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Old April 15th 04, 01:00 PM
Dr. David Kirkby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?

I draw a game of chess on ICC (45 0) which I *think* I should have
won, although it ended in a draw.

I had a queen at the end, my opponent a knight. For a long time I was
trying unsucessfully to checkmate my opponent, but each time I tried,
his knight got in the way. I was eventually running low on time (I had
about one minute, my opponent 38 mins), and managed to get my queen
and king falked by mistake, so obviously my opponent took my queen and
it was a draw. But was it possible for me to get a win, had I played
better?

Desite having numerous chess books, I don't seem at first glance at
least, to have anything showing how to force checkmate with a queen vs
a knight.

I just witnessed a bullet game (1 0) on ICC with two GM's, which ended
in the same way. It took the GM with the queen 15 moves to get
checkmate after only the queen and knight were on the board. Clearly
the GM with the knight did not resign, so I guess he thought he had a
chance.

What is the procedure for this? Can mate be forced, or is it possible
to defend and get a draw? If mate can be fouced, how does one do it?

This is the game I played. It was a pretty poor game from both
players, but the end is puzzling me?

[Event "ICC 45 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.04.14"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Wheels33"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ICCResult "Game drawn because neither player has mating material"]
[WhiteElo "1379"]
[BlackElo "1303"]
[Opening "French defense"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "22:32:38"]
[TimeControl "2700+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Bd3 Bd6 6. O-O Qd7 7. Ne5
Bxe5
8. dxe5 Ne4 9. f3 Nc5 10. Be2 O-O 11. Qd4 Nba6 12. b4 Ne6 13. Qd2 Re8
14.
Bb2 c5 15. bxc5 Naxc5 16. Bd4 b6 17. Nc3 Nxd4 18. Qxd4 Qf5 19. f4 Qxc2
20.
Rfc1 Qf5 21. Rf1 Bb7 22. a4 Nb3 23. Bd3 Nxd4 24. Bxf5 Nxf5 25. Rad1
Ne3 26.
Rde1 Nxf1 27. Rxf1 Rad8 28. Nb5 d4 29. Nd6 Re7 30. Rd1 g6 31. Rxd4 Bc6
32.
Kf2 Kg7 33. Nf5+ Kf8 34. Rxd8+ Re8 35. Rxe8+ Bxe8 36. Nd6 Bxa4 37. Ke3
b5
38. Kd3 b4 39. Kc4 b3 40. Kc3 Ke7 41. Kb2 f6 42. Nc8+ Ke6 43. exf6
Kxf6 44.
Nxa7 Kf5 45. g3 Kg4 46. Ka3 Kh3 47. Nc8 Kxh2 48. Nd6 Kxg3 49. f5 gxf5
50.
Nxf5+ Kg4 51. Nh6+ Kh5 52. Nf5 Kg5 53. Ng3 h5 54. Ne4+ Kf4 55. Nc3 h4
56.
Nxa4 h3 57. Nc3 h2 58. Ne2+ Kg4 59. Kxb3 h1=Q 60. Nc3 Kf3 61. Kc4 Qc1
62.
Kd3 Kf2 63. Ne4+ Ke1 64. Kd4 Ke2 65. Nc3+ Kd2 66. Ne4+ Kd1 67. Nf2+
Ke1 68.
Nd3+ Kd1 69. Nxc1 {Game drawn because neither player has mating
material}
1/2-1/2


Dr. David Kirkby
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Old April 15th 04, 03:00 PM
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?

Dr. David Kirkby m wrote:
Desite having numerous chess books, I don't seem at first glance at
least, to have anything showing how to force checkmate with a queen vs
a knight.


It doesn't seem to be in any of mine, either. I would suggest practising
against a computer with tablebases. If you get into too many situations
where the computer gives up the knight for no good reason except that the
resulting KQK endgame is a longer mate than the KQKN endgame, try turning
the tablebases off.


I just witnessed a bullet game (1 0) on ICC with two GM's, which ended
in the same way. It took the GM with the queen 15 moves to get
checkmate after only the queen and knight were on the board. Clearly
the GM with the knight did not resign, so I guess he thought he had a
chance.


In a 1-0 game where there are legal moves available, both players have a
chance! :-)


Dave.

--
David Richerby Addictive Composer (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ pupil of Beethoven but you can never
put it down!
  #3   Report Post  
Old April 15th 04, 03:32 PM
bruno de baenst
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?

I don't think there are books who would waste any space on this, of course
the queen wins easily.
Why the gm played on was cause it was a 1 minute game, not cause chesswise
he would still have a chance.
You don't need a method to win this, all you have to do is think.

