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Old August 26th 04, 07:10 PM
xy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Training by cheating

I like to play on-line chess, blitz 3 0.
Playing blitz does not improve my play, I play bad openings and even worse
middle games and endings.

Some months ago I downloaded ChessVU, which has the capability to analyse in
parallel the log file generated by ICS Clients like Chessbd. I created an
opening book with almost 500K games from Chess Informant CDs, and downloaded
several chess engines (Yace and Ruffian are quite good, among the others).
Now I have a GrandMaster assistant for on-line play.

Here is how I use it. I run ChessVU as a background window, with the
analysis frame well visible; on top I run my Client (enabled to log the
games), with his chessboard. During the games, I try to be autonomous as far
as possible, but, depending on the opponent strength, I get precious
suggestions from the chess engine. I "drive" the chess engine towards the
openings and the positions I'm more interested about (my objective is to
build an opening repertoire, and to play the same opening lines until I
understand all the implications). I try to avoid opponent frustration. My
target is playing interesting games, and learning from practice, not just
winnning and winning, therefore I try to balance the cheating, avoiding
"machine moves" and introducing interesting but perhaps not entirely correct
variations (specially pawn sacrifices etc.). When I get a clear advantage I
ignore the engine output, and try to be on my own. The same happens during
zeitnot phase (no way to use the engine).

The only reason I have to increase my ICS score is to get access to top
on-line players, in order to play interesting games.

Now my on-line score is 2000; I try to stay there around (using the engine
at the best would bring me around 2200-2300, but I don't see this very
useful). If my score increases too much I relax the play (by introducing
more "experiments"), and of course lose several games. I'm learning a lot of
extremely interesting opening lines (from real GM games) that I would
otherwise have ignored. I don't feel my opponents upset; they are challenged
by my brilliant opening and middle game style, and they have the chance to
play against a machine that is much more "human" than a normal boot,
improves on played errors, exploits all possibilities of a given line etc.
(perhaps some of them are cheating themselves...). The played games are
really interesting, and I use to study them off-line after logging out, to
better memorise the opening and the key moments.

I believe this is an effective training tool. You cannot do the same against
a chess program, that will never behave like real on-line players. And there
is much more amusement. It is better than just browsing Chess Informant (or
other top player sources) games, because you can experiment in practice what
happens in a certain position, when a typical medium player plays it.
Finally, it is much faster: you can go through a lot of different lines in a
limited time. During middle game, if a winning combination is on the board
you will not miss it (you can decide to play or not it, but you know it is
there, and you will anlayse it off-line, and make treasure of it - because
you have "almost played" it, it will remain vividly in your memory).
Endings, of course, remain out - blitz games are not for endgames, with few
exceptions.

Fritz could be used (I suppose) in the same way (I don't like ChessBase
monopoly, therefore I use ChessVU). ChessVU is fine, because you can easily
adjust your opening repertoire (by changing books, built from PGN games),
and also the playing style (more than 40 engines available on the Web).

Is it unethical ? Is it so different from learning by heart opening lines
from books ?

Is it a new kind of game ("engine-chess", where you "drive" the chess
engine), like motorbiking vs. biking ?

I personally don't care about playing against "cheaters", the important
think is to believe they are strong humans, to be motivated to play good
chess; I don't like to play against chess programs, when I know they are
chess programs; if somebody logs in saying he is Anand, I will be excited to
lose against whom I believe is Anand, and learn a lot from the game... At
the end, what is real ? what is virtual ?




  #2   Report Post  
Old August 26th 04, 10:44 PM
Henri H. Arsenault
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:10:54 GMT, "xy" wrote:



Is it unethical ? Is it so different from learning by heart opening lines
from books ?

It IS unethical, what you are doing is cheating, and if you are
caught, you will be forced into identifying yourself as a computer (On
ICC, this puts a C next to your name).

Like most cheaters and thiefs, you think only of yourself and
disregard the problems that your cheating creates for others.

