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Old July 20th 06, 01:44 AM posted to rec.games.go,soc.culture.japan,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:15:24 GMT, (-) wrote:


(Sam Sloan) wrote:
Background music is "Sakura, Sakura", the
traditional Japanese "Cherry Blossom" song.



Technically speaking, _sakura_ means "Cherry Trees",
not the blossoms. The _sakura_matsuri_ refers to blossoms.




- regards
- jb

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Israelis Are Dying: It Must Be an Escalation
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9587
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Are you sure about this?

My wife, who is Japanese, disagrees.

Sam Sloan
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Old July 20th 06, 03:05 AM posted to rec.games.go,soc.culture.japan,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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(Sam Sloan) wrote:
Background music is "Sakura, Sakura", the
traditional Japanese "Cherry Blossom" song.


(-) wrote:
Technically speaking, _sakura_ means "Cherry Trees",
not the blossoms. The _sakura_matsuri_ refers to blossoms.


(Sam Sloan) wrote:
Are you sure about this?
My wife, who is Japanese, disagrees.



Many Japanese are miseducated on this point. We need to
ask why the tune is cast in a minor key. This is due to the fact
that people notice cherry blossoms or fruit but do not pay much
attention to the trees which deliver those blossoms and fruit.
Timelessness of this melody also suggests the tree rather than
the transient blossoms. It is not essentially about the temporal
blossoms nor the perishable fruit. You can say that temporality
suggests a minor key, however temporality could also be major.
Your wife may lack a proper education, concerning Japanese.



"tweet" wrote:
'sakura' can mean either. However, 'sakura matsuri' means
'cherry blossom festival'. matsuri = festival.



When Japanese hear _sakura_ they can interpret according
to various parts or the whole thing, i.e. _sakura_no_ki_. If, by
various parts, can be _sakura_no_mi_ (_sakurambo_) or can
be _sakura_no_hana_ (cherry blossoms). After all is said and
done, the end of this discussion will associate _sakura_ with
_sakura_no_ki_ which is the entire thing altogether, and not just
limited to the blossoms or fruit. There is a tendency to apprehend
the whole by assembly of parts, then acknowledgement of whole.
Getting to that wholistic apprehension simply takes some time.




- regards
- jb

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Old July 20th 06, 04:34 AM posted to rec.games.go,soc.culture.japan,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Sam Sloan wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:15:24 GMT, (-) wrote:

(Sam Sloan) wrote:
Background music is "Sakura, Sakura", the
traditional Japanese "Cherry Blossom" song.


Technically speaking, _sakura_ means "Cherry Trees",
not the blossoms. The _sakura_matsuri_ refers to blossoms.




- regards
- jb

--------------------------------------------------------------
Israelis Are Dying: It Must Be an Escalation
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=9587
--------------------------------------------------------------


Are you sure about this?

My wife, who is Japanese, disagrees.

Sam Sloan

Who cares ??
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Old July 20th 06, 08:38 AM posted to rec.games.go,soc.culture.japan,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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- wrote:
(Sam Sloan) wrote:
Background music is "Sakura, Sakura", the
traditional Japanese "Cherry Blossom" song.


(-) wrote:
Technically speaking, _sakura_ means "Cherry Trees",


This is imprecise. It means any of flowering cherry; cherry; cherry
blossoms, pink or horse meat in rough order of frequency and depending
on surrounding context (source Nelsons Kanji dictionary). I suspect
the horse meat usage is arcane - never seen it used that way.

If you mean cherry tree or edible cherry there are compounds sakuragi
or sakurambo. However in many cases the ambiguity need not be resolved
to be understood in context.

And in common usage it usually means the blossoms and not the tree. You
have to live in Japan to understand just how important the sakura
matsuri is. Weather forecasters have lost their jobs for failing to
predict the date for the festival correctly. Big parties on ugly blue
polythene under the masses of flowering trees in parks need to be
precisely timed.

not the blossoms. The _sakura_matsuri_ refers to blossoms.


(Sam Sloan) wrote:
Are you sure about this?
My wife, who is Japanese, disagrees.


Many Japanese are miseducated on this point. We need to


In that case so are most Japanese dictionary writers.

ask why the tune is cast in a minor key. This is due to the fact
that people notice cherry blossoms or fruit but do not pay much
attention to the trees which deliver those blossoms and fruit.
Timelessness of this melody also suggests the tree rather than
the transient blossoms. It is not essentially about the temporal
blossoms nor the perishable fruit. You can say that temporality
suggests a minor key, however temporality could also be major.
Your wife may lack a proper education, concerning Japanese.


