are you comfortable with the situation ?
I think an issue as important as this should somehow be decided and
not left
open and undecided for so many years.
It's the task of the lawmakers and judges to make
things clear, so people know what's allowed
and what's forbidden.

On Aug 14, 3:29 pm, guenter wrote:
are you comfortable with the situation ?
I think an issue as important as this should somehow be decided and
not left
open and undecided for so many years.
It's the task of the lawmakers and judges to make
things clear, so people know what's allowed
and what's forbidden.

I'm comfortable. I have published famous games of many players before
including Fischer. There is no recognizable legal copyright to the
moves of a game of chess, played by famous people or otherwise.

Using someone else's name is not a copyright violation. Even being
the first to play a combination does not make it copyrightable. It
would be totally uneforceable to claim otherwise.

Now if Fischer made a series of notes about his games and I used them
without his permission that would be a copyright violation. If I used
someone's photo of Fischer without the photographer's permission that
would be a copyright violation.

I'm primarily interested, whether it's possible per se to copyright
chessgames
or chess positions. Independently of the other comparisons mentioned
here.

Aren't chessgames just similar to mathematical,combinatorical
entities which can't be copyrighted ?

Well, commented chessgames or collections of chessgames are different.
But could someone forbid others to publish a special position
which he invented or a special game which he "invented" ?
What about other games then, like Go, checkers, ...,tiktaktoe ?

On Aug 20, 2:35 pm, guenter wrote:
I'm primarily interested, whether it's possible per se to copyright
chessgames
or chess positions. Independently of the other comparisons mentioned
here.

Aren't chessgames just similar to mathematical,combinatorical
entities which can't be copyrighted ?

Well, commented chessgames or collections of chessgames are different.
But could someone forbid others to publish a special position
which he invented or a special game which he "invented" ?
What about other games then, like Go, checkers, ...,tiktaktoe ?

Presently it is not possible to copyright chess positions or chess
games.

Bruce wrote:
On Aug 20, 2:35 pm, guenter wrote:
I'm primarily interested, whether it's possible per se to copyright
chessgames
or chess positions. Independently of the other comparisons mentioned
here.

Aren't chessgames just similar to mathematical,combinatorical
entities which can't be copyrighted ?

Well, commented chessgames or collections of chessgames are different.
But could someone forbid others to publish a special position
which he invented or a special game which he "invented" ?
What about other games then, like Go, checkers, ...,tiktaktoe ?

Presently it is not possible to copyright chess positions or chess
games.


I disagree. You can certainly copyright a composed position or problem.

That doesn't mean you can prohibit someone from playing into that
position in a game - but it does mean that you can prevent someone from
publishing the same position/problem AS a position/problem.

The key difference is between having an idea and reducing it to concrete
form on the one hand and recording the result of some other activity on
the other hand. One is creative - the other is reporting.

--
Kenneth Sloan
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

On Aug 20, 4:35 pm, Kenneth Sloan wrote:
Bruce wrote:
On Aug 20, 2:35 pm, guenter wrote:
I'm primarily interested, whether it's possible per se to copyright
chessgames
or chess positions. Independently of the other comparisons mentioned
here.

Aren't chessgames just similar to mathematical,combinatorical
entities which can't be copyrighted ?

Well, commented chessgames or collections of chessgames are different.
But could someone forbid others to publish a special position
which he invented or a special game which he "invented" ?
What about other games then, like Go, checkers, ...,tiktaktoe ?

Presently it is not possible to copyright chess positions or chess
games.

I disagree. You can certainly copyright a composed position or problem.

That doesn't mean you can prohibit someone from playing into that
position in a game - but it does mean that you can prevent someone from
publishing the same position/problem AS a position/problem.

The key difference is between having an idea and reducing it to concrete
form on the one hand and recording the result of some other activity on
the other hand. One is creative - the other is reporting.

