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Old August 29th 11, 11:09 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer,alt.chess
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Default Chess analysis: Fritz, Shredder, Rybka

I've just started ramping up on various chess programs, and I'd like
to find a program that can do very competent analysis of prospective
moves, given a certain board setup.

From what I've heard, that is a strong suit of Fritz, but not so much
for Rybka or Shredder. Given that possibly rash assumption
(corrections welcome), a couple questions arise:

Is it worthwhile to spring for the 'Deep' versions of any of those
programs? IOW, will Deep Fritz do more competent move analysis than
regular Fritz?

Also, does anyone know why searches for "Fritz Chess" come up with
other vendors aside from Chessbase? There's Viva Media and Encore
Software, etc. The others have different packaging, and I don't see
any phone contact info on their sites. I suspect some downscaled
'consumer' versions, especially given the focus of Viva.

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Old August 30th 11, 12:10 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer,alt.chess
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Default Chess analysis: Fritz, Shredder, Rybka

On 29/08/2011 23:09, Chris wrote:
I've just started ramping up on various chess programs, and I'd like
to find a program that can do very competent analysis of prospective
moves, given a certain board setup.


Forward analysis from a fixed position is a bit more tricky but they
will all do it. Fritz GUI will handle all of the engines you mention.

As a quick example from this position on a fast Q6600 box :
5k1r/1B3p2/pp4pp/8/1n3PbP/1Nr5/P1PR4/1K2R3 w - - 0 24

Engines almost all find the right answer for white to draw 24. Be4

After 1 minute elapsed time
Stockfish1.51 (4CPU) 15 ply
Shredder10 reaches 14 ply
Crafty20.14 (4CPU) 14 ply
Stockfish1.51 (4CPU) 14 ply
Rybka232 12 ply
Fritz8 11 ply
Fritz5.32 10 ply

I wasn't convinced that Crafty was honouring the CPU limitation as I
didn't see a change in kN/s or time to complete.

More modern engine tend to do faster more selective searches.
Stockfish, Crafty and Fritz5.32 are freely available engines.
Stockfish1.51 & Crafty20 can use multiple CPU cores too.

From what I've heard, that is a strong suit of Fritz, but not so much
for Rybka or Shredder. Given that possibly rash assumption
(corrections welcome), a couple questions arise:

Is it worthwhile to spring for the 'Deep' versions of any of those
programs? IOW, will Deep Fritz do more competent move analysis than
regular Fritz?


It will get there a bit quicker. Roughly speaking slightly less than 1
extra ply of lookahead for every tripling of the number of CPU cores the
program can use. I don't consider the deep versions to be worth the
extra cash. To put it into context a game annotated by any of the top
engines using around 15-20s a move (and working backwards from the final
position will usually give an almost GM level annotation). Snag is that
computers and Fritz in particular sometimes miss certain types of move
that give a long term advantage but no immediate return.

In this respect I find Shredder more pleasing to play against.

Having said that I note that CB FritzX is being remaindered at the
moment for under 3 (plus shipping). At that price you can't go wrong.

And Fritz12 seems to be half price on UK Amazon so I guess a new version
is due out sometime soon.

Unless you are already GM strength or very impatient you would be
wasting your money on deep versions of the engines. If you want to try a
multiple core engine then Stockfish or Crafty are both free to use.

Also, does anyone know why searches for "Fritz Chess" come up with
other vendors aside from Chessbase? There's Viva Media and Encore
Software, etc. The others have different packaging, and I don't see
any phone contact info on their sites. I suspect some downscaled
'consumer' versions, especially given the focus of Viva.

Chessbase is the original I suspect the others are rebranded with a
shorter or no membership of PlayChess included. BTW First thing to do
after installing is probably download any and all software updates.