"Dr. David Kirkby" m
schreef in bericht om...
I draw a game of chess on ICC (45 0) which I *think* I should have
won, although it ended in a draw.

I had a queen at the end, my opponent a knight. For a long time I was
trying unsucessfully to checkmate my opponent, but each time I tried,
his knight got in the way. I was eventually running low on time (I had
about one minute, my opponent 38 mins), and managed to get my queen
and king falked by mistake, so obviously my opponent took my queen and
it was a draw. But was it possible for me to get a win, had I played
better?

Desite having numerous chess books, I don't seem at first glance at
least, to have anything showing how to force checkmate with a queen vs
a knight.

I just witnessed a bullet game (1 0) on ICC with two GM's, which ended
in the same way. It took the GM with the queen 15 moves to get
checkmate after only the queen and knight were on the board. Clearly
the GM with the knight did not resign, so I guess he thought he had a
chance.

What is the procedure for this? Can mate be forced, or is it possible
to defend and get a draw? If mate can be fouced, how does one do it?

This is the game I played. It was a pretty poor game from both
players, but the end is puzzling me?

[Event "ICC 45 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.04.14"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Wheels33"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ICCResult "Game drawn because neither player has mating material"]
[WhiteElo "1379"]
[BlackElo "1303"]
[Opening "French defense"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "22:32:38"]
[TimeControl "2700+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Bd3 Bd6 6. O-O Qd7 7. Ne5
Bxe5
8. dxe5 Ne4 9. f3 Nc5 10. Be2 O-O 11. Qd4 Nba6 12. b4 Ne6 13. Qd2 Re8
14.
Bb2 c5 15. bxc5 Naxc5 16. Bd4 b6 17. Nc3 Nxd4 18. Qxd4 Qf5 19. f4 Qxc2
20.
Rfc1 Qf5 21. Rf1 Bb7 22. a4 Nb3 23. Bd3 Nxd4 24. Bxf5 Nxf5 25. Rad1
Ne3 26.
Rde1 Nxf1 27. Rxf1 Rad8 28. Nb5 d4 29. Nd6 Re7 30. Rd1 g6 31. Rxd4 Bc6
32.
Kf2 Kg7 33. Nf5+ Kf8 34. Rxd8+ Re8 35. Rxe8+ Bxe8 36. Nd6 Bxa4 37. Ke3
b5
38. Kd3 b4 39. Kc4 b3 40. Kc3 Ke7 41. Kb2 f6 42. Nc8+ Ke6 43. exf6
Kxf6 44.
Nxa7 Kf5 45. g3 Kg4 46. Ka3 Kh3 47. Nc8 Kxh2 48. Nd6 Kxg3 49. f5 gxf5
50.
Nxf5+ Kg4 51. Nh6+ Kh5 52. Nf5 Kg5 53. Ng3 h5 54. Ne4+ Kf4 55. Nc3 h4
56.
Nxa4 h3 57. Nc3 h2 58. Ne2+ Kg4 59. Kxb3 h1=Q 60. Nc3 Kf3 61. Kc4 Qc1
62.
Kd3 Kf2 63. Ne4+ Ke1 64. Kd4 Ke2 65. Nc3+ Kd2 66. Ne4+ Kd1 67. Nf2+
Ke1 68.
Nd3+ Kd1 69. Nxc1 {Game drawn because neither player has mating
material}
1/2-1/2


Dr. David Kirkby



  #4   Report Post  
Old April 15th 04, 05:46 PM
Mr. Plow
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?

Much like Q vs R endings, this is usually a forced win for the stronger
side, but it is not a trivial matter to achieve it against best play.

The key in both these endings is to separate the defending piece from its
king, thus making it vulnerable to a double attack. Easier said than done.
Usually, a tempo-wasting move is required by the stronger side, and these
are not always easy to figure out.

The good news is that in OTB games, the weaker opponent is not likely to
make the strongest moves time and again. Therefore, the stronger side has
excellent practical changes of converting these endings into a win.

You can practice both of these endings (KQ vs kr, or KQ vs KN) on ICC. Look
for the bots named "KQkr" and "KQkn".

Also notice in the "Games Sought" window that both of these bots are given
ratings over 2000. Surely not accurate, but a good indication of how
difficult these endings can be. KQ vs K, and KBB vs. K, by comparison, are
given ratings in the 1600 level.

By the way, Q vs B is a much easier win, in my experience.


