Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old March 25th 04, 06:04 PM
chessplayer
 
Posts: n/a
Default QUEEN VS ROOK ENDING (Draw or not)

I would like GM's or IM's to also give thier opinion on this.

I played against a computer (CM9000) with a one hour time limit and
gave myself the rook and king and gave the computer the queen and king
with the computer to play.

I feel that as long as there are no pawns and the rook is on the
second rank with the king on the first rank it can counter all the
moves made by the Queen and the king.

I played out the fifty moves and the computer at the highest level
could not mate me. Therefore, it resulted in a draw.

Is there any way to guarantee a mate or is this ending a theoritical
draw.

My experience leads me to conclude the following:


This ending if played out to perfection by the rook and king is a
theoritical draw. However, to play perfectly on OTB situations is very
difficult. Even the minutest of mistakes would lead the Queen and king
to corner the rook and king into an easy mate.

Therefore, I believe it is a theoritical draw. However, in practice it
is very difficult to draw such a situation.

What are your suggestions.

Regards,

Chessplayer
  #2   Report Post  
Old March 25th 04, 06:10 PM
Doctor SBD
 
Posts: n/a
Default QUEEN VS ROOK ENDING (Draw or not)

Reading one or two endgame books would disabuse you of your "theory."

SBD
  #3   Report Post  
Old March 25th 04, 06:43 PM
Benjamin Jordan
 
Posts: n/a
Default QUEEN VS ROOK ENDING (Draw or not)

I'm not a GM or IM, but it is addressed this in my _Lasker's Manual of
Chess_. White can always separate the king and rook to arrange a queen
fork:

[FEN "8/8/8/8/7Q/5K2/6r1/6k1 w - - 0 1"]
1. Qd4+ Kh1 2. Qh8+ Kg1 3. Qh4 {The initial position, but with Black in
zugzwang.} 3... Ra2 4. Qg5+ Kh1{4... Kf1 Qc1#}5. Qh6+ Kg1{5... Rh2 Qc1#}6.
Qg6+ Kh2 7. Qh7+ Kg1 8. Qb1+ Kh2 9. Qxa2+ *

I'm surprised that CM9k couldn't play that ending. Wait, you were playing
the chimp, right? J/K! If CM9K supports tablebases (it should) make sure
they are turned on.

- Benjamin Jordan


"chessplayer" wrote in message
om...
I would like GM's or IM's to also give thier opinion on this.

I played against a computer (CM9000) with a one hour time limit and
gave myself the rook and king and gave the computer the queen and king
with the computer to play.

I feel that as long as there are no pawns and the rook is on the
second rank with the king on the first rank it can counter all the
moves made by the Queen and the king.

I played out the fifty moves and the computer at the highest level
could not mate me. Therefore, it resulted in a draw.

Is there any way to guarantee a mate or is this ending a theoritical
draw.

My experience leads me to conclude the following:


This ending if played out to perfection by the rook and king is a
theoritical draw. However, to play perfectly on OTB situations is very
difficult. Even the minutest of mistakes would lead the Queen and king
to corner the rook and king into an easy mate.

Therefore, I believe it is a theoritical draw. However, in practice it
is very difficult to draw such a situation.

What are your suggestions.

Regards,

Chessplayer



  #5   Report Post  
Old March 26th 04, 01:25 AM
Bjoern
 
Posts: n/a
Default QUEEN VS ROOK ENDING (Draw or not)

In article , (chessplayer) wrote:
I would like GM's or IM's to also give thier opinion on this.

I played against a computer (CM9000) with a one hour time limit and
gave myself the rook and king and gave the computer the queen and king
with the computer to play.


You don't really need to ask GM's or IM's, it's much easier to just ask a
tablebase (as pointed out by someone else).
E.g. set up your position at the
http://www.lokasoft.nl/uk/tbweb.htm
website and play it out against the tablebase server - that will give you a
perfectly correct answer.

I seem to recall an anecdote about some programmer challenging some strong
players at a tournament to win the queen vs rook endgame against his
program/chess computer and the player who took up the challenge didn't manage
it on the first try.