Regards,
Martin Brown
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Old August 30th 11, 10:12 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer,alt.chess
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
Default Chess analysis: Fritz, Shredder, Rybka

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:10:01 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 29/08/2011 23:09, Chris wrote:
I've just started ramping up on various chess programs, and I'd like
to find a program that can do very competent analysis of prospective
moves, given a certain board setup.


Forward analysis from a fixed position is a bit more tricky but they
will all do it. Fritz GUI will handle all of the engines you mention.


Then I'm guessing that the Fritz GUI is the main reason for its rep
for notated analysis and prediction? Fritz seems to be mentioned much
more often when the subject of analysis comes up.

I'll probably be able to make use of Chessmaster GM for a long while
for game-playing (thanks again for the recommendation). But now I'm
looking for something to more efficiently explain the 'why' of a given
move, and to analyze moves from books and masters' games. That's
something that CM doesn't do real well, especially in that its
prediction is not often followed by its own play.

As a quick example from this position on a fast Q6600 box :
5k1r/1B3p2/pp4pp/8/1n3PbP/1Nr5/P1PR4/1K2R3 w - - 0 24

Engines almost all find the right answer for white to draw 24. Be4

After 1 minute elapsed time
Stockfish1.51 (4CPU) 15 ply
Shredder10 reaches 14 ply
Crafty20.14 (4CPU) 14 ply
Stockfish1.51 (4CPU) 14 ply
Rybka232 12 ply
Fritz8 11 ply
Fritz5.32 10 ply


Each additional ply would seem to require an exponential increase in
CPU, so that would indicate that Stockfish, Shredder and Crafty are
-much- faster?! I haven't seen any mention of Master-level players
using those for analysis. Again, mostly see Fritz mentioned in that
context. I wonder why.

From what I've heard, that is a strong suit of Fritz, but not so much
for Rybka or Shredder. Given that possibly rash assumption
(corrections welcome), a couple questions arise:

Is it worthwhile to spring for the 'Deep' versions of any of those
programs? IOW, will Deep Fritz do more competent move analysis than
regular Fritz?


It will get there a bit quicker. Roughly speaking slightly less than 1
extra ply of lookahead for every tripling of the number of CPU cores the
program can use. I don't consider the deep versions to be worth the
extra cash. To put it into context a game annotated by any of the top
engines using around 15-20s a move (and working backwards from the final
position will usually give an almost GM level annotation).


The speed factor is what I was after. Even at 60 seconds+, CM doesn't
nail definitive moves. This seems likes an ideal app for multicore
machines, so I thought the compute time might be almost the linear
inverse of the number of cores.

Snag is that
computers and Fritz in particular sometimes miss certain types of move
that give a long term advantage but no immediate return.


In this respect I find Shredder more pleasing to play against.


Given that you use Shredder rather than Fritz, I figured it must have
a lot going for it. Does the UI do everything that Fritz UI does?

Having said that I note that CB FritzX is being remaindered at the
moment for under 3 (plus shipping). At that price you can't go wrong.

And Fritz12 seems to be half price on UK Amazon so I guess a new version
is due out sometime soon.


I thought that was the normal price ($40 US). Deep Fritz about double,
so I would've hoped it would bring much more to the game.

Unless you are already GM strength or very impatient you would be
wasting your money on deep versions of the engines. If you want to try a
multiple core engine then Stockfish or Crafty are both free to use.


I guess those could be swapped painlessly into Fritz's UI then. So
again, it's down to what the UI does. Martin, do you happen to know if
other GUI's are as easy to use as the Fritz GUI purely for analysis?

Also, does anyone know why searches for "Fritz Chess" come up with
other vendors aside from Chessbase? There's Viva Media and Encore
Software, etc. The others have different packaging, and I don't see
any phone contact info on their sites. I suspect some downscaled
'consumer' versions, especially given the focus of Viva.

Chessbase is the original I suspect the others are rebranded with a
shorter or no membership of PlayChess included. BTW First thing to do
after installing is probably download any and all software updates.

Regards,
Martin Brown


I also suspected as much. Odd that the info is not out there.

