official web site ___of the United States of America Chess Federation. No other web site ___is authorized to represent itself or otherwise hold itself out, whether ___expressly or impliedly, as being an authorized United States of ___America Chess Federation web site or otherwise as being approved or ___affiliated with the United States of America Chess Federation. The ___United States of America Chess Federation disclaims any responsibility ___or liability for any statements or materials on any web site other than ___the official United States of America Chess Federation web site;" and ___it is further ___ ___RESOLVED, that Executive Board Members who have their own web ___sites are requested to set forth thereon the following disclaimer: ___"Materials on this web site are put there by (Board Member's Name) ___and in no way should they be interpreted as representing or coming ___from the USCF." ___"I vote yes." - Beatriz Marinello (Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:13:02 -0400) ___"I vote yes" - Don Schultz (Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:18:40 EDT) I have not seen a vote of Sam Sloan. Back to top ************************************************** ******************** tanstaafl 11246770 Joined: 18 Jun 2005 Posts: 1009 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It would be nice if the members of the EB had made a proactive statement. Instead they waited and are now having to react to the negative image we're getting from one of their members. Better late than never, I suppose. The bottom line is that unless we're willing to "go all the way", there's no incentive for him to stop. Any negative attention he gets is STILL ATTENTION. More controversy, more hits for his web site, more mud he can sling in the next election... This resolution DOES give the EB's opinion on the applicability of the code of ethics to situations outside of tournaments. Will this opinion have any effect on how the Ethics Committee considers such charges? It's not part of our bylaws or the Delegates Actions of Continuing Interest, so it's not completely clear. The bylaws do say that EB has the right to assign certain duties and make certain decisions, but they also say that the EB doesn't have the right to make a decision in conflict with a decision of the delegates. So, is this "interpretation" within the scope of the EB's authority (and so could be used to instruct the Ethics Committee) or is it simply a "gesture"? _________________ There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. --- I am the signature virus, please put me in your signature so I can spread. Back to top ************************************************** ******************** mnibb 12818435 Joined: 03 Feb 2005 Posts: 330 Location: Illinois Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lblair wrote: ___"... Up to this point, other than one EB member agreeing that we ___should express our standards for Ethics and Decency, I have yet to ___hear from any of the others with regard to their opinions on standards ___of Ethics and Decency." - Mark Nibbelin (Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:09 pm) I am not sure if this is what Mark Nibbelin has in mind, but there has been some recent discussions in the BINFO somewhat along these lines. ___" RESOLUTION OF THE EXECUTIVE BOARD OF ___ THE UNITED STATES CHESS FEDERATION ___. ___WHEREAS, the Executive Board of the United States of America Chess ___Federation ("US Chess Federation") recognizes its obligation to further ___the mission and goals of the US Chess Federation in all areas in which ___it is active, including the fields of education and scholastic chess; ___promoting tournaments and competitions; and expanding public ___awareness of the world of chess; and reconfirms its commitment to ___the policies and standards set forth in the US Chess Federation By ___Laws, Code of Ethics, and Standards of Conduct for the Executive ___Board; and disapproves of conduct which is inimical to the said ___policies and standards or to the organization; its financial and legal ___affairs, or otherwise harmful or damaging to the good reputation of ___the US Chess Federation; and ___. ___WHEREAS, it has come to the attention of the Executive Board that an ___Executive Board Member has posted on the Member's personal web ___site one or more photographs of a prominent member of the US ___Chess Federation, contrary to the wishes of said member, which has ___resulted in threats of legal action against US Chess Federation and ___has otherwise damaged or risks damaging the relationship between ___US Chess Federation and such member; and has otherwise publicly ___disseminated on the Board Member's web site photographs and/or ___statements which many members of the US Chess Federation, ___supporters of the US Chess Federation including schools and other ___educational institutions, and members of the chess playing public ___generally find objectionable and which, in the opinion of the Executive ___Board, risk damaging the reputation of the US Chess Federation as ___well as its business and financial health; ___. ___NOW, THEREFORE, it is ___. ___RESOLVED, that Executive Board Members shall at all times act in a ___manner consistent with the US Chess Federation By-Laws, Code of ___Ethics, and Standards of Conduct and shall not, whether in their ___official capacity as an Executive Board Member, delegate, general ___member of the US Chess Federation, or in their personal capacity, ___engage in any conduct which is inimical to the mission, reputation, or ___business of the US Chess Federation; and it is further ___. ___RESOLVED, that the Executive Board deems it to be a violation of the ___Code of Ethics and the Standards of Conduct for any Executive Board ___Member to disseminate or publish, whether on the member's personal ___web site or otherwise, material that demeans women or children; ___confidential US Chess Federation information, trade secrets or ___proprietary data; or photographs of US Chess Federation members or ___supporters who have notified the Executive Board Member that they ___do not consent to have their photographs published or posted or that ___they revoke any prior permission or authorization; and it is further ___. ___RESOLVED, that no Executive Board Member, in the conduct of the ___members' personal life, business, or affairs, shall represent, whether ___expressly or impliedly, to any person or third party that the Member is ___acting in the Member's official capacity as an Executive Board Member ___of the US Chess Federation or is otherwise acting under the authority ___or approval of the US Chess Federation; and it is further ___. ___RESOLVED, that any conduct by any Executive Board Member ___contrary to the within resolution including without limitation the posting ___of unauthorized photographs or other material damaging to US Chess ___Federation on the members' personal web site is disavowed by the US ___Chess Federation as contrary to its policies and standards, and in such ___cases, the Executive Board may, in its discretion, advise the Board ___Member in question to comply with the standards and policies of the ___US Chess Federation, in default of which charges of misconduct may ___be referred to the Ethics Committee, or the Board of Delegates for ___further action consistent with the standards, policies, and By-Laws of ___the US Chess Federation; provided, however, that the Executive ___Board shall have no obligation to take any affirmative steps to ___monitor or review Executive Board Members' activities that are outside ___the scope of the Executive Board Members' duties; and it is further ___. ___RESOLVED, that the official web site of the US Chess Federation shall ___set forth the following disclaimer: "This is the sole and official web site ___of the United States of America Chess Federation. No other web site is ___authorized to represent itself or otherwise hold itself out, whether ___expressly or impliedly, as being an authorized United States of ___America Chess Federation web site or otherwise as being approved or ___affiliated with the United States of America Chess Federation. The ___United States of America Chess Federation disclaims any ___responsibility or liability for any statements or materials on any web ___site other than the official United States of America Chess Federation ___web site." ___"I vote yes." - Bill Goichberg (Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:50:30 EDT) ___"I vote yes" - Robert Tanner (Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:53:57 EDT) Randall Hough and Joel Channing voted in favor of a very slightly different version of the above. Perhaps they have already voted yes on the above version. A version with more changes has also been advocated. ___"WHEREAS, the Executive Board of the United States of America ___Chess Federation ("US Chess Federation") recognizes its obligation to ___further the mission and goals of the US Chess Federation in all areas ___in which it is active, including the fields of education and scholastic ___chess; promoting tournaments and competitions; and expanding ___public awareness of the world of chess; and reconfirms its ___commitment to the policies and standards set forth in the US Chess ___Federation By-Laws, Code of Ethics, and Standards of Conduct for the ___Executive Board; and disapproves of conduct which is inimical to the ___said policies and standards or to the organization; its financial and ___legal affairs, or otherwise harmful or damaging to the good reputation ___of the US Chess Federation; and ___ ___RESOLVED, that the official web site of the US Chess Federation shall ___set forth the following disclaimer: "This is the sole and official web site ___of the United States of America Chess Federation. No other web site ___is authorized to represent itself or otherwise hold itself out, whether ___expressly or impliedly, as being an authorized United States of ___America Chess Federation web site or otherwise as being approved or ___affiliated with the United States of America Chess Federation. The ___United States of America Chess Federation disclaims any responsibility ___or liability for any statements or materials on any web site other than ___the official United States of America Chess Federation web site;" and ___it is further ___ ___RESOLVED, that Executive Board Members who have their own web ___sites are requested to set forth thereon the following disclaimer: ___"Materials on this web site are put there by (Board Member's Name) ___and in no way should they be interpreted as representing or coming ___from the USCF." ___"I vote yes." - Beatriz Marinello (Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:13:02 -0400) ___"I vote yes" - Don Schultz (Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:18:40 EDT) I have not seen a vote of Sam Sloan. Based on what you have posted from the BINFO, I am getting a better idea of the sense of Ethics and Decency shared by a majority of the EB. I hope it is understood that the purpose of my earlier post was not to attack the EB, staff of USCF, or scholastic committee, but it was a plea for them to make public what I believed most in leadership of the USCF believe and for the organization to distance itself from the actions and beliefs of one. _________________ 12818435 Mark Nibbelin Scholastic Organizer - http://www.bnasc.org/ |