--Björn


  #7   Report Post  
Old March 26th 04, 07:22 AM
chessplayer
 
Posts: n/a
Default QUEEN VS ROOK ENDING (Draw or not)

"Benjamin Jordan" wrote in message . ..
I'm not a GM or IM, but it is addressed this in my _Lasker's Manual of
Chess_. White can always separate the king and rook to arrange a queen
fork:

[FEN "8/8/8/8/7Q/5K2/6r1/6k1 w - - 0 1"]
1. Qd4+ Kh1 2. Qh8+ Kg1 3. Qh4 {The initial position, but with Black in
zugzwang.} 3... Ra2 4. Qg5+ Kh1{4... Kf1 Qc1#}5. Qh6+ Kg1{5... Rh2 Qc1#}6.
Qg6+ Kh2 7. Qh7+ Kg1 8. Qb1+ Kh2 9. Qxa2+ *

I'm surprised that CM9k couldn't play that ending. Wait, you were playing
the chimp, right? J/K! If CM9K supports tablebases (it should) make sure
they are turned on.


Nope. No chimp here. I just feel that this end game is theoritically a
draw. If the mate is so straightforward then the computer at the
highest level should cerainly be able to mate. Yet mine couldn't. I
believe that if the rook and king move perfectly to all of the queen
and kings moves they can draw the endgame. Theoritically I believe
this is a draw.

Regards,

Chessplayer

- Benjamin Jordan


"chessplayer" wrote in message
om...
I would like GM's or IM's to also give thier opinion on this.

I played against a computer (CM9000) with a one hour time limit and
gave myself the rook and king and gave the computer the queen and king
with the computer to play.

I feel that as long as there are no pawns and the rook is on the
second rank with the king on the first rank it can counter all the
moves made by the Queen and the king.

I played out the fifty moves and the computer at the highest level
could not mate me. Therefore, it resulted in a draw.

Is there any way to guarantee a mate or is this ending a theoritical
draw.

My experience leads me to conclude the following:


This ending if played out to perfection by the rook and king is a
theoritical draw. However, to play perfectly on OTB situations is very
difficult. Even the minutest of mistakes would lead the Queen and king
to corner the rook and king into an easy mate.

Therefore, I believe it is a theoritical draw. However, in practice it
is very difficult to draw such a situation.

What are your suggestions.

Regards,

Chessplayer

  #8   Report Post  
Old March 26th 04, 07:30 AM
chessplayer
 
Posts: n/a
Default QUEEN VS ROOK ENDING (Draw or not)

Ron wrote in message ...
In article ,
(chessplayer) wrote:

My experience leads me to conclude the following:


This ending if played out to perfection by the rook and king is a
theoritical draw. However, to play perfectly on OTB situations is very
difficult. Even the minutest of mistakes would lead the Queen and king
to corner the rook and king into an easy mate.

Therefore, I believe it is a theoritical draw. However, in practice it
is very difficult to draw such a situation.


You are wrong. I am not a IM or a GM, but I quote Howell, in his
"Essential Chess Endings":

"The ending is a theoretical win for the queen in an absolute maximum
of 31 moves."

That being said, there are some defensive ideas which will require that
your opponent be extremely well-prepared in order to win, such as the
"third rank defense" eg: Kd8 and Rb6 with the white king on the far side
of the rook. This is not a theoretical draw, but few human players can
break it down if they're not prepared for it.



So, your point is that theoritically it is not a draw but a win for
Queen and king. However, this win is not easy and requires the correct
method. This is also something told to me by some expert and master
level players. They explained to me that there is a system ( a method
) by which the queen and king can get the rook and king in a mating
trap. However, if this system is there how come the computer at the
highest level doesn't play it.

My theory is that theoritically this ending is a draw. However,
practically it is very difficult to execute this draw and so in
practical terms the queen and king will end up winning against the
rook and king. This is because the rook and king must play perfectly
to make this draw possible. Their movements must be perfect. However,
the queen and king can afford to make minor mistakes (no major ones
where they line up together but minor positional mistakes are okay)

and all it takes is the rook and king to make one minor mistake in
thier movement and mate follows very quickly.