Thanks again, Martin.
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Old September 1st 11, 09:31 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer,alt.chess
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
Default Chess analysis: Fritz, Shredder, Rybka

On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:32:33 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 30/08/2011 22:12, Chris wrote:


Then I'm guessing that the Fritz GUI is the main reason for its rep
for notated analysis and prediction? Fritz seems to be mentioned much
more often when the subject of analysis comes up.


Fritz has its reputation because it was one of the very first truly
strong engines on the PC way back when v1 was released for DOS in about
1990. As such it has always been the one to beat. Shredder can do that
(as can several other engines). Most top engines now are 64bit versions.

Detailed rating comparisons are online at sites like CCRL

http://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/

For 40 moves in 40 mins. Further down you can get it to show you all
members of an engine family compared.


Wow, there are a few very high ratings from programs I've never heard
of (Naum, Spike, Critter), and most of them beat Deep Fritz?! Houdini
and Stockfish surely put in a good appearance.

I suggest you try out Arena GUI which is free before paying full price
for a copy of Fritz. You don't need the latest version either. And
unless you really like the new space hogging ribbon interface it might
actually be an advantage to avoid the latest and greatest version until
they sort out the HCI issues resulting from the change / "improvements".

http://www.playwitharena.com/

OTOH if FritzX is only $5 in the USA too you may as well grab it!


On considering the engine ratings, the GUI seems to be the key for me.
The transformation of analyzed moves and mistakes into English will
probably be the deciding factor.

...now I'm
looking for something to more efficiently explain the 'why' of a given
move, and to analyze moves from books and masters' games. That's
something that CM doesn't do real well, especially in that its
prediction is not often followed by its own play.


I wonder if that is the difference between the engine playing with a
personality and the engine playing at full strength. I don't recall it
well enough, but on Fritz GUI you can set infinite analysis and the
number of lines to follow and watch them evolve as the search deepens.


Do any other GUIs do fancy stuff like that? If not, then the Fritz GUI
sounds like the way to go.

Crafty isn't as strong as the others. I think Shredder gives a better
match to my playing style and is stronger than Fritz8 which I have. I am
about to buy FritzX having noticed the silly price here.


The other versions of Fritz 12 that I mentioned (Viva Media, etc) are
available for around $20 here. That may be worth the additional cost
if you're not concerned with site memberships and other side-benefits
of the ChessBase version.

But yes the cost to go deeper is exponential so adding an extra CPU core
doesn't give much benefit after the first two or three. In part because
run on a fast single CPU the engine will have the benefit of more deep
cutoffs during the search whereas farmed out across multiple CPUs the
engine has to trade intercommunication bandwidth against doing work that
will be thrown away down lines that will be chopped out later.


Sounds like you've written some software. I've never attempted a chess
program, but I have written a lot of realtime kernel code, and there
definitely is a point at which task delegation defeats the advantage
of multithreading. But I thought a chess app would be a good
self-contained module that would perform well in that respect.

The speed factor is what I was after. Even at 60 seconds+, CM doesn't
nail definitive moves. This seems likes an ideal app for multicore
machines, so I thought the compute time might be almost the linear
inverse of the number of cores.


Some positions have several good continuations so it may not be the
engines fault if it flips between two or three equally good candidates.


CM's suggestion engine just seems to run off on its own, down long
paths that aren't pursued by its main engine. The speech interface is
nice, but listening for more than a couple moves in seems futile.
Maybe they could make use of one of the other chess engines.

Given that you use Shredder rather than Fritz, I figured it must have
a lot going for it. Does the UI do everything that Fritz UI does?


It is the same GUI but supplied with a different main engine. You also
get a set of 345 bitbases for perfect endgame play with Shredder.


So all the ChessBase software has the same GUI? I've tried to contact
them for recommendations, but no callbacks.