--
Kenneth Sloan
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Can you show any examples where it was successfully done Ken? If so I
will bow to your example.

and does it matter whether those positions or games or endgames
were created by hand or by computer ?

and what about chess-problems : mate in 2 , selfmate,...
are they copyrightable ?

On Aug 21, 8:49 am, guenter wrote:
and does it matter whether those positions or games or endgames
were created by hand or by computer ?

and what about chess-problems : mate in 2 , selfmate,...
are they copyrightable ?

What can be copyrighted are written works specifically created by
someone. If I ran off copies of pages from a book of chess problems
and sold them that someone had composed that would be a copyright
violation because the book contained the collection of created chess
problems.

However it would be very difficult to prove that I was violating
copyright laws by creating my own book of problems, unless there was
nearly identical similarity to the problems in my book and the
problems in someone else's previously created work. There is also
what is called "fair use". That means that you can use small amounts
of copyrighted materials under fair use without violating the law.
For example using a single problem from a collection would probably
qualify as fair use, but including several pages of problems composed
in a copyrighted book by another author in my own book would be a
copyright violation.

Think of it as a person not being able to copyright a word or a short
phrase but if I copy verbatim his/her entire poem or story I would be
violating copyright laws. I can't steal someone else's creative
content. To prove I am in violation however the person would have to
show that his content was so creative and unique that it is obvious
that I stole it from him/her.

In short, a person would have to prove that your problems were so
identical in creative content and there was substantial evidence to
indicate that you had plagiarized them from a copyrighted work for you
to be in trouble.

What you were asking was if it was safe to publish famous games of
chess masters without violating current copyright laws and I said yes,
it is safe to do that. That is not the same as photocopying a book
written by someone else that is copyrighted and using it to instruct
or resell.

And if Ken can point out a single problem that is so creative and
unique that it has been copyrightable I would like to hear about it.
I'm not saying there isn't one, but I would like to know where it is
and who composed it and if anyone ever tried to plagiarize it and lost
in court.

Bruce wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:49 am, guenter wrote:
and does it matter whether those positions or games or endgames
were created by hand or by computer ?

and what about chess-problems : mate in 2 , selfmate,...
are they copyrightable ?

What can be copyrighted are written works specifically created by
someone. If I ran off copies of pages from a book of chess problems
and sold them that someone had composed that would be a copyright
violation because the book contained the collection of created chess
problems.

However it would be very difficult to prove that I was violating
copyright laws by creating my own book of problems, unless there was
nearly identical similarity to the problems in my book and the
problems in someone else's previously created work. There is also
what is called "fair use". That means that you can use small amounts
of copyrighted materials under fair use without violating the law.
For example using a single problem from a collection would probably
qualify as fair use, but including several pages of problems composed
in a copyrighted book by another author in my own book would be a
copyright violation.

You demonstrate a lack of understanding of key elements of "fair use".
No need to read further.


--
Kenneth Sloan
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

On Aug 21, 11:10 pm, Kenneth Sloan wrote:
Bruce wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:49 am, guenter wrote:
and does it matter whether those positions or games or endgames
were created by hand or by computer ?

and what about chess-problems : mate in 2 , selfmate,...
are they copyrightable ?

What can be copyrighted are written works specifically created by
someone. If I ran off copies of pages from a book of chess problems
and sold them that someone had composed that would be a copyright
violation because the book contained the collection of created chess
problems.

However it would be very difficult to prove that I was violating
copyright laws by creating my own book of problems, unless there was
nearly identical similarity to the problems in my book and the
problems in someone else's previously created work. There is also
what is called "fair use". That means that you can use small amounts
of copyrighted materials under fair use without violating the law.
For example using a single problem from a collection would probably
qualify as fair use, but including several pages of problems composed
in a copyrighted book by another author in my own book would be a
copyright violation.

You demonstrate a lack of understanding of key elements of "fair use".
No need to read further.

--
Kenneth Sloan
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you can't cite an example then. As I suspected.