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Old September 28th 10, 11:59 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default I have arrived at the World Chess Olympiad in Khanty-Mansiysk, Siberia, Russia

On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 14:41:32 -0700 (PDT), The Master
wrote:


Oh, I very much doubt that computers have any trouble with either
notation. FEN requires fewer characters and thus solved a problem
that used to exist some years ago with regard to computer storage
space (at least for large position databases) or slow transmission
rates. Today you can go to your local Best Buy store and buy a
one-terrabyte harddrive off the shelf for under $100, so the only
such
problem I am aware of now is the issue of endgame tablebases.


I doubt any programs relied on actual character representation of
positions for their internal use and whatever format used for
presentation to human beings wouldn't have involved serious storage
limitations.

One thing I took for granted when stating that the above notation
is
easier to decipher was familiarity with algebraic notation. But once
upon a time a good number of people stubbornly refused to adopt it
(sort of like the metric system) and fiercely clung to descriptive
notation. Eventually, widespread use of chess computers tipped
the scales in favor of algebraic (that, and the fact that stubborn
old
men eventually die).


The USCF decision to go full-time algebraic was a political /
business one, made against the wishes of the majority of USCF members.
Computers could use either Descriptive or Algebraic by tweaking a few
line of code. Now, publishing houses? That's another matter.
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Old September 29th 10, 01:39 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default I have arrived at the World Chess Olympiad in Khanty-Mansiysk,Siberia, Russia

On Sep 28, 6:59*pm, MikeMurray wrote:

I doubt any programs relied on actual character representation of
positions for their internal use



Obviously, computers relied upon the on/off state to represent
either a
1 or a 0 for their internal use, but these ones and zeros (not you,
Phil)
can be combined symbolically and it wouldn't surprise me if Sanny has
a digital tiger to represent the queen, a picture of a horse-drawn
chariot
for the rooks, etc.


and whatever format used for presentation to human beings wouldn't
have involved serious storage limitations.



I never thought this was much of an issue but if you look back say,
five or ten years you will find people whining about 'wasted
bandwidth'
right here in the chess newsgroups. (To some people, writing a chess
position as: w Kg1 / b Kg3, Qg2 is a horrible crime because I didn't
state whose turn it was to move.)


*One thing I took for granted when stating that the above notation
is easier to decipher was familiarity with algebraic notation. *But once
upon a time a good number of people stubbornly refused to adopt it
(sort of like the metric system) and fiercely clung to descriptive
notation. *Eventually, widespread use of chess computers tipped
the scales in favor of algebraic (that, and the fact that stubborn
old men eventually die).


The USCF *decision to go full-time algebraic was a political /
business one, made against the wishes of the majority of USCF members.



That's quite a claim. In my experience, 'the majority' do not even
bother responding to such polls, though this never stops certain
folks from claiming to speak on their behalf.

The magazine had certain issues, one of which was the fact that
those who rejected the idea of learning a 'new' style of notation
could not then read and enjoy those columns which adopted it. I
seem to recall a lot of talk about Larry Evans and his Chess Life
column being 'the first thing I turn to' and suchlike. Well, just
picture a stubborn old coot who has difficulty with learning this
confounded 'new' algebraic notation -- what's he going to do when
he gets an issue of CL in the mail? Turn to Evans, of course! To
a column which he can read and understand, not to one of those
other guys, who may have adopted a language he can't decipher.

What developed was a problem related to this splitting off of the
Homo Algebraicists from the Neanderthals.


Computers could use either Descriptive or Algebraic by tweaking a few
line of code. *Now, publishing houses? *That's another matter.



Don't get me started on chess book publishers! One of the
finest endgame books I ever bought was effectively ruined, due
no doubt to the selection of an inexpensive amateur for the job
of translating from descriptive to algebraic notation. You wait
years before some foreign language classic finally becomes
available in English and what do you get? Something which
might have been just as useful had it been left in Russian or
German, or printed upside-down and backwards on OD green
paper stock.

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Old September 29th 10, 09:19 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default I have arrived at the World Chess Olympiad in Khanty-Mansiysk,Siberia, Russia

On Sep 28, 7:39*pm, The Master wrote:

* I never thought this was much of an issue but if you look back say,
five or ten years you will find people whining about 'wasted
bandwidth'
right here in the chess newsgroups. *(To some people, writing a chess
position as: w Kg1 / b Kg3, Qg2 *is a horrible crime because I didn't
state whose turn it was to move.)



I don't know about "horrible crime," but it is often difficult to
evaluate a position if you don't know whose move it is. In your
example, it is pretty obvious whose move it is since white is mated.

SBD
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Old September 29th 10, 09:49 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default I have arrived at the World Chess Olympiad in Khanty-Mansiysk,Siberia, Russia

On Sep 29, 4:19*am, sd wrote:

* I never thought this was much of an issue but if you look back say,
five or ten years you will find people whining about 'wasted bandwidth'
right here in the chess newsgroups. *(To some people, writing a chess
position as: w Kg1 / b Kg3, Qg2 *is a horrible crime because I didn't
state whose turn it was to move.)


I don't know about "horrible crime," but it is often difficult to
evaluate a position if you don't know whose move it is. In your
example, it is pretty obvious whose move it is since white is mated.



I see you deciphered 'w' as meaning the white chessmen and
'b' as representing the black ones. Back when I was recording
adjourned positions and such, I wrote that out unless it was only
for my own use. Leaving out any commentary regarding castling
rights was understood to mean that 'what you see is what you get.'
In other words, nothing funny has happened which might preclude
either king from doing what it appears it can do. In the process,
it also was common practice to record the last move before the
adjourned position (which should handle en passant nicely).

I never did understand how someone could come to say, rgc and
complain about their expense for downloading a bit more text -- a
few more characters here and there -- the supposedly 'wasted'
bandwidth. Did they not see that nearly everything here was just
that, and thus their claims made them look silly (as well as uber-
cheap)? I suppose not. Anyway, they most likely stopped lurking
hereabout or else finally broke down and bought used 1200 baud
modems on ebay to upgrade their computers. What they did with
their old 300 baud modems is still a mystery despite the passage
of many weeks....



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