Try the free engine Stockfish on Arena. That supports multiple CPUs and
also throttling back the number of cores/threads allowed.


If Arena does the same type of analysis that you outlined above re
Fritz, I'll give it a try.

BTW the other one that I mentioned TASC 2 training software seems to
have reappeared online at a price $20 that I can recommend.

http://www.chesshouse.com/TASC_Chess...ess_p/a216.htm

The only thing is that I don't know how well it runs on XP or Vista.
ISTR The copy I had was a bit tetchy on XP. That may be fixed now. I got
my ancient copy remaindered just after XP came out.


I had just found that. I'm not so sure it's been updated, and I've
been reading about problems with a lot of the older programs (TASC,
CT-ART) running under Win7. Also heard that CT-ART got screwed up in
the transition to v 4.0. And v3.0 is less likely to cooperate with
Win7.

It is literally a self contained chess course starting with the moves of
the pieces and going up to some fairly advanced stuff later on.

I reckon you would get a lot more out of this TASC2 training package
than out of a powerful blow your head off engine that is unbeatable.

Regards,
Martin Brown


If TASC and CT-ART run on Win7, I'll get them. I can play CM for the
interactive game part, so the high power engine will be useful for
deeper analysis of given game positions.
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Old September 5th 11, 10:00 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer,alt.chess
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,015
Default Chess analysis: Fritz, Shredder, Rybka

On 01/09/2011 21:31, Chris wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:32:33 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 30/08/2011 22:12, Chris wrote:


Then I'm guessing that the Fritz GUI is the main reason for its rep
for notated analysis and prediction? Fritz seems to be mentioned much
more often when the subject of analysis comes up.


Fritz has its reputation because it was one of the very first truly
strong engines on the PC way back when v1 was released for DOS in about
1990. As such it has always been the one to beat. Shredder can do that
(as can several other engines). Most top engines now are 64bit versions.

Detailed rating comparisons are online at sites like CCRL

http://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/

For 40 moves in 40 mins. Further down you can get it to show you all
members of an engine family compared.


Wow, there are a few very high ratings from programs I've never heard
of (Naum, Spike, Critter), and most of them beat Deep Fritz?! Houdini
and Stockfish surely put in a good appearance.


Quite a few are free engines written by enthusistic amateurs and/or
computer science researchers. A very large collection of precompiled
engines and other chess related software is online at Jim Ablett's site.

http://jim-ablett.co.de/

Also maintains a list of links to other good computer chess sites.

Do any other GUIs do fancy stuff like that? If not, then the Fritz GUI
sounds like the way to go.


I think Arena will do it too, but I haven't ever tried beyond watching
the principal variation.

But yes the cost to go deeper is exponential so adding an extra CPU core
doesn't give much benefit after the first two or three. In part because
run on a fast single CPU the engine will have the benefit of more deep
cutoffs during the search whereas farmed out across multiple CPUs the
engine has to trade intercommunication bandwidth against doing work that
will be thrown away down lines that will be chopped out later.


Sounds like you've written some software. I've never attempted a chess
program, but I have written a lot of realtime kernel code, and there
definitely is a point at which task delegation defeats the advantage
of multithreading. But I thought a chess app would be a good
self-contained module that would perform well in that respect.


Somewhere there is a graph of effective computing power gain on the
chess problem with increasing number of CPUs. I think in a paper by
computer chess researcher Robert Hyatt (Crafty and before that Cray Blitz).

It is the same GUI but supplied with a different main engine. You also
get a set of 345 bitbases for perfect endgame play with Shredder.


So all the ChessBase software has the same GUI? I've tried to contact
them for recommendations, but no callbacks.


I think so. Except the very latest engines have the newest GUI with a
daft new MickeySoft ribbon interface. I don't fancy that improvement.

Try the free engine Stockfish on Arena. That supports multiple CPUs and
also throttling back the number of cores/threads allowed.


If Arena does the same type of analysis that you outlined above re
Fritz, I'll give it a try.

