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Old March 8th 07, 12:16 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnybear
MonRoi is less of a concern than listening devices
because it has a visual display. Someone who cheats via a "modified"
Monroi -- presumably by being able to analyze on it, or receive an
accomplice's remote analysis or text messages -- is taking a big risk
that an opponent, TD or passer-by might happen to see the display with
some tell-tale information visible on it.

The downside of Monroi is that I heard it can be used to communicate
ongoing game scores and moves to remote locations -- thereby solving
the cheater's problem of how to send information about the
current board position to a remote accomplice. I'd also heard that
DGT boards were being banned at some tournaments for this very reason.
This raises a problem which, frankly, I had not thought of before.

The MonRoi solves the cheater's problem of how to send the moves to an
accomplice. With that solved, the rest is easy. I assume that while it
may be possible to detect transmissions out of the tournament hall, it
would be virtually impossible to determine if any moves are being
transmitted into the playing area.

Does this mean that MonRois have to be banned, even in major
tournaments?

Sam Sloan

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Old March 8th 07, 05:51 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

On Mar 8, 7:16 am, "samsloan" wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnybear
MonRoi is less of a concern than listening devices
because it has a visual display. Someone who cheats via a "modified"
Monroi -- presumably by being able to analyze on it, or receive an
accomplice's remote analysis or text messages -- is taking a big risk
that an opponent, TD or passer-by might happen to see the display with
some tell-tale information visible on it.

The downside of Monroi is that I heard it can be used to communicate
ongoing game scores and moves to remote locations -- thereby solving
the cheater's problem of how to send information about the
current board position to a remote accomplice. I'd also heard that
DGT boards were being banned at some tournaments for this very reason.

This raises a problem which, frankly, I had not thought of before.

The MonRoi solves the cheater's problem of how to send the moves to an
accomplice. With that solved, the rest is easy. I assume that while it
may be possible to detect transmissions out of the tournament hall, it
would be virtually impossible to determine if any moves are being
transmitted into the playing area.

Does this mean that MonRois have to be banned, even in major
tournaments?

Sam Sloan


The usual 'I heard' BS from people not in the know.

As usual, Sam, don't let the FACTS get in the way:

"While in the recording mode, MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager only
enables the recording capabilities. It disables any programs that
could help a chess player during the game. It also disables access to
information from the outside sources."

DIRECT FROM THEIR WEB SITE.

You are by far the WORST propogator of misinformation and should be
summarily dismissed from the Executive Board ASAP.


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Old March 8th 07, 05:53 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

On Mar 8, 12:51 pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 8, 7:16 am, "samsloan" wrote:





Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnybear
MonRoi is less of a concern than listening devices
because it has a visual display. Someone who cheats via a "modified"
Monroi -- presumably by being able to analyze on it, or receive an
accomplice's remote analysis or text messages -- is taking a big risk
that an opponent, TD or passer-by might happen to see the display with
some tell-tale information visible on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnybear

The downside of Monroi is that I heard it can be used to communicate
ongoing game scores and moves to remote locations -- thereby solving
the cheater's problem of how to send information about the
current board position to a remote accomplice. I'd also heard that
DGT boards were being banned at some tournaments for this very reason.


This raises a problem which, frankly, I had not thought of before.


The MonRoi solves the cheater's problem of how to send the moves to an
accomplice. With that solved, the rest is easy. I assume that while it
may be possible to detect transmissions out of the tournament hall, it
would be virtually impossible to determine if any moves are being
transmitted into the playing area.


Does this mean that MonRois have to be banned, even in major
tournaments?


Sam Sloan


The usual 'I heard' BS from people not in the know.

As usual, Sam, don't let the FACTS get in the way:

"While in the recording mode, MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager only
enables the recording capabilities. It disables any programs that
could help a chess player during the game. It also disables access to
information from the outside sources."

DIRECT FROM THEIR WEB SITE.

You are by far the WORST propogator of misinformation and should be
summarily dismissed from the Executive Board ASAP.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


And they also claim it to be a tamper-free device.