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On 10 Oct 2006 09:12:15 -0700, "Louis Blair"
wrote: I believe that the first and longer resolution has been passed. ___RESOLVED, that the Executive Board deems it to be a ___violation of the Code of Ethics and the Standards of Conduct ___for any Executive Board Member to disseminate or publish, ___whether on the member's personal web site or otherwise, ___material that demeans women or children; And who decides what material "demeans women and children"? Would a scholarly paper that claimed brain differences between men and women rendered it more likely that men, on the average, will perform better at mathematics, be considered "demeaning"? Would a series of women in funny hats and ridiculous clothes be considered "demeaning"? What if a member formally complained that she *did* find this demeaning? Is truth a sufficient defense against something someone considers "demeaning"? confidential US ___Chess Federation information, trade secrets or proprietary ___data; or photographs of US Chess Federation members or ___supporters who have notified the Executive Board Member ___that they do not consent to have their photographs published ___or posted or that they revoke any prior permission or ___authorization; and it is further Does one have to request permission from someone commonly regarded as a public figure? Can someone commonly regarded as a *public figure* revoke such permission? Could Fischer (assuming he's still a life member) deny the USCF permission to publish his photo on our web site? On Sloan's web site? IMO, the Board needs to have a real lawyer jerk their chain and jerk it hard. ___. ___RESOLVED, that no Executive Board Member, in the ___conduct of the members' personal life, business, or affairs, ___shall represent, whether expressly or impliedly, to any ___person or third party that the Member is acting in the ___Member's official capacity as an Executive Board Member ___of the US Chess Federation or is otherwise acting under ___the authority or approval of the US Chess Federation; and ___it is further ___. ___RESOLVED, that any conduct by any Executive Board ___Member contrary to the within resolution including without ___limitation the posting of unauthorized photographs or other ___material damaging to US Chess Federation And will material critical of USCF policies and actions be considered "damaging"? Will material that say, diminishes the chances of various USCF members to serve as FIDE satraps be considered "damaging"? What pompous and pretentious nonsense! If the Board is determined to write crap like this, why not use plain English? |
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Mike Murray wrote: Would a series of women in funny hats and ridiculous clothes be considered "demeaning"? Isn't that the cover of Ms. Shahade's next book? |
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On 10 Oct 2006 16:42:08 -0700, "Louis Blair"
wrote: Mike Murray wrote (Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:20:45 -0700): And who decides what material "demeans women and children"? If we are talking about actions taken by the board (primarily suggesting that the ethics committee or the delagates do something), I guess it is the board that decides. My point exactly. Would a scholarly paper that claimed brain differences between men and women rendered it more likely that men, on the average, will perform better at mathematics, be considered "demeaning"? Would a series of women in funny hats and ridiculous clothes be considered "demeaning"? What if a member formally complained that she *did* find this demeaning? Is truth a sufficient defense against something someone considers "demeaning"? I, of course, can not answer for the board on something like this, but my impression is that they have in mind more extreme items such as what appeared on Sam Sloan's website. I agree that's probably what they had in mind, but unfortunately, we have no "chess supreme court" to divine the intention of the board. We have to live with what is actually written. As an academic, you surely must be familiar with the myriad abuses committed in the name of regulations ostensibly protecting people from being offended. Free speech is often abrasive, offensive and mistaken. Still beats restriction. Does one have to request permission from someone commonly regarded as a public figure? As I understand it, the picture or pictures was/were not taken by Sam Sloan, and, although there has been talk of Sam Sloan getting permission, no record of such permission has been produced, and the picture-taker denies giving such permission. If the issue is one of copyright, then I have no complaint. However, that doesn't appear to be what our Board's proclamation addressed: "...an Executive Board Member has posted on the Member's personal web site one or more photographs