BTW the other one that I mentioned TASC 2 training software seems to
have reappeared online at a price $20 that I can recommend.

http://www.chesshouse.com/TASC_Chess...ess_p/a216.htm

The only thing is that I don't know how well it runs on XP or Vista.
ISTR The copy I had was a bit tetchy on XP. That may be fixed now. I got
my ancient copy remaindered just after XP came out.


I had just found that. I'm not so sure it's been updated, and I've
been reading about problems with a lot of the older programs (TASC,
CT-ART) running under Win7. Also heard that CT-ART got screwed up in
the transition to v 4.0. And v3.0 is less likely to cooperate with
Win7.


A free sample of CT Art 3.0 is online at
http://www.chess.com/download/view/ct-art-30-demo

It is literally a self contained chess course starting with the moves of
the pieces and going up to some fairly advanced stuff later on.

I reckon you would get a lot more out of this TASC2 training package
than out of a powerful blow your head off engine that is unbeatable.

Regards,
Martin Brown


If TASC and CT-ART run on Win7, I'll get them. I can play CM for the
interactive game part, so the high power engine will be useful for
deeper analysis of given game positions.


I don't know if either will run on Win 7 but I did a quick test and
TASC2 will run ok from the CD on Vista. You might find CT Art 3.0 a bit
too difficult unless you work through TASC2 first.

Regards,
Martin Brown





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Old September 11th 11, 08:41 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer,alt.chess
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 35
Default Chess analysis: Fritz, Shredder, Rybka

On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:00:48 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

Quite a few are free engines written by enthusistic amateurs and/or
computer science researchers. A very large collection of precompiled
engines and other chess related software is online at Jim Ablett's site.

http://jim-ablett.co.de/

Also maintains a list of links to other good computer chess sites.


Terrific site, Martin. I'll be spending time at a lot of the linked
sites as well.

Do any other GUIs do fancy stuff like that? If not, then the Fritz GUI
sounds like the way to go.


I think Arena will do it too, but I haven't ever tried beyond watching
the principal variation.


I haven't got Fritz yet, but it sounds like a good direction at this
point. However, I -have- spent a couple hundred $ on chess books. So
much for my original query about 'free' chess programs. It's
addicting.

Sounds like you've written some software. I've never attempted a chess
program, but I have written a lot of realtime kernel code, and there
definitely is a point at which task delegation defeats the advantage
of multithreading. But I thought a chess app would be a good
self-contained module that would perform well in that respect.


Somewhere there is a graph of effective computing power gain on the
chess problem with increasing number of CPUs. I think in a paper by
computer chess researcher Robert Hyatt (Crafty and before that Cray Blitz).


Interesting. The realtime kernel code that I've written was for
completely different types of apps, mostly small tasks for things like
industrial processes or lighting control and such. In that case, the
overhead of intertask comm quickly became a factor. I didn't think
that would be a large factor for a chess program. Assumed that a ply
could effectively be handed off as an independant process. But of
course I've never worked on a chess program.

So all the ChessBase software has the same GUI? I've tried to contact
them for recommendations, but no callbacks.


I think so. Except the very latest engines have the newest GUI with a
daft new MickeySoft ribbon interface. I don't fancy that improvement.


The ribbon seems to be a point of contention. I haven't quite made up
my mind about that approach yet.

A free sample of CT Art 3.0 is online at
http://www.chess.com/download/view/ct-art-30-demo


!!

I don't know if either will run on Win 7 but I did a quick test and
TASC2 will run ok from the CD on Vista. You might find CT Art 3.0 a bit
too difficult unless you work through TASC2 first.

Regards,
Martin Brown


Thanks for checking that. Re Tasc2 vs CT-Art: I'm still not sure what
level I"m at, but I do pretty well at some of the advanced-mid book
tests, especially for strategy/midgame. And getting beat is a
motivator for me. My only problem with extremely high level of
difficulty is when I no longer understand the motivation behind given
moves.