"Dr. David Kirkby" m wrote
in message om...
I draw a game of chess on ICC (45 0) which I *think* I should have
won, although it ended in a draw.




  #5   Report Post  
Old April 15th 04, 06:19 PM
Neil Coward
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?

It is a tricky ending to win and well worth remembering if you are heading
for a time scramble.
I had an ending once with knight vs rook and pawn about to queen, I could
have done knight takes pawn then after rook takes knight I surely get mates
with k vs k and r but instead I took the rook and held on with knight vs
queen.

Worth remembering if your opponent is short of time.




"Dr. David Kirkby" m wrote
in message om...
I draw a game of chess on ICC (45 0) which I *think* I should have
won, although it ended in a draw.

I had a queen at the end, my opponent a knight. For a long time I was
trying unsucessfully to checkmate my opponent, but each time I tried,
his knight got in the way. I was eventually running low on time (I had
about one minute, my opponent 38 mins), and managed to get my queen
and king falked by mistake, so obviously my opponent took my queen and
it was a draw. But was it possible for me to get a win, had I played
better?

Desite having numerous chess books, I don't seem at first glance at
least, to have anything showing how to force checkmate with a queen vs
a knight.

I just witnessed a bullet game (1 0) on ICC with two GM's, which ended
in the same way. It took the GM with the queen 15 moves to get
checkmate after only the queen and knight were on the board. Clearly
the GM with the knight did not resign, so I guess he thought he had a
chance.

What is the procedure for this? Can mate be forced, or is it possible
to defend and get a draw? If mate can be fouced, how does one do it?

This is the game I played. It was a pretty poor game from both
players, but the end is puzzling me?

[Event "ICC 45 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.04.14"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Wheels33"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ICCResult "Game drawn because neither player has mating material"]
[WhiteElo "1379"]
[BlackElo "1303"]
[Opening "French defense"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "22:32:38"]
[TimeControl "2700+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Bd3 Bd6 6. O-O Qd7 7. Ne5
Bxe5
8. dxe5 Ne4 9. f3 Nc5 10. Be2 O-O 11. Qd4 Nba6 12. b4 Ne6 13. Qd2 Re8
14.
Bb2 c5 15. bxc5 Naxc5 16. Bd4 b6 17. Nc3 Nxd4 18. Qxd4 Qf5 19. f4 Qxc2
20.
Rfc1 Qf5 21. Rf1 Bb7 22. a4 Nb3 23. Bd3 Nxd4 24. Bxf5 Nxf5 25. Rad1
Ne3 26.
Rde1 Nxf1 27. Rxf1 Rad8 28. Nb5 d4 29. Nd6 Re7 30. Rd1 g6 31. Rxd4 Bc6
32.
Kf2 Kg7 33. Nf5+ Kf8 34. Rxd8+ Re8 35. Rxe8+ Bxe8 36. Nd6 Bxa4 37. Ke3
b5
38. Kd3 b4 39. Kc4 b3 40. Kc3 Ke7 41. Kb2 f6 42. Nc8+ Ke6 43. exf6
Kxf6 44.
Nxa7 Kf5 45. g3 Kg4 46. Ka3 Kh3 47. Nc8 Kxh2 48. Nd6 Kxg3 49. f5 gxf5
50.
Nxf5+ Kg4 51. Nh6+ Kh5 52. Nf5 Kg5 53. Ng3 h5 54. Ne4+ Kf4 55. Nc3 h4
56.
Nxa4 h3 57. Nc3 h2 58. Ne2+ Kg4 59. Kxb3 h1=Q 60. Nc3 Kf3 61. Kc4 Qc1
62.
Kd3 Kf2 63. Ne4+ Ke1 64. Kd4 Ke2 65. Nc3+ Kd2 66. Ne4+ Kd1 67. Nf2+
Ke1 68.
Nd3+ Kd1 69. Nxc1 {Game drawn because neither player has mating
material}
1/2-1/2


Dr. David Kirkby





  #6   Report Post  
Old April 15th 04, 07:57 PM
Dr. David Kirkby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?

"bruno de baenst" wrote in message ...
I don't think there are books who would waste any space on this, of course
the queen wins easily.


Well that depends on your ability and experience of course.

Queen + king vs king is easy when you know how, but not so easy if you
don't.

King vs king + 2 bishops is covered in books, yet the number of games
ending that must be quite small. I suspect covering the king + queen
vs king + knight would be more practically usefule to know useful.

Why the gm played on was cause it was a 1 minute game, not cause chesswise
he would still have a chance.


