[...]

After the wall came down I spent some time with a physicist from East
Berlin.

He told me of a Czech bath manufacturing facility, whose foundry produced
iron baths for the entire Soviet Union.

No other baths were on offer anywhere [that is to say, without *special*
people importing them from West Germany] despite the demand for ceramic
ones, and indeed, for the new plastic shower-tubs wieghing one tenth of
the bath units.

Don't you realize that you weaken your case when you grasp at
straws like this. Your 'physicist' was obviously having fun pulling
your leg: Go out and try to buy a ceramic bathtub sometime.

What I don't understand is why, in view of the innumerable real flaws
and idiocies of the lamented 'Social Democracies', you need to
tell such apocryphal anecdotes.

Of course, some such anecdotes, though completely unbelievable,
turned out to be true. Remember the one about the $1000 toilet seats
and the $600 hammers?


This guy [who

I expect you meant to say 'whom', I suppose.

I shall call Bernd

Needless to say, you must protect his privacy...

] worked in a photodiode semiconductor factory in East Berlin as its head
scientist, and his unit produced for the entire Soviet 'Aerospace'
Industry - but that is natural - you don't need lots of electro-optical
facilities making silicon detectors.

But he drove a Trabant car - a 'trabi', which was not the only car
produced behind the curtain, but the only one ordinary people could get.
The black market in trabi parts was enormous, and actually far more
expensive than the officially manufactured ones, which... you are guessing
right... were in limitied supply, despite massive demand from Trabant
owners ...

Shall I tell you a story or two about 3 automobile manufacturers that
operate
from a formerly great U.S. city that now looks like Berlin did in 1945 and
has
been abondoned by Whitey?

"Jürgen R." wrote in message ...
[...]

After the wall came down I spent some time with a physicist from East
Berlin.

He told me of a Czech bath manufacturing facility, whose foundry produced
iron baths for the entire Soviet Union.

No other baths were on offer anywhere [that is to say, without *special*
people importing them from West Germany] despite the demand for ceramic
ones, and indeed, for the new plastic shower-tubs wieghing one tenth of
the bath units.

Don't you realize that you weaken your case when you grasp at
straws like this. Your 'physicist' was obviously having fun pulling
your leg: Go out and try to buy a ceramic bathtub sometime.

I have written 2,000 e-mails on chess subjects alone with people who were
behind the curtain. That's a hell of a lot of straws. But I don't want to
convince you of anything Jürgen, I want to speak of my /experience/ not
belief.

If its convincing you want, have you written extensively with anyone from
the old SU? Or even know them?

What I don't understand is why, in view of the innumerable real flaws
and idiocies of the lamented 'Social Democracies', you need to
tell such apocryphal anecdotes.

Its true that this may seem to be apochrypha, and any single comment on a
bath or availability of car parts can /seem/ the same...

Of course, some such anecdotes, though completely unbelievable,
turned out to be true. Remember the one about the $1000 toilet seats
and the $600 hammers?


This guy [who

I expect you meant to say 'whom', I suppose.

Et in America ego ; (

I shall call Bernd

Needless to say, you must protect his privacy...

Needless to say any physicist could identify him by his first name
But truly needless to say anyone's surname to you - who doubt all, anyway.

] worked in a photodiode semiconductor factory in East Berlin as its head
scientist, and his unit produced for the entire Soviet 'Aerospace'
Industry - but that is natural - you don't need lots of electro-optical
facilities making silicon detectors.

But he drove a Trabant car - a 'trabi', which was not the only car
produced behind the curtain, but the only one ordinary people could get.
The black market in trabi parts was enormous, and actually far more
expensive than the officially manufactured ones, which... you are
guessing right... were in limitied supply, despite massive demand from
Trabant owners ...

Shall I tell you a story or two about 3 automobile manufacturers that
operate
from a formerly great U.S. city that now looks like Berlin did in 1945 and
has
been abondoned by Whitey?

I see! This is a competition. Things were not as I say in the SU because of
instances of Western failure. Where do you live, BTW? But if you must
believe things, let me quote you Russians instead:-

Please put it in a bank... Please, let's put it in a foreign bank.

//Vladimir Putin advising the relatives of those who died on the
nuclear submarine /Kursk/ on what to do with their compensation.

[hint; try Kommersant-Vlast, August 29, 2000]

Surely The Leader can't be wrong?