I just saw a Roman Lab video that featured Petrosian vs Spassky, and
some of the moves left rather incomprehensible board positions
(mid-level pieces moving right into to pawn-capture squares with no
apparent reward, etc). I'd love to see more in-depth analysis of some
of that game in particular (Roman didn't get into many of the odd
corners in the video). I have a feeling that understanding moves like
that would pay off.
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Old September 15th 11, 12:40 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer,alt.chess
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Posts: 1,015
Default Chess analysis: Fritz, Shredder, Rybka

On 11/09/2011 20:41, Chris wrote:
On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:00:48 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

I think so. Except the very latest engines have the newest GUI with a
daft new MickeySoft ribbon interface. I don't fancy that improvement.


The ribbon seems to be a point of contention. I haven't quite made up
my mind about that approach yet.

A free sample of CT Art 3.0 is online at
http://www.chess.com/download/view/ct-art-30-demo


!!

I don't know if either will run on Win 7 but I did a quick test and
TASC2 will run ok from the CD on Vista. You might find CT Art 3.0 a bit
too difficult unless you work through TASC2 first.

Regards,
Martin Brown


Thanks for checking that. Re Tasc2 vs CT-Art: I'm still not sure what
level I"m at, but I do pretty well at some of the advanced-mid book
tests, especially for strategy/midgame. And getting beat is a
motivator for me. My only problem with extremely high level of
difficulty is when I no longer understand the motivation behind given
moves.

I just saw a Roman Lab video that featured Petrosian vs Spassky, and
some of the moves left rather incomprehensible board positions
(mid-level pieces moving right into to pawn-capture squares with no
apparent reward, etc). I'd love to see more in-depth analysis of some
of that game in particular (Roman didn't get into many of the odd
corners in the video). I have a feeling that understanding moves like
that would pay off.


My FritzX has arrived from Amazon marketplace and astonishingly it has
come from INetVideo.com in Canada (not bad for 3 + postage). Took a
while to arrive since it travelled rather a long way to reach me.

Direct link: http://www.inetvideo.com/Items/N02-009848

Their website is really annoying to look at.

Version shown on Amazon isn't quite the same as the one shown in the
image on this link. I haven't had chance to install it yet.

BTW Fritz X probably has most of the analysis features you wanted.

I will post again after I have had a chance to play it properly (rather
too busy to try it out just now).

Regards,
Martin Brown
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Old October 6th 11, 09:47 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer,alt.chess
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Posts: 1,015
Default Chess analysis: Fritz, Shredder, Rybka

On 15/09/2011 12:40, Martin Brown wrote:

BTW Fritz X probably has most of the analysis features you wanted.

I will post again after I have had a chance to play it properly (rather
too busy to try it out just now).


Following up my own post now I have had a chance to play with my bargain
3 copy of FritzX. Licenced by Vivo media and with only 3 months
subscription to the online chess server the program is otherwise fine
and shows best moves and counterplay graphically on the board.

GUI is scaled better on a large screen than earlier versions and it
needs DirectX 9 (on DVD). I see ragged pixels at the edge of pieces on
the annotation style playing board when I select a piece to move XOR
fights with anti-aliassing but this doesn't detract from the game.

I haven't yet registered and downloaded any updates or bugfixes - this
is tested as it comes out of the box. Hard to beat for the price!

There is an annoying Vivo media trailer installed by default but you can
skip it by editing the FritzX link from "trailer.exe" to
"ChessProgramX.exe". Fritz still has certain types of blind spot but it
plays a very solid game. Not sure that they have calibrated the scaled
down playing strengths right but that is another matter.

I still prefer Shredder as an engine to spar against. YMMV

BTW Thanks to the OP for asking the question. I would never have noticed
this bargain but for doing a quick search on Amazon for you.
(not where I usually look for chess software)

Regards,
Martin Brown
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