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FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 13th 03, 06:35 PM
George John
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws


"Jon Haskel" wrote in message
...

Jon,

Do the FIDE rules address this? Is it similar to the USCF rules?


I have been unable to find any specific language that prevents this;
although, there is some general language that *might* cover this. My guess
is that there was once some specific language (which the USCF adopted in
their rules, too), but FIDE dropped it in the 1996 revisions.

George

See:

1) FIDE Code of Ethics

http://www.fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=A10

and

2) FIDE Laws of Chess

http://www.fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=EE1



  #2  
Old July 13th 03, 11:12 PM
John Fernandez
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws

Jon Haskel wrote:

Do the FIDE rules address this? Is it similar to the USCF rules?

Jon Haskel


There are two rules which cover this:

5.2.c. The game is drawn upon agreement between the two players during the
game. This immediately ends the game.

[The key phrase here is "during the game", which in my mind is sufficient to
handle people agreeing to a draw before the game.]

12.1 The players shall take no action that will bring the game of chess into
disrepute.

[A good arbiter catch-all for such situations.]

The problem with USCF's rules is that 14B and 14B6 seem, to me, to be in some
conflict.

John Fernandez
  #3  
Old July 14th 03, 01:13 AM
George John
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws


"John Fernandez" wrote in message
...

-snip-

The problem with USCF's rules is that 14B and 14B6 seem, to me, to be in

some
conflict.


14B is a brief, generic statement. 14B6 is quite specific. They are in no
way in conflict. Generalizations often have exceptions. This is one of
them.

-snip-

George


  #4  
Old July 14th 03, 09:15 AM
John Fernandez
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws

I find nothing vague about a "prearranged" draw.

True enough. However, there in fact situations where it is GOOD for an
organizer pre-arrange draws if he suspects they might happen- in order to
choose the proper boards to display to the crowd.

In my experience "prearranging" sounds worse than it is. The reality is that
its borne out of the situation. It's very easy to pick which games will be
drawn quickly, simply by looking at the ratings and the scores.

A "premature" draw is somewhat vague, but certainly "serious contest" must
have some meaning. I can't see how any 10 move or less game could ever
qualify as a serious contest.

George


True enough, but I don't like the wording. it lends itself to either be
completely ignored, or used way too strongly.

John Fernandez
  #5  
Old July 14th 03, 12:27 PM
LeModernCaveman
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws

It doesn't follow logically, to me. Either you can always agree to a draw,
or
you can't. To give a very vague definition of when you can't is somewhat
contrary to the way the ruleset ought to be designed.


I find nothing vague about a "prearranged" draw.

A "premature" draw is somewhat vague, but certainly "serious contest" must
have some meaning. I can't see how any 10 move or less game could ever
qualify as a serious contest.


Someone here has never played the Muzio Gambit, obviously.


  #6  
Old July 14th 03, 01:07 PM
George John
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws


"LeModernCaveman" wrote in message
...
It doesn't follow logically, to me. Either you can always agree to a

draw,
or
you can't. To give a very vague definition of when you can't is

somewhat
contrary to the way the ruleset ought to be designed.


I find nothing vague about a "prearranged" draw.

A "premature" draw is somewhat vague, but certainly "serious contest"

must
have some meaning. I can't see how any 10 move or less game could ever
qualify as a serious contest.


Someone here has never played the Muzio Gambit, obviously.


You are right. Does this result in a forced draw?

George


  #7  
Old July 14th 03, 06:34 PM
Vince Hart
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws

"George John" wrote in message ...
"John Fernandez" wrote in message
...

John,

-snip-

It doesn't follow logically, to me. Either you can always agree to a draw,

or
you can't. To give a very vague definition of when you can't is somewhat
contrary to the way the ruleset ought to be designed.


I find nothing vague about a "prearranged" draw.

A "premature" draw is somewhat vague, but certainly "serious contest" must
have some meaning. I can't see how any 10 move or less game could ever
qualify as a serious contest.

George



I have only played one serious game in which I agreed to a draw when I
thought there was still play left in the position and time to play it.

A couple years back, I had four points going into the fifth and final
round of the U1800 at the Midwest Class where the prize for first
place was $800. I had white against the only player with three and a
half points. I played 6.Bc4 against his Najdorf and by about the
twelfth move I had a very pleasant position. I was threatening to win
a pawn and the only way he could defend it gave him an extremely
cramped and awkward position. At this point, I offered him a draw,
which he initially declined. After considering the matter for a
couple minutes, he asked me if the offer was still open and we agreed
to a draw.