There are better equivalent ways to use computers to increase your
strength (for example by using bookup), but I dare hope that you will
forever remain the patzer that corresponds to your patzer moral level!

Henri
  #3   Report Post  
Old August 26th 04, 11:24 PM
Guy Macon
 
Posts: n/a
Default


xy says...

(Concerning using a computer to assist while playing online)

Is it unethical?


If you identify yourself as a person using a computer (C next to your
name on ICC, other forums may have different ways) then it's entirely
ethical. If you pretend to be a human playing alone, you deserve to be
hung by your heels with your head in a bucket and fed a powerful laxative.

  #4   Report Post  
Old August 27th 04, 05:47 AM
My name is Mac, not Spam
 
Posts: n/a
Default

in article , xy at wrote on
8/26/04 2:10 PM:

Is it unethical ? Is it so different from learning by heart opening lines
from books ?

Is it a new kind of game ("engine-chess", where you "drive" the chess
engine), like motorbiking vs. biking ?

I personally don't care about playing against "cheaters", the important
think is to believe they are strong humans, to be motivated to play good
chess; I don't like to play against chess programs, when I know they are
chess programs; if somebody logs in saying he is Anand, I will be excited to
lose against whom I believe is Anand, and learn a lot from the game... At
the end, what is real ? what is virtual ?


An interesting approach. On the question of ethics, it's really very simple.
Forget arguments about victims and consequences and equivalence. There's a
far more basic principle involved: honesty.

By convention, accounts that use chess engines are labeled as such with the
"(C)" moniker. By logging on without the "scarlet letter", you are de facto
making the claim to everyone else on the server that you do not use a chess
engine in the generation of your moves. That's a lie, regardless of intent
or effect.

By analogy:

If there is a law requiring that food made from agricultural products that
have been genetically engineered be labeled as such, then any company that
markets a genetically enhanced product without proper labeling is unethical.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the law is a good one or if
genetically enhanced foods are any different from "natural" foods or
not--the company is lying, which is itself unethical by nearly any standard
you might wish to apply.

Now, I think it might actually be worth considering a separate type of
account for "cyborgs" such as yourself. I can imagine many users of chess
servers would feel one way about playing a straight up computer program,
another way about playing a "natural" human being, and a third way about
playing against a hybrid account such as you describe. Until such time,
though, you should be operating as a Computer account, by the standards and
conventions currently in place in the online chess playing community.

--
Glenn "Mac" Frazier USCF# 12721233
FICS: 'Frazier'
http://mac.thefraziers.org/ RedHotPawn.com: 'GMF'



  #5   Report Post  
Old August 27th 04, 08:25 AM
HD
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Now, I think it might actually be worth considering a separate type of
account for "cyborgs" such as yourself.


It exists at Chessbase Playchess, it's called "centaur", and it's
something you define when your'e logged on to their Engine-room.

I can imagine many users of chess
servers would feel one way about playing a straight up computer program,
another way about playing a "natural" human being, and a third way about
playing against a hybrid account such as you describe.




  #6   Report Post  
Old August 27th 04, 02:42 PM
PeteCasso
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It exists at Chessbase Playchess, it's called "centaur", and it's
something you define when your'e logged on to their Engine-room.


It is also similar to 'Advanced Chess' that Kasparov used to promulgate, and
a few 'Advance Chess' tournaments were held. As others pointed out, OK and
only OK as long as and only if you declare upfront what you are doing.


  #7   Report Post  
Old August 28th 04, 12:21 PM
Sid James
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ooh matron you musn't cheat!

Are you fukaka's brother?


xy wrote in message ...
I like to play on-line chess, blitz 3 0.
Playing blitz does not improve my play, I play bad openings and even worse
middle games and endings.

Some months ago I downloaded ChessVU, which has the capability to analyse

in
parallel the log file generated by ICS Clients like Chessbd. I created an
opening book with almost 500K games from Chess Informant CDs, and

downloaded
several chess engines (Yace and Ruffian are quite good, among the others).
Now I have a GrandMaster assistant for on-line play.