I guess that's one reason the whole idea of playing 1 0 bullet games
is a bit silly to me, but many obviously choose to play it.

You don't need a method to win this, all you have to do is think.

I was low on time. Perhaps some idea of a sound method would have won
me a game I drew.

Dr David Kirkby
  #7   Report Post  
Old April 15th 04, 08:10 PM
Ray Gordon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?

The goal is to pin the knight and approach with the king while avoiding
being forked, then triangulate with the queen to force the knight away from
the king.



--
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The Seduction Library Forum
"Dr. David Kirkby" m wrote
in message om...
I draw a game of chess on ICC (45 0) which I *think* I should have
won, although it ended in a draw.

I had a queen at the end, my opponent a knight. For a long time I was
trying unsucessfully to checkmate my opponent, but each time I tried,
his knight got in the way. I was eventually running low on time (I had
about one minute, my opponent 38 mins), and managed to get my queen
and king falked by mistake, so obviously my opponent took my queen and
it was a draw. But was it possible for me to get a win, had I played
better?

Desite having numerous chess books, I don't seem at first glance at
least, to have anything showing how to force checkmate with a queen vs
a knight.

I just witnessed a bullet game (1 0) on ICC with two GM's, which ended
in the same way. It took the GM with the queen 15 moves to get
checkmate after only the queen and knight were on the board. Clearly
the GM with the knight did not resign, so I guess he thought he had a
chance.

What is the procedure for this? Can mate be forced, or is it possible
to defend and get a draw? If mate can be fouced, how does one do it?

This is the game I played. It was a pretty poor game from both
players, but the end is puzzling me?

[Event "ICC 45 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.04.14"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Wheels33"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ICCResult "Game drawn because neither player has mating material"]
[WhiteElo "1379"]
[BlackElo "1303"]
[Opening "French defense"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "22:32:38"]
[TimeControl "2700+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Bd3 Bd6 6. O-O Qd7 7. Ne5
Bxe5
8. dxe5 Ne4 9. f3 Nc5 10. Be2 O-O 11. Qd4 Nba6 12. b4 Ne6 13. Qd2 Re8
14.
Bb2 c5 15. bxc5 Naxc5 16. Bd4 b6 17. Nc3 Nxd4 18. Qxd4 Qf5 19. f4 Qxc2
20.
Rfc1 Qf5 21. Rf1 Bb7 22. a4 Nb3 23. Bd3 Nxd4 24. Bxf5 Nxf5 25. Rad1
Ne3 26.
Rde1 Nxf1 27. Rxf1 Rad8 28. Nb5 d4 29. Nd6 Re7 30. Rd1 g6 31. Rxd4 Bc6
32.
Kf2 Kg7 33. Nf5+ Kf8 34. Rxd8+ Re8 35. Rxe8+ Bxe8 36. Nd6 Bxa4 37. Ke3
b5
38. Kd3 b4 39. Kc4 b3 40. Kc3 Ke7 41. Kb2 f6 42. Nc8+ Ke6 43. exf6
Kxf6 44.
Nxa7 Kf5 45. g3 Kg4 46. Ka3 Kh3 47. Nc8 Kxh2 48. Nd6 Kxg3 49. f5 gxf5
50.
Nxf5+ Kg4 51. Nh6+ Kh5 52. Nf5 Kg5 53. Ng3 h5 54. Ne4+ Kf4 55. Nc3 h4
56.
Nxa4 h3 57. Nc3 h2 58. Ne2+ Kg4 59. Kxb3 h1=Q 60. Nc3 Kf3 61. Kc4 Qc1
62.
Kd3 Kf2 63. Ne4+ Ke1 64. Kd4 Ke2 65. Nc3+ Kd2 66. Ne4+ Kd1 67. Nf2+
Ke1 68.
Nd3+ Kd1 69. Nxc1 {Game drawn because neither player has mating
material}
1/2-1/2


Dr. David Kirkby



  #8   Report Post  
Old April 15th 04, 08:14 PM
Alan O'Brien
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?


"Neil Coward" wrote in message
...
It is a tricky ending to win and well worth remembering if you are heading
for a time scramble.
I had an ending once with knight vs rook and pawn about to queen, I could
have done knight takes pawn then after rook takes knight I surely get

mates
with k vs k and r but instead I took the rook and held on with knight vs
queen.

Worth remembering if your opponent is short of time.


That was a clever move!
The ending you mention reminds me of Lasker v Lasker NY 1924.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1272756
(you need Java). Same material, also drawn.
--
Alan O'Brien
London
England


  #9   Report Post  
Old April 15th 04, 09:32 PM
Mike Ogush
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?

