"George John" wrote in message
. ..

"Douglas L Stewart" wrote in message
...
Computers can be very bad in endgames where they cannot calculate far
enough
to see the win.

What sort of ply depth do you think is required for this endgame?

I'm not sure - 20+ to be sure. Obviously 50 would be enough!

If the computer is not playing for a win (it thinks the game is
theoretically drawn) it wouldn't even necessarily try to play forcing moves,
making the game much easier for you to draw.

You have also been practicing this ending for several days based on your
posts, so your results at this point aren't very relevant to the
question
of
whether or not there are insufficient losing chances. The rule book
says
with ample time not ample practice.

Well, the first time I tried I had zero practice, and easily drew.

I did ask my 2275 rated son about this a bit earlier today, and he thinks
the 1500 will easily draw against a 2200.

People seem to have various opinions about that. A 2275 does not
necessarily have a very good perspective into the 1500 mind. I saw a 1400
lose an easily drawn K vs K+rook pawn+wrong color bishop this weekend, even
though the 1400 had ample time. (White pawn on h3, White bishop on g4, White
king on f4, Black king on h5, Black to move and goes to h4 ???)

George John wrote:

I have been playing the Knight side of this K+R+N versus K+R+B endgame
against Fritz. I have found it very easy to draw against Fritz every time.

To be fair, the problem with playing a computer is that it doesn't try to set
traps, since it always sees that the trap doesn't work. I suspect it's much
harder against a human than a computer, oddly enough.

John Fernandez

John,

Do you think you can do better than Fritz 6 on a 512MB, 1.6GHz system?

Yes, because I can set traps, even though they won't work. Fritz doesn't have
the ability to do that, it just plods along playing the best move, waiting for
you to make a mistake. That's not how humans play.

If not, please send me some random positions to try. Maybe the positions I'm
trying are too easy. Also, the position that was on the board from the
actual game in question when the first draw claim was made would be of
interest.

I don't have the position from the game, but I did go through ChessBase to find
all cases where these positions have happened.

I have found 71 positions where the result was not trivial from the position
where R+N vs. R+B is entered. (Note this is at 5AM.) I'll send it over to you.

It seems to me that there are a few positions where the side with the N has to
wriggle out into N vs. R. In a few of these positions, the player has to find
one or two pretty good moves to seal the draw, especially in cases where his
king is at the edge of the board, or his piece coordination is lacking.

I have been making certain my N is on a color opposite the B, and I am
careful to put my K and R on opposite colors, too, whenever there is nothing
better to do. I try to cut off the K with the R, or check the K or chase
the B with the R to burn up moves. So far, these very simple ideas have
worked well against Fritz.

George

It sounds to me like you've already figured out some basic defensive plans.

It seems to me that a player who gets the basic plans down and understands what
to do and what not to do (N vs. R and R vs. R+B practice would also help
greatly), should never lose this against Kasparov, no matter what strength.
Heck, I could probably teach it to someone off the street with greater ease
than the game itself.

That being said, your average C player is going to find some harebrained way to
lose this, maybe even around 1 in 10 times.

John Fernandez

"John Fernandez" wrote in message
...
George John wrote:

I have been playing the Knight side of this K+R+N versus K+R+B endgame
against Fritz. I have found it very easy to draw against Fritz every
time.

To be fair, the problem with playing a computer is that it doesn't try to
set
traps, since it always sees that the trap doesn't work. I suspect it's
much
harder against a human than a computer, oddly enough.

Tonight I set the Fritz 6 "contempt" to its highest setting of 200 (2 pawns)
and also set its aggressiveness up higher. That definitely changed its
style, and it tried a few things that I haven't seen before. I haven't
figured out yet how to tell Fritz to equate a draw with a loss.

George

(Sam Sloan) wrote in message ...
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:03:50 -0400, "StanB"
wrote:

You didn't miss much. I saw him walking into the tourney room with Carol
Jarecki. They were giggling and laughing.

As to Sam, I worry about his health. He seems to have lost weight. Skin and
bones. And sores. On his face. The mind? A mind is a terrible thing to
waste.

StanB

I am fat as a pig. This is my problem. I keep gaining weight. I am not
fat as a cow like Neil Brennen or John Fernandez, but being fat as a
pig is bad enough.


We now have the official distinction between pigs and cows made...by
The Honorary Sam SLoan.

What you saw on my face were not sores. Last Sunday, I took three of
my children swimming in the Astoria Swimming Pool in Astoria Queens
New York. The Astoria Swimming Pool is the largest swimming pool in
New York City. The 1932 Olympic Games were held there.

WHO CARES?!? A little more information than we needed to know. And
which children? Do you even know? There are so many after all. Or are
you sure they were yours? (You didn't happen to borrow any random
neighbor-children did you?)


I was in the pool for several hours with my children. I had not done
this in 40 years in such hot weather. I forgot that I have very fair
skin.


Yeah, and the rest of us don't CARE that you have fair skin!

The next day, my entire body turned completely red. I itched so bad I
could hardly sleep at night.

Full-body herpes? Perhaps you caught it in the swiming pool. Can be
quite tragic.


Yesterday, all my skin was peeling off. As of this morning, most of
the old skin is gone, the sweepers at the Adams Mark Hotel having
swept it up. The itching has subsided.

Again...anyone who cares about Sam's "itch problems"...raise your
hands!


That is what Stan Booz saw.

THANK YOU for the cliarification. I can now get on with the rest of my
life.


Sam Sloan