Here is how I use it. I run ChessVU as a background window, with the
analysis frame well visible; on top I run my Client (enabled to log the
games), with his chessboard. During the games, I try to be autonomous as

far
as possible, but, depending on the opponent strength, I get precious
suggestions from the chess engine. I "drive" the chess engine towards the
openings and the positions I'm more interested about (my objective is to
build an opening repertoire, and to play the same opening lines until I
understand all the implications). I try to avoid opponent frustration. My
target is playing interesting games, and learning from practice, not just
winnning and winning, therefore I try to balance the cheating, avoiding
"machine moves" and introducing interesting but perhaps not entirely

correct
variations (specially pawn sacrifices etc.). When I get a clear advantage

I
ignore the engine output, and try to be on my own. The same happens during
zeitnot phase (no way to use the engine).

The only reason I have to increase my ICS score is to get access to top
on-line players, in order to play interesting games.

Now my on-line score is 2000; I try to stay there around (using the

engine
at the best would bring me around 2200-2300, but I don't see this very
useful). If my score increases too much I relax the play (by introducing
more "experiments"), and of course lose several games. I'm learning a lot

of
extremely interesting opening lines (from real GM games) that I would
otherwise have ignored. I don't feel my opponents upset; they are

challenged
by my brilliant opening and middle game style, and they have the chance to
play against a machine that is much more "human" than a normal boot,
improves on played errors, exploits all possibilities of a given line etc.
(perhaps some of them are cheating themselves...). The played games are
really interesting, and I use to study them off-line after logging out, to
better memorise the opening and the key moments.

I believe this is an effective training tool. You cannot do the same

against
a chess program, that will never behave like real on-line players. And

there
is much more amusement. It is better than just browsing Chess Informant

(or
other top player sources) games, because you can experiment in practice

what
happens in a certain position, when a typical medium player plays it.
Finally, it is much faster: you can go through a lot of different lines in

a
limited time. During middle game, if a winning combination is on the board
you will not miss it (you can decide to play or not it, but you know it is
there, and you will anlayse it off-line, and make treasure of it - because
you have "almost played" it, it will remain vividly in your memory).
Endings, of course, remain out - blitz games are not for endgames, with

few
exceptions.

Fritz could be used (I suppose) in the same way (I don't like ChessBase
monopoly, therefore I use ChessVU). ChessVU is fine, because you can

easily
adjust your opening repertoire (by changing books, built from PGN games),
and also the playing style (more than 40 engines available on the Web).

Is it unethical ? Is it so different from learning by heart opening lines
from books ?

Is it a new kind of game ("engine-chess", where you "drive" the chess
engine), like motorbiking vs. biking ?

I personally don't care about playing against "cheaters", the important
think is to believe they are strong humans, to be motivated to play good
chess; I don't like to play against chess programs, when I know they are
chess programs; if somebody logs in saying he is Anand, I will be excited

to
lose against whom I believe is Anand, and learn a lot from the game... At
the end, what is real ? what is virtual ?






  #8   Report Post  
Old August 30th 04, 07:26 PM
Duncan
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Last time I was in a bike race they didn't allow motorcycles.


"xy" wrote in message ...
I like to play on-line chess, blitz 3 0.
Playing blitz does not improve my play, I play bad openings and even worse
middle games and endings.

Is it unethical ? Is it so different from learning by heart opening lines
from books ?

Is it a new kind of game ("engine-chess", where you "drive" the chess
engine), like motorbiking vs. biking ?





  #9   Report Post  
Old August 31st 04, 02:54 PM
Jacob Ward
 
Posts: n/a
Default

How can you not call it unethical? It's people doing this that ruin
online chess as a viable medium for competitions.

"xy" wrote in message ...
I like to play on-line chess, blitz 3 0.
Playing blitz does not improve my play, I play bad openings and even worse
middle games and endings.

Some months ago I downloaded ChessVU, which has the capability to analyse in
parallel the log file generated by ICS Clients like Chessbd. I created an
opening book with almost 500K games from Chess Informant CDs, and downloaded
several chess engines (Yace and Ruffian are quite good, among the others).
Now I have a GrandMaster assistant for on-line play.