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Old March 8th 07, 07:05 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

On 8 Mar 2007 09:53:31 -0800, "
wrote:


As usual, Sam, don't let the FACTS get in the way:


"While in the recording mode, MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager only
enables the recording capabilities. It disables any programs that
could help a chess player during the game. It also disables access to
information from the outside sources."


You're missing one major point in Sloan's post. The device
*transmits* the game to a hub. One major problem of cheating is
getting the position to a conspirator *outside* the playing room,
where that player can analyze the position with a computer. If
someone hijacks that transmission, that's one cheater's problem
solved.


And they also claim it to be a tamper-free device.


If you believe that, you may be in a position to win fifty grand from
*Kenneth* Sloan, who happens to be a professor of Computer Science.
(see the USCF Issues page).

I think it would be more correct to say something like, "MonRoi has
taken what they believe to be effective measures to make their device
tamper-resistant".
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Old March 8th 07, 08:31 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

On Mar 8, 2:05 pm, Mike Murray wrote:
On 8 Mar 2007 09:53:31 -0800, "

wrote:
As usual, Sam, don't let the FACTS get in the way:
"While in the recording mode, MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager only
enables the recording capabilities. It disables any programs that
could help a chess player during the game. It also disables access to
information from the outside sources."


You're missing one major point in Sloan's post. The device
*transmits* the game to a hub. One major problem of cheating is
getting the position to a conspirator *outside* the playing room,
where that player can analyze the position with a computer. If
someone hijacks that transmission, that's one cheater's problem
solved.

And they also claim it to be a tamper-free device.


If you believe that, you may be in a position to win fifty grand from
*Kenneth* Sloan, who happens to be a professor of Computer Science.
(see the USCF Issues page).

I think it would be more correct to say something like, "MonRoi has
taken what they believe to be effective measures to make their device
tamper-resistant".


I did not miss that 'point' which is not really a point, and I didn't
say it. They did, on their site:

"...they also claim...".

And Sam's implication by this statement:

"I assume that while it may be possible to detect transmissions out of
the tournament hall, it would be virtually impossible to determine if
any moves are being transmitted into the playing area."

So, at some point we have to take the technology at face value. But my
issue is that Sam, as usual, uses the 'I heard' yadda yadda yadda line
of logic to put forward an argument or to start a ****-storm of some
kind that he has no business or expertise doing.

And getting a position to someone outside the hall is trivial. I can
walk up to ANY board in a playing hall, memorize it easily, and leave
the playing hall. The trick is to get the moves to the player. MonRoi,
in recording mode, does not accept moves from 'information from
outside sources', if you believe the advertising.

Now, the questions to ask is:

Can a player using a MonRoi Personal Chess Manager during play switch
it from recording mode to another mode where a transmission of a move
can be received?

Can a player using a MoRoi device stealthly analyze the current
position on the device?

If it can, then the advertising is all wrong, FIDE missed a BIG
security breach, and it is not useful.

Do you believe that?

I have to think that a device such as this cannot be freely switched
from record to receive mode during a game without the Arbiter/Manager
knowing about it. At that point, I might as well walk up to a plyaer
and whisper a move into his ear.








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Old March 8th 07, 08:55 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

On Mar 8, 2:05 pm, Mike Murray wrote:
On 8 Mar 2007 09:53:31 -0800, "

wrote:
As usual, Sam, don't let the FACTS get in the way:
"While in the recording mode, MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager only
enables the recording capabilities. It disables any programs that
could help a chess player during the game. It also disables access to
information from the outside sources."


You're missing one major point in Sloan's post. The device
*transmits* the game to a hub. One major problem of cheating is
getting the position to a conspirator *outside* the playing room,
where that player can analyze the position with a computer. If
someone hijacks that transmission, that's one cheater's problem
solved.

And they also claim it to be a tamper-free device.


If you believe that, you may be in a position to win fifty grand from
*Kenneth* Sloan, who happens to be a professor of Computer Science.
(see the USCF Issues page).

I think it would be more correct to say something like, "MonRoi has
taken what they believe to be effective measures to make their device
tamper-resistant".


How is getting a position a 'Major Problem'?

I can walk into any hall and look at the board on an overhead or
directly, memorize the position, and leave. How is that a 'Major
Problem'?