Sometimes when I think about this game, I wish I had played it out
(particularly since I lost to this player the next couple times we
met). On the other hand, I had already played a lot of chess that
weekend. My first game had gone until two in the morning and since I
was forty-five minutes from the site, I had played my second and third
games with inadequate sleep. I also had to work the next day so I
liked the idea of getting home early. All in all, taking the quick
draw and undisputed first rather than risking a multiplayer-tie for
second was the rational economic decision and my competitive juices
were not flowing hotly enough at that point to ignore the compelling
logic of the situation.

I just think it is foolish to discuss the question of grandmaster
draws without recognizing and accepting that they are rational
economic actors. Just as the pro golfer goes for birdies on easy
holes and pars on the tough holes, an IM or GM trying to make a living
in weekend opens has to decide where it makes sense to try to get his
points. To expect him to do any differently is foolish and any
solution to the problem of short draws has to take that into account.

Vince Hart
  #8  
Old July 14th 03, 06:35 PM
Vince Hart
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws

"George John" wrote in message ...
"John Fernandez" wrote in message
...

John,

-snip-

It doesn't follow logically, to me. Either you can always agree to a draw,

or
you can't. To give a very vague definition of when you can't is somewhat
contrary to the way the ruleset ought to be designed.


I find nothing vague about a "prearranged" draw.

A "premature" draw is somewhat vague, but certainly "serious contest" must
have some meaning. I can't see how any 10 move or less game could ever
qualify as a serious contest.

George


I have only played one serious game in which I agreed to a draw when I
thought there was still play left in the position and time to play it.

A couple years back, I had four points going into the fifth and final
round of the U1800 at the Midwest Class where the prize for first
place was $800. I had white against the only player with three and a
half points. I played 6.Bc4 against his Najdorf and by about the
twelfth move I had a very pleasant position. I was threatening to win
a pawn and the only way he could defend it gave him an extremely
cramped and awkward position. At this point, I offered him a draw,
which he initially declined. After considering the matter for a
couple minutes, he asked me if the offer was still open and we agreed
to a draw.

Sometimes when I think about this game, I wish I had played it out
(particularly since I lost to this player the next couple times we
met). On the other hand, I had already played a lot of chess that
weekend. My first game had gone until two in the morning and since I
was forty-five minutes from the site, I had played my second and third
games with inadequate sleep. I also had to work the next day so I
liked the idea of getting home early. All in all, taking the quick
draw and undisputed first rather than risking a multiplayer-tie for
second was the rational economic decision and my competitive juices
were not flowing hotly enough at that point to ignore the compelling
logic of the situation.

I just think it is foolish to discuss the question of grandmaster
draws without recognizing and accepting that they are rational
economic actors. Just as the pro golfer goes for birdies on easy
holes and pars on the tough holes, an IM or GM trying to make a living
in weekend opens has to decide where it makes sense to try to get his
points. To expect him to do any differently is foolish and any
solution to the problem of short draws has to take that into account.

Vince Hart
  #9  
Old July 14th 03, 09:10 PM
John Fernandez
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws

I have only played one serious game in which I agreed to a draw when I
thought there was still play left in the position and time to play it.


I'll admit, I've made 17 such draws (sub 20 moves) since 1998. Not all of them
without merit, though! One of the 11 movers we had a symmetrical position with
c, d and e pawns traded. Quite a few I found myself in very deep and real
trouble very early against lower rated players and offered a draw to get the
heck out of there. Others, I admit, I'd prearranged, when I got paired against
very good friends or roommates or whatever.

John Fernandez
  #10  
Old July 14th 03, 09:36 PM
Tim Hanke
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Default FIDE rules and pre-arranged draws

"John Fernandez" wrote ...

I'll admit, I've made 17 such draws (sub 20 moves) since 1998. Not all of

them
without merit, though! One of the 11 movers we had a symmetrical position

with
c, d and e pawns traded.


John,

I, too, have agreed to short draws occasionally.

But I would like to correct a general misconception. The truth is, so-called
simple chess positions often contain more than enough difficulty for amateur
players.

Your 11-move game with c, d, and e pawns traded does not impress me as being
an automatic draw. I mean, let's face it, you're not even a national master;
we can probably assume you and your opponent were both far from perfect in
your technique. It's very likely, in my opinion, that you would have won or
lost that game if you had played it out.

Perhaps you don't like playing "simple" positions, or queenless middlegames,
and that may be the true reason you don't always play them out. But if you
were a good endgame player, you would welcome simple positions as ideal
opportunities to grind down your opponent.

In my experience, many endgame positions with few pieces are often won by
one of the two players, if he is persistent--even "theoretically drawn"
positions. Material simplification does not guarantee that the position is
easy to play.

Even positions with kings and two or three pawns, as you well know, can be
quite difficult to play accurately, with many winning chances for the player
who understands them.

Tim Hanke


 




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