But maybe you can find this one by yourself:

We wanted the best, but it turned out as always.

//Victor Chernomyrdin,
//Russian prime minister, 1992-1998.

But the main issues here are chessic ones - to the general degree that the
State leaned on Soviet-era players, and the degree to which individuals
complied with it. Did you have views on either of these subjects?


Vykhod est! Phil Innes

"Chess One" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. ..

"Jürgen R." wrote in message
...
[...]

After the wall came down I spent some time with a physicist from East
Berlin.

He told me of a Czech bath manufacturing facility, whose foundry
produced iron baths for the entire Soviet Union.

No other baths were on offer anywhere [that is to say, without *special*
people importing them from West Germany] despite the demand for ceramic
ones, and indeed, for the new plastic shower-tubs wieghing one tenth of
the bath units.

Don't you realize that you weaken your case when you grasp at
straws like this. Your 'physicist' was obviously having fun pulling
your leg: Go out and try to buy a ceramic bathtub sometime.

I have written 2,000 e-mails on chess subjects alone with people who were
behind the curtain. That's a hell of a lot of straws. But I don't want to
convince you of anything Jürgen, I want to speak of my /experience/ not
belief.

If its convincing you want, have you written extensively with anyone from
the old SU? Or even know them?

Well, since I was born there (in Tallinn) and since the place (Munich) where
I am now is inhabited by thousands of recent emigrants from the former USSR
I don't need to write to communicate with 'them'.


I shall call Bernd

Needless to say, you must protect his privacy...

Needless to say any physicist could identify him by his first name
But truly needless to say anyone's surname to you - who doubt all, anyway.

These anecdotes are never traceable to the source. You surely
wouldn't be betraying anyone by naming the apocryphal bathtub
factory in Tchechoslovakia? The factories in these stories
never do have a name, do they?

Remember the radio factory that was given norms to fulfill by weight?
And the 10kg bottom plates they put in the radios. That factory
was also nameless.


] worked in a photodiode semiconductor factory in East Berlin as its head
scientist,

I see - the world famous photodiode scientist whose name
everybody knows.

and his unit produced for the entire Soviet 'Aerospace' Industry - but
that is natural - you don't need lots of electro-optical facilities
making silicon detectors.

But he drove a Trabant car - a 'trabi', which was not the only car
produced behind the curtain, but the only one ordinary people could get.
The black market in trabi parts was enormous, and actually far more
expensive than the officially manufactured ones, which... you are
guessing right... were in limitied supply, despite massive demand from
Trabant owners ...

Shall I tell you a story or two about 3 automobile manufacturers that
operate
from a formerly great U.S. city that now looks like Berlin did in 1945
and has
been abondoned by Whitey?

I see!

No, you don't see. You are missing the point: The
Trabi was, indeed, a joke and became
a symbol for East German industrial backwardness.

The Chrysler Corporation, e.g., is also a joke, one that survives today
only because the state bailed it out. Nor are the cars it makes
much better than a Trabant. The point? Absurdities of this kind
are easily found on both sides of the divide.

This is a competition. Things were not as I say in the SU because of
instances of Western failure. Where do you live, BTW? But if you must
believe things, let me quote you Russians instead:-

I have no reason to believe anything you say, unless you
can give a reliable source.


Please put it in a bank... Please, let's put it in a foreign bank.

//Vladimir Putin advising the relatives of those who died on the
nuclear submarine /Kursk/ on what to do with their compensation.

Invariably the same game. Why do you misrepresent what
is being said? What does it accomplish?

Putin: "Please, put it in the bank. Banks are not safe. Please, put it in a
foreign bank. That doesn't mean you need to deposit this money
outside the country. Here, in Russia. It is safe. And the bank will
operate according to Russian law. And the money will be in Russia..."

So the poor guy is thoroughly confused in the middle of an
extremely emotional meeting.


[hint; try Kommersant-Vlast, August 29, 2000]

Surely The Leader can't be wrong?

But maybe you can find this one by yourself:

We wanted the best, but it turned out as always.

//Victor Chernomyrdin,
//Russian prime minister, 1992-1998.

But the main issues here are chessic ones - to the general degree that the
State leaned on Soviet-era players, and the degree to which individuals
complied with it. Did you have views on either of these subjects?

