"Matt Nemmers" skrev i meddelandet
news:P_nUa.147527$ye4.102609@sccrnsc01...
"Noah Roberts" wrote in message
...

I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that the French
resistance
was one of the pivital forces in that war. If it wasn't for the
French,
at the very least many more of our men would have died, at the
worst we
would have lost. The french acted as couriers, spies, and
repeatedly
threw wrenches in the works of the Nazis. The French people
played a
HUGE part in WWII and probably lost as many, if not more, to the
Germans
during that time then we did.

In fact, here is a quote:
After the war General Dwight D. Eisenhower wrote: "Throughout
France the
Resistance had been of inestimable value in the campaign. Without
their
great assistance the liberation of France would have consumed a
much
longer time and meant greater losses to ourselves."

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FRresistance.htm

And if you actually read that page you will see that the French
that
aided that campaign did so at great cost to themselves.


NR

You made my point in your own argument, Noah. WE were liberating
THEM.
Yeah, they helped, but it was *their* country, for God's sake.

The bottom line is that without the U.S., the French would be
putting
sauerkraut in their crepes right about now. My only complaint is
with the
language of your post. IMHO, you shouldn't go around spouting off
about how
our "friends" have done so much to help us when, for the most part,
all
they've really done is come crying to Big Brother when Germany gets
a
wild-hair and decides to start slapping her around a little.

But in this case Germany got **** for *not* wanting to start a war.



MN

France, Germany, and a lot of other european nations have been your
friends an allies in NATO for 50 years. We all supported you after
9/11 and even sent our troops to Afghanistan to help hunt down the
al-Qaida. That's what long time friends do.

Then, suddenly, the US decides it wants to start another war against


Uh, *Bush* decided that. I was mowing my lawn at the time, and after that,
watching reruns of The Munsters on TV while eating popcorn. I didn't even know
there was any oil to be had in Iraq -- honest!


Iraq. The "evidence" for weapons of mass destruction or connections to
al-Qaida are *very* weak, to say the least. So some of us say "before
we start killing people, lets look at the reasons".

So Bush says "either you are with us, or you are against us!", which
is not the way you deal with your long time friends.
And now you pretend you don't even know us any more. You don't see
anything wrong with that?


You keep getting "me" confused for Bush.
Oh yes, and that thing about "with us or against us" is an old propaganda
trick. BTW, I am me, and you are you, and so George W. Bush is the one you
want to talk to about this.


Yes, I see something wrong with this kind of behavior. Power corrupts! It
appears that the U.S. membership in the U.N. is merely for show. "We" talk the
talk, but walk a very different walk. The same goes for the Geneva
Convention. Many outspoken posters here will wave the flag and proclaim that
"we" are above criticism. "We" proudly display signs saying "we support our
troops" everywhere we go, and the unspoken message is crystal-clear: we don't
want to discuss whether or not war was "correct," just be quiet and pretend we
never make such mistakes. We must go with the flow. We cannot make waves. We
cannot think for ourselves. We must not dare to even think that our leaders
may be fallible, let alone, criticism them publicly while there is a war on. We
must be unthinking automatons. Ask not: what the heck is your country doing?
Ask what you can do to help your country, do whatever it is doing, right or
wrong.

I think this results from a deliberate propaganda campaign by those in power,
and they are just following tried-and-true methods, laid down a century ago.

I know I shouldn't get into this discussion on the French but I will.

I do doubt the French resistance was a decisive or perhaps even much of a
factor in WW2 but I really don't know.

That aside, when I think of the French I think of the Statue of Liberty,
excellent wine, good food and great art and culture.

I also think of people very much like Americans. I know the rudeness of Paris
taxi drivers and smugness of many French but every culture has some people with
similar traits.

My opinion of the French rose exponentially over one particular incident. In
1981 my daughter Kathy was mugged on the French Metro, She was enormously upset
and frightened. The consideration and kindness, by the Paris Police, towards
Kathy was so sincere and well done that there was no lingering trauma; This
experience reenforced by so many other fine French men and French women whom I
have gotten to know has made me forever a friend of the French!

Don Schultz

"NoMoreChess" wrote in message
...

Question: why would a "convoy" of warships leave such men "to their own
devices," even if pressed for time by orders? Surely these ships had some
sort
of (inflatable?) lifeboats they could deploy, or ONE lesser ship could
stay
behind and do something. It's hard to imagine a *convoy* of warships with
zero
lifeboats to spare. Even the Titanic had some lifeboats.