Of course if the method to mate is not known to someone than even the
minor mistakes made by the rook and king will not be able to be
exploited by the queen and king. However, even if the mating method is
known the perfect counter moves are possible by the rook and king.

Regards,

Chessplayer
  #9   Report Post  
Old March 26th 04, 07:38 AM
chessplayer
 
Posts: n/a
Default QUEEN VS ROOK ENDING (Draw or not)

(Bjoern) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(chessplayer) wrote:
I would like GM's or IM's to also give thier opinion on this.

I played against a computer (CM9000) with a one hour time limit and
gave myself the rook and king and gave the computer the queen and king
with the computer to play.


You don't really need to ask GM's or IM's, it's much easier to just ask a
tablebase (as pointed out by someone else).
E.g. set up your position at the
http://www.lokasoft.nl/uk/tbweb.htm
website and play it out against the tablebase server - that will give you a
perfectly correct answer.

I seem to recall an anecdote about some programmer challenging some strong
players at a tournament to win the queen vs rook endgame against his
program/chess computer and the player who took up the challenge didn't manage
it on the first try.

--Björn


Very interesting. So, the player on the first try could not manage to
win with queen and king vs rook and king.

Actually, even if someone did manage to win my point is that the rook
and king movements were not perfect. I believe that if the rook and
king move perfectly to counter the queen and kings movements than a
draw is on the cards.

It is because perfect movements are not possible by most players that
the minor positional mistakes will get exploited by the player having
the queen and king.

If the player with the king and rook plays to perfection he can
counter all the moves made by the player with the queen and the rook.

In practical terms this is very difficult to do but theoritically it
is possible and therefore, the queen vs rook ending (with no pawns) is
a drawn ending.

Regards,

Chessplayer
  #10   Report Post  
Old March 26th 04, 09:50 AM
Bjoern
 
Posts: n/a
Default QUEEN VS ROOK ENDING (Draw or not)

In article , (chessplayer) wrote:

Actually, even if someone did manage to win my point is that the rook
and king movements were not perfect. I believe that if the rook and
king move perfectly to counter the queen and kings movements than a
draw is on the cards.

It is because perfect movements are not possible by most players that
the minor positional mistakes will get exploited by the player having
the queen and king.

If the player with the king and rook plays to perfection he can
counter all the moves made by the player with the queen and the rook.

In practical terms this is very difficult to do but theoritically it
is possible and therefore, the queen vs rook ending (with no pawns) is
a drawn ending.


Erm, why don't you just check this with tablebases? Then you'll see that it is
just not a draw.

I assume the kind of position that would satisfy your ideas would be
white has Kd1 and Re2, while black's pieces are far away e.g. Kf7 and Qf8
(obviously with black to move). According to the tablebase server black mates
in 28 moves:
e.g. 1...Qd6 2.Ke1 Qd4 3.Rd2 Qc5 4.Kd1 Ke6 5.Re2 Kd5 6.Rd2 Ke4 7.Re2 Kf3 8.Rc2
Qd5 9.Rd2 Qb5 10.Rc2 Ke3 11.Rc3 Kd4 12.Kc2 Qa4 13.Kb2 Qb4 14.Rb3 Qd2 15.Kb1
Kc4 16.Ra3 Qe2 17.Kc1 Kb4 18.Ra8 Qf1 19.Kc2 Qg2
black wins the rook and will obviously mate very soon (9 moves).

As you can see it's a rather lengthy business to seperate the white rook from
the king and to finally win it, so it's no great surprise that it's
technically difficult *to win* it. However it is just winning, even if you
didn't manage to do it, looking at the above I actually doubt that most
amateurs would manage it against perfect defense (as in the above example),
but that doesn't change it's theoretical status doesn't it?

--Björn
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2019 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Chess"

 

Copyright © 2017