I was taught that the song is about the sadness of the transient nature
of the beautiful cherry blossoms that are so short lived. Although like
in all good poetry and songs there are ambiguities and nuances that the
tree itself feels ignored.

Regards,
Martin Brown

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Old July 20th 06, 10:07 AM posted to rec.games.go,soc.culture.japan,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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(Sam Sloan) wrote:
Background music is "Sakura, Sakura", the
traditional Japanese "Cherry Blossom" song.


"-" wrote:
(-) wrote:
Technically speaking, _sakura_ means "Cherry Trees", not the blossoms.


"Martin Brown" wrote:
This is imprecise. It means any of flowering cherry; cherry;
cherry blossoms, pink or horse meat in rough order of frequency
and depending on surrounding context (source Nelsons Kanji
dictionary). I suspect the horse meat usage is arcane - never
seen it used that way.



It is true that cherry trees exhibit flowering, and many varieties
also exhibit cherries as well as flowering. It is their nature to do so.
Some forms of cherry wood are also pink as with the color of meat.
At some Rinzai Temples in Kamakura certain trees are exposed to
illustrate the nakedness: this is also why Zen Temples go unpainted.
The wood in an unpainted temple more readily deteriorates, and so
the necessity of wood replacement on a periodic basis: also Zen.
Seeds, rather than blossoms, lead to new trees so the blossoms are
ornamental. Nevertheless, ornamental components are themselves
of artistic merit because they do -NOT- supply portentious indicators.
Wikipedia entry lists -trees- first:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakura

"Sakura ... is the Japanese name for ornamental cherry trees,
Prunus serrulata, and their blossoms. Cherry fruit (known
as sakuranbo) come from a different species of tree."

Key to this definition is its focus on tree: the ornamental cherry tree.
Supplemental to the definition are the blossoms, because the cherry
tree is not technically ornamental unless it "proves itself" by blossoms.
Of photos on that Wikipedia webpage, one mentions "cherry trees",
one mentions "cherry blossoms" and one mentions "cherry trees in
flower." Typically one finds photographs of the trees in flower, yet
those who understand trees also know that trees do not always flower.
You say yourself that the weatherman's prediction is a tricky business.
It is typical of dictionaries to reference "tree" prior to "flower" even

when you simply examine that basic entry for "cherry" in English.
The term "sakura" is now an English word, according to the OED:

"A flowering cherry tree belonging to one of the many varieties
bred from various species of Prunus; also, the blossom or wood
of a tree of this kind."

1911 Encycl. Brit. XV. 175/2 The wood used is generally that of the
cherry-tree, sakura, which has a grain of peculiar evenness and hardness.

The most essential, and most crucial aspects, are usually placed first.



... in common usage it usually means the blossoms and not the tree.
You have to live in Japan to understand just how important the sakura
matsuri is.



Well, we are again speaking of _sakura_matsuri_ which was my
original point. This is when the blossoms are given major emphasis.
Once getting past an impediment of "common usage" we find the facts.
I did live in Japan 30 years ago, and it is still being impressed upon me
today how important -everything- about Japan is, for Japanese people.



Weather forecasters have lost their jobs for failing to predict the date
for the festival correctly. Big parties on ugly blue polythene under the
masses of flowering trees in parks need to be precisely timed.



Not difficult to find a date during April, so this aspect is hyped.
We found the blossoms in full force at Himeji Castle, though time
was passing already for Shizuoka, but blossoms were still in full
force in Hachioji (Tokyo) and at Matsumoto Castle (north of Shizuoka
and Tokyo) owing to cooler climate there. It's not just the weather;
one needs intimate understanding of trees to make proper prediction.
Not all trees blossom at the same time. Kodansha Encyclopedia states:

"There are now about 300 varieties of sakura. The following
are three species admired in Japan:

"The somei yoshino (P. yedoensis) is planted in parks and
along riverbanks. This relatively short-lived variety matures in
about 20 years, reaching a height of about 7 meters (23 ft), and
bears large, pink, single-petaled flowers.

"The yamazakura (P. jamazakura) grows wild in mountainous
areas south from central Honshu and has long been cultivated. It
reaches a height of 20 to 25 meters (66 to 82 ft). Its oblong leaves
have toothed edges and its flowers are pink or nearly white.