What kind of ship would you leave behind for the Jap sub to sink? Life rafts
are not the order of the day was to full steam ahead. Anyway those ships are
pretty far apart, farther then I can swim, and the guys had life jackets on.

He told of how they all held hands in a large circle so
as to keep together. Several times sharks grabbed someone's legs and
pulled
them to their death.

I'm certainly no expert, but if the sharks smell blood they go into a
feeding
frenzy, and the last thing you want to do is "hold hands" with anyone who
might
have any open wounds -- unless you are the one leaking blood.

It was to keep from separating. Here again you may confuse the ocassional
shark with some movie myth.

When you think about what all those guys went through
in that war, nowadays seems to pale beside it.

Ah, but you were possibly thinking more of the Navy, with its invincible
Aircraft Carriers and handy minesweepers.

Sooner or later those carriers are gonna be sitting ducks for nuclear tipped
missles. In that case, close counts because the tidal wave does the rest.

StanB

"Kevin L. Bachler" wrote:

In article jJiUa.145384$N7.20722@sccrnsc03, "Matt says...
SNIP


Hold up there, cowboy. I seem to remember the good ol' U.S. of A bailing
out the Frenchies a few times after she played ugly college chick to
Germany's drunk frat-boy. Quit acting like you've done so much for us --
you guys haven't done ****.

MN

Not quite true, Matt. There was some help they provided in the revolution. But
that was more to gore the Brits than it was to help us.

That's for sure. If the French king had realized that he
was helping to unleash the concepts of of liberty and justice
for 'all' (read as: the common people) to the world, and what
this would do to his own kingdom a few years later, he would
have *helped* the British! ;-)

"Bo Persson" wrote in message
...


But in this case Germany got **** for *not* wanting to start a war.


Well, DUH.

A country with *their* won-loss record in wars over the last century
SHOULDN'T want to get involved in wars. They've learned their lesson.

MN

"Matt Nemmers" skrev i meddelandet
news:RFxUa.152775$H17.53848@sccrnsc02...
"Bo Persson" wrote in message
...


But in this case Germany got **** for *not* wanting to start a
war.


Well, DUH.

A country with *their* won-loss record in wars over the last century
SHOULDN'T want to get involved in wars. They've learned their
lesson.

MN


OK, now: Is it a good thing or a bad thing that Germany and France
didn't start any wars this year?

If it is a good thing, why is the US administration (and others) so
****ed off?


I just saw this morning that there was a fistfight in the japanese
parliament yesterday, when their government pushed thru a Bush
initiated inititive to send Japanese troups to Iraq. The Japanese
constitution, written by the US in the 1940s, otherwise forbid the
japanese military to go abroad, and risk invading other countries. Now
the US, of all, has asked them to remove that rule...


We all live in interesting times!



Bo Persson

I just saw this morning that there was a fistfight in the japanese
parliament yesterday, when their government pushed thru a Bush
initiated inititive to send Japanese troups to Iraq.

It's a fair guess that that resolution cost the US taxpayer millions & millions
of dollars in behind the scene bribes.

"Chessdon" wrote in message
...

I do doubt the French resistance was a decisive or perhaps even much of a
factor in WW2 but I really don't know.

Exactly what people educated in the olde Eastern Bloc think of the U.S.
contribution during WWII.

My opinion of the French rose exponentially over one particular incident.
In
1981 my daughter Kathy was mugged on the French Metro, She was enormously
upset
and frightened. The consideration and kindness, by the Paris Police,
towards
Kathy was so sincere and well done that there was no lingering trauma;
This
experience reenforced by so many other fine French men and French women
whom I
have gotten to know has made me forever a friend of the French!

People are people the world over. There are good ones and bad ones in every
culture. Judge the governments. There are those that oppress people; there
are those that come to the oppressed people's aid; and, there are those that
stand around with their thumb up their ass.

StanB

"Fifiela" wrote in message
...

I just saw this morning that there was a fistfight in the japanese
parliament yesterday, when their government pushed thru a Bush
initiated inititive to send Japanese troups to Iraq.

It's a fair guess that that resolution cost the US taxpayer millions &
millions
of dollars in behind the scene bribes.

It is more likely that the Japanese were asked to underwrite it themselves
and send money to the U.S. to help defray the costs of the Iraq war.

StanB