Here is how I use it. I run ChessVU as a background window, with the
analysis frame well visible; on top I run my Client (enabled to log the
games), with his chessboard. During the games, I try to be autonomous as far
as possible, but, depending on the opponent strength, I get precious
suggestions from the chess engine. I "drive" the chess engine towards the
openings and the positions I'm more interested about (my objective is to
build an opening repertoire, and to play the same opening lines until I
understand all the implications). I try to avoid opponent frustration. My
target is playing interesting games, and learning from practice, not just
winnning and winning, therefore I try to balance the cheating, avoiding
"machine moves" and introducing interesting but perhaps not entirely correct
variations (specially pawn sacrifices etc.). When I get a clear advantage I
ignore the engine output, and try to be on my own. The same happens during
zeitnot phase (no way to use the engine).

The only reason I have to increase my ICS score is to get access to top
on-line players, in order to play interesting games.

Now my on-line score is 2000; I try to stay there around (using the engine
at the best would bring me around 2200-2300, but I don't see this very
useful). If my score increases too much I relax the play (by introducing
more "experiments"), and of course lose several games. I'm learning a lot of
extremely interesting opening lines (from real GM games) that I would
otherwise have ignored. I don't feel my opponents upset; they are challenged
by my brilliant opening and middle game style, and they have the chance to
play against a machine that is much more "human" than a normal boot,
improves on played errors, exploits all possibilities of a given line etc.
(perhaps some of them are cheating themselves...). The played games are
really interesting, and I use to study them off-line after logging out, to
better memorise the opening and the key moments.

I believe this is an effective training tool. You cannot do the same against
a chess program, that will never behave like real on-line players. And there
is much more amusement. It is better than just browsing Chess Informant (or
other top player sources) games, because you can experiment in practice what
happens in a certain position, when a typical medium player plays it.
Finally, it is much faster: you can go through a lot of different lines in a
limited time. During middle game, if a winning combination is on the board
you will not miss it (you can decide to play or not it, but you know it is
there, and you will anlayse it off-line, and make treasure of it - because
you have "almost played" it, it will remain vividly in your memory).
Endings, of course, remain out - blitz games are not for endgames, with few
exceptions.

Fritz could be used (I suppose) in the same way (I don't like ChessBase
monopoly, therefore I use ChessVU). ChessVU is fine, because you can easily
adjust your opening repertoire (by changing books, built from PGN games),
and also the playing style (more than 40 engines available on the Web).

Is it unethical ? Is it so different from learning by heart opening lines
from books ?

Is it a new kind of game ("engine-chess", where you "drive" the chess
engine), like motorbiking vs. biking ?

I personally don't care about playing against "cheaters", the important
think is to believe they are strong humans, to be motivated to play good
chess; I don't like to play against chess programs, when I know they are
chess programs; if somebody logs in saying he is Anand, I will be excited to
lose against whom I believe is Anand, and learn a lot from the game... At
the end, what is real ? what is virtual ?

  #10   Report Post  
Old August 31st 04, 04:23 PM
Guy Macon
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jacob Ward says...

How can you not call it unethical? It's people doing this that ruin
online chess as a viable medium for competitions.


Here are some references if you are interested in
improving the quality of your posts to newsgroups:

"When thou enter a city, abide by its customs."

Bottom vs. top posting and quotation style on Usenet
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html

Why bottom-posting is better than top-posting
http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html

+What do you mean "my reply is upside-down"?
http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/

The advantages of usenet's quoting conventions
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/g.mccau...ks/uquote.html

Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Top-post...bottom-posting

Quoting Style in Newsgroup Postings
http://www.xs4all.nl/%7ewijnands/nnq/nquote.html

Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes with this automated fix!
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

From (spit!) microsoft:

"When including text from a previous message in the thread,
trim it down to include only text pertinent to your response.
Your response should appear below the quoted information."
- http://www.jsiinc.com/newsgroup_document.htm


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