"The shidarezakura (P. itosakura) has long been planted in
temple gardens. It reaches a height of some 20 meters (66 ft). Its
thicker branches spread horizontally and its longer, slender
branches hang down vertically. Its blossoms are usually single
and pinkish white, but are occasionally double or red.

"Japanese sakura are said to have first been imported to the
United States in 1862. In 1909 Tokyo presented Washington, DC,
with a goodwill gift of over 2,000 sakura of 11 varieties."



When referencing _sakura_ here, it is obvious Kodansha identifies
species, time to maturity, height, lifetime, etc., not just blossoms.
As any gardener knows, whom the weatherman must consult.




... The _sakura_matsuri_ refers to blossoms.


(Sam Sloan) wrote:
Are you sure about this?
My wife, who is Japanese, disagrees.



"Various other festivals held during April at Shinto shrines
are also referred to as Hana Matsuri." ( Kodansha )



Many Japanese are miseducated on this point.


In that case so are most Japanese dictionary writers.



I do not find that to be the case. In researching T. Mark Hall's
reference to Kodansha Encyclopedia I obtained a trial pass to its
online (abbreviated) version. 23 references to _sakura_ therein:

"Prunus spp. Any of a number of deciduous trees of the
family Rosaceae that grow wild in mountainous areas
throughout Japan and are also widely cultivated. The word
sakura is generally used for those species of cherry
appreciated for the beauty of their blossoms rather than
those grown for their fruit. The wood is used for fine
furniture, carving, and woodblock printing. The sakura
is mentioned frequently in Japanese literature, both ancient
and modern; traditional Japanese values of purity and
simplicity are thought to be reflected in the form and
color of its blossoms. Since it flowers very briefly and
then scatters, the cherry blossom has also become a
symbol of the Japanese appreciation of ephemeral beauty."

So the entry begins with "any of a number of deciduous trees..."
Not until the second sentence do we read of "beauty of their
blossoms." In the fourth sentence we are reminded of certain
"traditional Japanese values" associated with -color- of blossoms.
That Kodansha Encyclopedia entry -subsequently- follows with:

"Cherry-blossom-viewing parties (see hanami) were popular
among the Japanese nobility in ancient times, and by the
early 17th century the custom had spread to the common
people. Picnicking and drinking sake with family, friends,
and co-workers beneath flowering cherry trees remains a
popular rite of springtime in contemporary Japan."


This does not suggest sadness, as you will next hypothesize.




We need to
ask why the tune is cast in a minor key. This is due to the fact
that people notice cherry blossoms or fruit but do not pay much
attention to the trees which deliver those blossoms and fruit.
Timelessness of this melody also suggests the tree rather than
the transient blossoms. It is not essentially about the temporal
blossoms nor the perishable fruit. You can say that temporality
suggests a minor key, however temporality could also be major.
Your wife may lack a proper education, concerning Japanese.


I was taught that the song is about the sadness of the transient
nature of the beautiful cherry blossoms that are so short lived.
Although like in all good poetry and songs there are ambiguities
and nuances that the tree itself feels ignored.



"Transient nature" (ephemeral beauty) is not sadness. You
cannot appreciate the moment of cherry blossoms if you are sad.
It would be sad if they did not blossom at all, so their aspect of
being "short lived" is merely their nature, which cannot be sad.
The _sakura_matsuri_ is a festival time, which is rather merry.
The source of sadness in the minor key chosen for the famous
_sakura_ tune stems from a perspective of elderly maturity which
views youth of today repeating the same mistakes as their elders.
The mistakes essentially were not understanding the fundamentals.
New York has a "Sakura Park" characterized by its trees always
planted there. It does not cease to be a park without blossoms.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tr...citywalks.html




- regards
- jb

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Old July 21st 06, 06:35 PM posted to rec.games.go,soc.culture.japan,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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"Robert" wrote:

You might also check the meaning of the word "sakurabana".


Or even kokakabana.

Cheers, Roy


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Old July 21st 06, 06:43 PM posted to rec.games.go,soc.culture.japan,rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Roy Schmidt wrote:
"Robert" wrote:

You might also check the meaning of the word "sakurabana".


Or even kokakabana.


You mean the Copa? Copacabana? The hottest spot north of Havana?

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