Yes, my view is that neither you nor Parr knows a thing about it, and that
there is no way that you can verify your conspiracy theories.



Vykhod est! Phil Innes

On May 12, 12:55 pm, Jürgen R. wrote:

But the main issues here are chessic ones - to the general degree that the
State leaned on Soviet-era players, and the degree to which individuals
complied with it. Did you have views on either of these subjects?

Yes, my view is that neither you nor Parr knows a thing about it, and that
there is no way that you can verify your conspiracy theories.


In fact, neither brown-noser Phil IMnes nor parrot Larry
Parr can take the "credit" for inventing those theories. In
some cases, the theories were invented by Larry Evans
and in others it seems that Mr. Evans himself mindlessly
adopted theories crafted by the notorious hack writer
Raymond Keene or even Gary Kasparov. (For further
information, see various and sundry articles by Edward
Winter, which meticulously debunked much of their
lunacy.)


-- help bot

MUNCHIES DEVOURED COMMUNISM

Here is a typed-out copy of one of my NY City
Tribune articles from 1990. It also appeared in
Glasnost News & Review and a couple of other
newspapers that picked it up.

IT WAS AN ATTACK OF THE MUNCHIES THAT DEVOURED COMMUNISM

By Larry Parr

Communism had a lot going for it -- a
totalitarian political doctrine, a utilitarian ethical
code and a brutalitarian leadership. There was even
something called, as in the title of Edward Luttwak's
book "The Grand Strategy of the Soviet Union."

Surely, nothing could stand against a country and
a movement which were blessed with a "grand strategy."

Nothing, that is, except the munchies. Over the
centuries men, women and children got hooked on eating
food. Then they started dressing in non-burlap shirts
and wearing shoes instead of wrapped rags. This
nascent consumerism served human beings well, while
doing the dirty on feudalism and, more recently, on communism.

In the United States the munchies struck citizens
at movies and at celebrations following office softball
games. The German economist, Werner Sombart,
hit it just right. "Socialism," he wrote when
explaining the failure of the doctrine in the United
States, "has always foundered on the shores of roast
beef and apple pie." Bon appetit!

The shores of Sovietland have not been teeming
with steaming roast beef and apple pie these past
seven decades, and the munchies eventually became a
threat. "Eventually," because for several decades
Western intellectuals and even a small percentage of
Soviet citizens believed that roast beef and apple pie
were cooking in the kitchen-of-the-near-future and
were soon to be served.

And, too, back in the 1930s, belt-tightening was
felt to be a progressive thing. It was bracing to
nerve oneself against the munchies and other symptoms
of capitalist slackness.

Beatrice and Sidney Webb, two British Fabians,
enthused about socialism eliminating "capitalist
waste." There would be only one brand of fountain pen
and one lunch menu for working men -- boiled Brussels
sprouts, seasoned with lemon juice and washed down by
weak tea. It was this healthy fare that nourished the
slender and ascetic Webbs until they shuffled off
permanently in their late 80s. The problem was not
merely that the Brussels sprouts (and lemon juice)
were absent but that in the 1950s people stopped
believing that there was anything on the stove in the
kitchen-of-the-near-future. Weak tea, maybe. Roast
beef and apple pie, no.

Today, the munchies dominate the hearts and minds
of Soviet citizens in accord with the principle that
the best way to a man's heart is through his stomach.
The munchies are devouring communism, and
belt-tightening on behalf of a future generaton is
tout passe. People want to eat now.

"Grub first, then ethics," wrote the Marxist
playwright Bertolt Brecht, when explaining the
priorities of the proletariat and, therefore, the
objective necessity of communism. This crimson
materialism, this communist grub-love remains as
distasteful as ever. Yet one cannot help savoring a
delicious irony.

"Gurb first, then ethics" is precisely what
capitalism promises and delivers. It subdues the
munchies and accommodates behavior as diverse as the
charity of Mother Teresa and the rapacity of Michael Milken.

Brecht was a moral gumboil, but he put the point
of his East German, single-brand fountain pen on why
capitalism is historically inevitable. The proletariat
has gotten into the eating habit.










Jürgen R. wrote:
"Chess One" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. ..

"J?rgen R." wrote in message
...
[...]

After the wall came down I spent some time with a physicist from East
Berlin.