On 15 Apr 2004 05:00:01 -0700,
(Dr. David Kirkby)
wrote:

I draw a game of chess on ICC (45 0) which I *think* I should have
won, although it ended in a draw.

I had a queen at the end, my opponent a knight. For a long time I was
trying unsucessfully to checkmate my opponent, but each time I tried,
his knight got in the way. I was eventually running low on time (I had
about one minute, my opponent 38 mins), and managed to get my queen
and king falked by mistake, so obviously my opponent took my queen and
it was a draw. But was it possible for me to get a win, had I played
better?

Desite having numerous chess books, I don't seem at first glance at
least, to have anything showing how to force checkmate with a queen vs
a knight.


I don't have a copy of Nunn's "Secret's of Pawnless Endings" in front
of me at the moment, but I believe that it talks about K+Q vs. K+N
endings. Nunn's ending books are fairly advanced, but don't know if
there is other info on this ending.

I just witnessed a bullet game (1 0) on ICC with two GM's, which ended
in the same way. It took the GM with the queen 15 moves to get
checkmate after only the queen and knight were on the board. Clearly
the GM with the knight did not resign, so I guess he thought he had a
chance.

What is the procedure for this? Can mate be forced, or is it possible
to defend and get a draw? If mate can be fouced, how does one do it?

This is the game I played. It was a pretty poor game from both
players, but the end is puzzling me?

[Event "ICC 45 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.04.14"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Wheels33"]
[Black "g8wrb"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ICCResult "Game drawn because neither player has mating material"]
[WhiteElo "1379"]
[BlackElo "1303"]
[Opening "French defense"]
[ECO "C00"]
[NIC "FR.01"]
[Time "22:32:38"]
[TimeControl "2700+0"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Bd3 Bd6 6. O-O Qd7 7. Ne5
Bxe5
8. dxe5 Ne4 9. f3 Nc5 10. Be2 O-O 11. Qd4 Nba6 12. b4 Ne6 13. Qd2 Re8
14.
Bb2 c5 15. bxc5 Naxc5 16. Bd4 b6 17. Nc3 Nxd4 18. Qxd4 Qf5 19. f4 Qxc2
20.
Rfc1 Qf5 21. Rf1 Bb7 22. a4 Nb3 23. Bd3 Nxd4 24. Bxf5 Nxf5 25. Rad1
Ne3 26.
Rde1 Nxf1 27. Rxf1 Rad8 28. Nb5 d4 29. Nd6 Re7 30. Rd1 g6 31. Rxd4 Bc6
32.
Kf2 Kg7 33. Nf5+ Kf8 34. Rxd8+ Re8 35. Rxe8+ Bxe8 36. Nd6 Bxa4 37. Ke3
b5
38. Kd3 b4 39. Kc4 b3 40. Kc3 Ke7 41. Kb2 f6 42. Nc8+ Ke6 43. exf6
Kxf6 44.
Nxa7 Kf5 45. g3 Kg4 46. Ka3 Kh3 47. Nc8 Kxh2 48. Nd6 Kxg3 49. f5 gxf5
50.
Nxf5+ Kg4 51. Nh6+ Kh5 52. Nf5 Kg5 53. Ng3 h5 54. Ne4+ Kf4 55. Nc3 h4
56.
Nxa4 h3 57. Nc3 h2 58. Ne2+ Kg4 59. Kxb3 h1=Q 60. Nc3 Kf3 61. Kc4 Qc1
62.
Kd3 Kf2 63. Ne4+ Ke1 64. Kd4 Ke2 65. Nc3+ Kd2 66. Ne4+ Kd1 67. Nf2+
Ke1 68.
Nd3+ Kd1 69. Nxc1 {Game drawn because neither player has mating
material}
1/2-1/2


Dr. David Kirkby


  #10   Report Post  
Old April 16th 04, 03:08 AM
Entropyfoe
 
Posts: n/a
Default Queen vs. knight - draw or win ?

I know the book is old, and probably superceeded by computer analysis, but
Rubin Fine's BCE lists #604 [White K at a1, Q at b1-black-K at e6, N at d6]as a
simple win in all cases "by excercising a modicum of caution white will soon
force mate." after 16 moves black has to sac the N to avoid mate.

I know what you mean, I had trouble against my computer, until I looked this
up. Once you see the method, you can do it. But in time trouble, as several
posters have said, it can be less than 100%
-Jay
entr0pyf0e
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