of a prominent member of the US Chess Federation, contrary to the wishes of said member". This says EB Members cannot have pictures of "prominent" members on personal web sites if the "prominent" members object. This says nothing about copyright or proprietary photographs What pompous and pretentious nonsense! If the Board is determined to write crap like this, why not use plain English? What is to be expected when a lawyer is involved? This stuff looks like it was written by a grade school civics teacher pretending to be a lawyer. Oh, well... Seriously though, it was not my idea to post this here at rec.games.chess.politics, but since it has been done, it would probably be worthwhile to add some context: (1) Susan Polgar and Paul Truong have been complaining about a picture or pictures used by Sam Sloan. (2) Various people have been pestering the board to, in some sense, distance itself from Sam Sloan behavior. I am in no position to know, but my guess is that the resolution is primarily intended as an expression of some degree of agreement with those who strongly disapprove of a board member with Sam Sloan's behavior. Or gutless sniveling to avoid a lawsuit. |
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Mike Murray wrote (Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:11:28 -0700):
7 I agree [that Sam Sloan's website is] probably what they 7 had in mind, but unfortunately, we have no "chess supreme 7 court" to divine the intention of the board. We have to live 7 with what is actually written. As an academic, you surely 7 must be familiar with the myriad abuses committed in the 7 name of regulations ostensibly protecting people from being 7 offended. _ As I understand it, this resolution does not give the executive board any new powers. (Indeed, I wonder if it would be possible for the board to give itself powers.) This resolution seems to me to be primarily an expression of disapproval combined with a reminder about powers that already existed - the ability to make suggestions for action by the ethics committee and the delegates. As I understand it, in the case of a board member, the ethics committee itself can not do much more than express disapproval in some formal way. The delegates can initiate a recall process, but there would still be the need to conduct an actual vote by USCF members before anything could happen. In short, it seems to me that the rules place considerable obstacles in the way of anyone who would seek to abuse someone on inappropriate grounds. _ Mike Murray wrote (Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:11:28 -0700): 7 Free speech is often abrasive, offensive and mistaken. 7 Still beats restriction. _ I do not see this as a free speech issue. Sam Sloan can say almost whatever he wants. However, as I understand it, one does not have a constitutional right to be on the USCF board and say whatever one wants. People are commonly voted out of office because of what they say. That is not a violation of free speech. It is part of democracy. _ I wrote (10 Oct 2006 16:42:08 -0700): 7 As I understand it, the picture or pictures was/were not 7 taken by Sam Sloan, and, although there has been talk 7 of Sam Sloan getting permission, no record of such 7 permission has been produced, and the picture-taker 7 denies giving such permission. _ Mike Murray wrote (Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:11:28 -0700): 7 If the issue is one of copyright, then I have no complaint. 7 7 However, that doesn't appear to be what our Board's 7 proclamation addressed: 7 7 "...an Executive Board Member has posted on the Member's 7 personal web site one or more photographs of a prominent 7 member of the US Chess Federation, contrary to the wishes 7 of said member". 7 7 This says EB Members cannot have pictures of "prominent" 7 members on personal web sites if the "prominent" members 7 object. This says nothing about copyright or proprietary 7 photographs _ Mike Murray is not quoting a general rule. He is quoting a reference to a specific situation. It is quite true that a complete discription of the situation is not included, but I think the resolution was intended for those who would not need such a complete description. _ I wrote (10 Oct 2006 16:42:08 -0700): 7 ... it was not my idea to post this here at 7 rec.games.chess.politics, but since it has been done, 7 it would probably be worthwhile to add some context: 7 (1) Susan Polgar and Paul Truong have been 7 complaining about a picture or pictures used by Sam 7 Sloan. (2) Various people have been pestering the 7 board to, in some sense, distance itself from Sam 7 Sloan behavior. 7 7 I am in no position to know, but my guess is that the 7 resolution is primarily intended as an expression of 7 some degree of agreement with those who strongly 7 disapprove of a board member with Sam Sloan's 7 behavior. _ Mike Murray wrote (Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:11:28 -0700): 7 Or gutless sniveling to avoid a lawsuit. _ I do not know whether or not fears of a lawsuit were a factor in the decision to vote for this resolution. _ Mike Murray wrote (Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:11:28 -0700): 7 This stuff looks like it was written by a grade school 7 civics teacher pretending to be a lawyer. Oh, well... _ I've seen references to a "Mike Matsler". Perhaps he is the relevant lawyer. |
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