He told me of a Czech bath manufacturing facility, whose foundry
produced iron baths for the entire Soviet Union.

No other baths were on offer anywhere [that is to say, without *special*
people importing them from West Germany] despite the demand for ceramic
ones, and indeed, for the new plastic shower-tubs wieghing one tenth of
the bath units.

Don't you realize that you weaken your case when you grasp at
straws like this. Your 'physicist' was obviously having fun pulling
your leg: Go out and try to buy a ceramic bathtub sometime.

I have written 2,000 e-mails on chess subjects alone with people who were
behind the curtain. That's a hell of a lot of straws. But I don't want to
convince you of anything J?rgen, I want to speak of my /experience/ not
belief.

If its convincing you want, have you written extensively with anyone from
the old SU? Or even know them?

Well, since I was born there (in Tallinn) and since the place (Munich) where
I am now is inhabited by thousands of recent emigrants from the former USSR
I don't need to write to communicate with 'them'.


I shall call Bernd

Needless to say, you must protect his privacy...

Needless to say any physicist could identify him by his first name
But truly needless to say anyone's surname to you - who doubt all, anyway.

These anecdotes are never traceable to the source. You surely
wouldn't be betraying anyone by naming the apocryphal bathtub
factory in Tchechoslovakia? The factories in these stories
never do have a name, do they?

Remember the radio factory that was given norms to fulfill by weight?
And the 10kg bottom plates they put in the radios. That factory
was also nameless.


] worked in a photodiode semiconductor factory in East Berlin as its head
scientist,

I see - the world famous photodiode scientist whose name
everybody knows.

and his unit produced for the entire Soviet 'Aerospace' Industry - but
that is natural - you don't need lots of electro-optical facilities
making silicon detectors.

But he drove a Trabant car - a 'trabi', which was not the only car
produced behind the curtain, but the only one ordinary people could get.

"Jürgen R." wrote in message ...

If its convincing you want, have you written extensively with anyone from
the old SU? Or even know them?

Well, since I was born there (in Tallinn) and since the place (Munich)
where
I am now is inhabited by thousands of recent emigrants from the former
USSR
I don't need to write to communicate with 'them'.

It was a question to learn your age and origin; thus ability to assess
information at first hand, and by study.

Another Russian, Solzenhitsyn emigrated to where I am. I really don't think
he made very much up about how it was in the SU. [and btw, also another
Russian friend was from Baku who was a chess partner for a time - he says he
remembers young Garry, but was 'too old' to play him].

I shall call Bernd

Needless to say, you must protect his privacy...

Needless to say any physicist could identify him by his first name
But truly needless to say anyone's surname to you - who doubt all,
anyway.

These anecdotes are never traceable to the source. You surely
wouldn't be betraying anyone by naming the apocryphal bathtub
factory in Tchechoslovakia? The factories in these stories
never do have a name, do they?

But Jurgen, what is the point of identifying anything to someone who already
says 'apocryphal'. And do you think I remember names of defunct Czech
foundaries from the date the Wall came down? What happens for you if you did
know the name? What exactly are you contesting here? That this is atypical?
That market forces actually operated in the SU? If so, I would agree, but
that is what we call the black market, which operated in league with the
official system, tacitly permitted, otherwise everything would stop!

Remember the radio factory that was given norms to fulfill by weight?
And the 10kg bottom plates they put in the radios. That factory
was also nameless.

Ah! So you make an inference of what is not explicit, that all which is not
explicit, is untrue? It is propaganda you think, for me to cite a situation
known /after/ the Wall came down? Why would I need to be creative with facts
then?


] worked in a photodiode semiconductor factory in East Berlin as its
head scientist,

I see - the world famous photodiode scientist whose name
everybody knows.

and his unit produced for the entire Soviet 'Aerospace' Industry - but
that is natural - you don't need lots of electro-optical facilities
making silicon detectors.

But he drove a Trabant car - a 'trabi', which was not the only car
produced behind the curtain, but the only one ordinary people could
get. The black market in trabi parts was enormous, and actually far
more expensive than the officially manufactured ones, which... you are
guessing right... were in limitied supply, despite massive demand from
Trabant owners ...

Shall I tell you a story or two about 3 automobile manufacturers that
operate
from a formerly great U.S. city that now looks like Berlin did in 1945
and has
been abondoned by Whitey?

I see!