At some point, you have to take the technology at face value.

the question to ask, and NOT to proliferate rumor as Sam Does with his
'I heard' BS., is:

Can a player using a MonRoi Personal Chess Manager switch it from
Record mode to a mode where it can receive a message from an outside
source, and if it can, would not the Arbiter be alerted to it?

The advertising for the MonRoi states:
"While in the recording mode, MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager only
enables the recording capabilities. It disables any programs that
could help a chess player during the game. It also disables access to
information from the outside sources."

So, I don't see it as an issue, and if Kenneth Sloan is so paranoid
about it, I'd like to see him try and hack it so it can receive
messages while in Record Mode from a renegade outside source.

But, that's my opinion only. I'm sure Ken may join the discussion here
and leverage his Professor of Computer Science on me....


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Old March 8th 07, 09:20 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

On Mar 8, 2:05 pm, Mike Murray wrote:
On 8 Mar 2007 09:53:31 -0800, "

wrote:
As usual, Sam, don't let the FACTS get in the way:
"While in the recording mode, MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager only
enables the recording capabilities. It disables any programs that
could help a chess player during the game. It also disables access to
information from the outside sources."


You're missing one major point in Sloan's post. The device
*transmits* the game to a hub. One major problem of cheating is
getting the position to a conspirator *outside* the playing room,
where that player can analyze the position with a computer. If
someone hijacks that transmission, that's one cheater's problem
solved.

And they also claim it to be a tamper-free device.


If you believe that, you may be in a position to win fifty grand from
*Kenneth* Sloan, who happens to be a professor of Computer Science.
(see the USCF Issues page).

I think it would be more correct to say something like, "MonRoi has
taken what they believe to be effective measures to make their device
tamper-resistant".


How is that a 'major point' and a 'major problem'? I can get any
position in any game simply by looking at the board.

Do you even play OTB chess?

I don't know what USCF issues page you refer to, but it seems like the
50K you say he is putting up is for someone to prove you cannot cheat
with the MonRoi? If so, that's a prize no-one will ever collect. I'd
rather see him, in all his wisdom, prove you CAN cheat with it and go
undetected.

That would impress me far more than the moniker of Professor of
Computer Science ever would.

the questio to ask is:

Can a MonRoi device be switched from Record Mode to some other mode in
order to receive advice from a renegade tranmission source?

If it can, prove it. If it cannot, then the paranoia is overstated.

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Old March 9th 07, 12:04 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

On 8 Mar 2007 12:55:07 -0800, "
wrote:

How is getting a position a 'Major Problem'?

I can walk into any hall and look at the board on an overhead or
directly, memorize the position, and leave. How is that a 'Major
Problem'?


Not a problem to do it for ONE MOVE. Hard to do it for EVERY MOVE
without calling a lot of attention to yourself. If you have a machine
transmitting every move in real time, the accomplice need only enter
the tournament room to make suggestions.

At some point, you have to take the technology at face value.


A dangerous thing to do.

...the question to ask, ... is: Can a player using a MonRoi Personal Chess Manager switch it from
Record mode to a mode where it can receive a message from an outside
source, and if it can, would not the Arbiter be alerted to it?


That's *one* question to ask, not *the* question to ask.

The advertising for the MonRoi states:
"While in the recording mode, MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager only
enables the recording capabilities. It disables any programs that
could help a chess player during the game. It also disables access to
information from the outside sources."


So, I don't see it as an issue, and if Kenneth Sloan is so paranoid
about it, I'd like to see him try and hack it so it can receive
messages while in Record Mode from a renegade outside source.


He'd probably hand the task to one of his grad students -- or maybe an
undergrad -- or a high school kid for his senior project, the way
things are going. :-(

People have hacked a lot bigger, more expensive, more critical systems
than the MonRoi box, for example, the XBox
http://www.xenatera.com/bunnie/proj/anatak/xboxmod.html

For a marketing blurb to inspire so much confidence in you that it
can't be done indicates a lack of familiarity on your part with
computing. I don't mean this as an insult. Just do a Google on
"hacking flash devices memory" or some such string and browse some of
the results. AFAIK, *nothing* is really secure.

But, that's my opinion only. I'm sure Ken may join the discussion here
and leverage his Professor of Computer Science on me....