No, you don't see. You are missing the point: The
Trabi was, indeed, a joke and became
a symbol for East German industrial backwardness.

The Chrysler Corporation, e.g., is also a joke, one that survives today
only because the state bailed it out. Nor are the cars it makes
much better than a Trabant. The point? Absurdities of this kind
are easily found on both sides of the divide.

But do you really think that Chrysler cars are equivalent of Trabi's? How
fast could a Trabi go without bits falling off, 50k? OK - maybe a new one
could do 65k. But these American cars do 120k without bits coming off. I
drove a big Plymouth [same as Chrysler] for 120 years, and in fact it was an
excellent car.

But sure, governments play in the market to control it - often with basis of
'national interest.'

This is a competition. Things were not as I say in the SU because of
instances of Western failure. Where do you live, BTW? But if you must
believe things, let me quote you Russians instead:-

I have no reason to believe anything you say, unless you
can give a reliable source.


Please put it in a bank... Please, let's put it in a foreign bank.

//Vladimir Putin advising the relatives of those who died on the
nuclear submarine /Kursk/ on what to do with their compensation.

Invariably the same game. Why do you misrepresent what
is being said? What does it accomplish?

But here Jurgen, is where your game is bust. You see - this is not about my
memory of an obscure bath foundry - you challenged me for specifics, but
when you have specifics provided to you, as here you don't even believe
Putin. Then you say 'misrepresent'. This is, I suggest, not a very credible
polemic

Putin: "Please, put it in the bank. Banks are not safe. Please, put it in
a
foreign bank. That doesn't mean you need to deposit this money
outside the country. Here, in Russia. It is safe. And the bank will
operate according to Russian law. And the money will be in Russia..."

And of course, you are not allowed to put the money 'outside the country,'
so that was never any implication of the statement.

So the poor guy is thoroughly confused in the middle of an
extremely emotional meeting.

But if this policy level decision is the basis of activity, are we not now
on the same side of things?

[hint; try Kommersant-Vlast, August 29, 2000]

Surely The Leader can't be wrong?

But maybe you can find this one by yourself:

We wanted the best, but it turned out as always.

//Victor Chernomyrdin,
//Russian prime minister, 1992-1998.

But the main issues here are chessic ones - to the general degree that
the State leaned on Soviet-era players, and the degree to which
individuals complied with it. Did you have views on either of these
subjects?

Yes, my view is that neither you nor Parr knows a thing about it, and that
there is no way that you can verify your conspiracy theories.

He lived in Bloc countries. I merely wrote thousands of e-mails with Russian
chess people.

For myself, these 'misrepresentations' are the direct reports of people I
have written with, supplemented by broader reading of Russian authors and
other reports by people who seem to be otherwise respectable.

At the political level of chess in Bloc countries it is very hard for you, I
think, to argue with Mark Taimanov's own report on it. But I suppose you
could do that - and then you could argue with his source, which was the
contents of his KGB dossier. Then maybe you could move on to Boris Gulko who
also wrote a testimony of his treatment, and manipulations [being beaten up,
his wife too, and other 'deselecting' activities from chess placed upon him]
by KGB and not-so-good chess officials.

Did you ever read of these sorts of things? The Taimanov book is even in
Russian language! If you didn't read anything like this I excuse you as an
innocent. But if you chose not to read such things, then that is not
innocence, that is a wilful ignorance.

So when the question arises of 'influence' over chess by the SU, you may be
tempted to forgive Larry Parr and myself, since what we represent is the
direct witness of Russians themselves. And given this as the background
context of chess in the SU, the questions are not 'if pressure existed?',
but rather to what degree did individual players go along with various
degrees of control over individuals within the system?

It is not for me, and after reading Larry Parr for 10 years, I do not think
it is for him either, any dislike for Russian people. It is dislike for that
horrible system and what it does to individual people.

Cordially, Phil Innes



Vykhod est! Phil Innes

"Chess One" wrote in message
...

But do you really think that Chrysler cars are equivalent of Trabi's? How
fast could a Trabi go without bits falling off, 50k? OK - maybe a new one
could do 65k. But these American cars do 120k without bits coming off. I
drove a big Plymouth [same as Chrysler] for 120 years, and in fact it was
an excellent car.

Laugh! Better correct that one myself - for 12 years. Even I am not that
old! Phil