You a bettin' man ?
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Old March 9th 07, 12:33 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

On 8 Mar 2007 13:20:53 -0800, "
wrote:

On Mar 8, 2:05 pm, Mike Murray wrote:
On 8 Mar 2007 09:53:31 -0800, "


wrote:
As usual, Sam, don't let the FACTS get in the way:
"While in the recording mode, MonRoi's Personal Chess Manager only
enables the recording capabilities. It disables any programs that
could help a chess player during the game. It also disables access to
information from the outside sources."


You're missing one major point in Sloan's post. The device
*transmits* the game to a hub. One major problem of cheating is
getting the position to a conspirator *outside* the playing room,
where that player can analyze the position with a computer. If
someone hijacks that transmission, that's one cheater's problem
solved.


And they also claim it to be a tamper-free device.


If you believe that, you may be in a position to win fifty grand from
*Kenneth* Sloan, who happens to be a professor of Computer Science.
(see the USCF Issues page).


I think it would be more correct to say something like, "MonRoi has
taken what they believe to be effective measures to make their device
tamper-resistant".


How is that a 'major point' and a 'major problem'? I can get any
position in any game simply by looking at the board.


OK. Let's do it a little slower.

Say the cheater is at the board. Sure, his accomplice can come in,
look at the position, memorize it, run back to the hotel room, enter
the opponent's move into Fritz on the laptop, then run back to the
tournament room, pass Fritz's suggestion through some prearranged
visual protocol, etc. Except somebody's gonna notice this guy
shuttling back and forth, especially if the player starts racking up
wins.

If the cheater's recorder is transmitting moves as they're made, and
the accomplice can catch and interpret the signal, half the trips and
the memorization and the time lost doing this just goes away. And, it
gets better. If the cheater is a half-way decent player, he won't
need help on *every* move. Maybe he signals that he wants help (say,
by taking an extra couple minutes). Maybe he's wired to receive, so
the accomplice *can* send suggestions every move.

In other words, the ability to intercept a transmission, while not
eleminating any further difficulties for the cheaters, gives them
extra options and makes their job a whole lot easier.

Do you even play OTB chess?


Of course. 1977. Have been as high as 2090. Now, let me ask you the
same question.

I don't know what USCF issues page you refer to,


It's in the USCF forums, members only section. Here's how to get
the

www.uschess.org -- About the USCF -- Governance -- Forum: USCF
Issues, etc. You'll have to register with your member number (You ARE
a member, aren't you?). Takes a while for the moderator to bless you.
I know, they don't make it easy to get there.

but it seems like the
50K you say he is putting up is for someone to prove you cannot cheat
with the MonRoi? If so, that's a prize no-one will ever collect. I'd
rather see him, in all his wisdom, prove you CAN cheat with it and go
undetected.


Sorry, I must have not worded my comment well. You have it backward.
Here's the quote:

ppwchess wrote:

The difference is your PDA can be loaded with pocket Fritz, and the
MonRoi can't.

and Kenneth Sloan responded:

Would you like to place a small wager on that? Say, $50,000?

Can a MonRoi device be switched from Record Mode to some other mode in
order to receive advice from a renegade tranmission source?


If it can, prove it. If it cannot, then the paranoia is overstated.


I responded to that in an earlier post.
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Old March 9th 07, 01:24 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis,alt.chess
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Default MonRoi and the Problem of Cheaters

Mike Murray writes:
Say the cheater is at the board. Sure, his accomplice can come in,
look at the position, memorize it, run back to the hotel room, enter
the opponent's move into Fritz on the laptop, then run back to the
tournament room, pass Fritz's suggestion through some prearranged
visual protocol, etc. Except somebody's gonna notice this guy
shuttling back and forth, especially if the player starts racking up wins.


This is why cellular phones were invented. Well actually not, but
they can save a lot of running around.

In other words, the ability to intercept a transmission, while not
eleminating any further difficulties for the cheaters, gives them
extra options and makes their job a whole lot easier.


If the MonRoi gizmo is transmitting board positions out of the game
room, part of the function is likely to let people outside the room
see the game in progress. So even if used as directed, it still gets
the moves out.
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