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Old April 17th 04, 07:03 AM
Socialista
 
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Default Please some suggestion for save the game! :)

Hi!

I lost this game at IECG, but the worse part is what i dont know wich
was my mistakes, any suggestion could be very welcomed.

Thanks,
Jorge

[Event "CP.2001.S.00004"]
[Site "IECG"]
[Date "2003.10.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Quinones, Jorge"]
[Black "Braun, Ingram H"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B06"]
[WhiteElo "1800"]
[BlackElo "2240"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 a6 5. f4 b5 6. Bd3 Bb7 7. Nf3 Nd7
8. e5 Nh6 9. Qe2 b4 10. Ne4 Nf5 11. Bd2 c5 12. c3 O-O 13. O-O cxd4
14. cxd4 Qb6 15. Qf2 Rac8 16. Rac1 Bd5 17. a4 a5 18. h3 Rfd8 19. g4
Rxc1 20. Bxc1 dxe5 21. dxe5 Qb7 22. Re1 Nh6 23. Nd4 f5 24. exf6 Nxf6
25. Nxf6+ Bxf6 26. f5 g5 27. Be3 Nf7 28.Rd1 Ne5 29. Be2 Bc4 30. Rd2
Bxe2 31. Qxe2 h5
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Old April 17th 04, 10:02 AM
Ron
 
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Default Please some suggestion for save the game! :)

In article ,
(Socialista) wrote:


[Event "CP.2001.S.00004"]
[Site "IECG"]
[Date "2003.10.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Quinones, Jorge"]
[Black "Braun, Ingram H"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B06"]
[WhiteElo "1800"]
[BlackElo "2240"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 a6 5. f4 b5 6. Bd3 Bb7 7. Nf3 Nd7
8. e5 Nh6 9. Qe2 b4 10. Ne4 Nf5 11. Bd2 c5 12. c3 O-O 13. O-O cxd4
14. cxd4 Qb6 15. Qf2 Rac8 16. Rac1 Bd5 17. a4 a5 18. h3 Rfd8 19. g4
Rxc1 20. Bxc1 dxe5 21. dxe5 Qb7 22. Re1 Nh6 23. Nd4 f5 24. exf6 Nxf6
25. Nxf6+ Bxf6 26. f5 g5 27. Be3 Nf7 28.Rd1 Ne5 29. Be2 Bc4 30. Rd2
Bxe2 31. Qxe2 h5


You may well both be stronger than me, but to my eye it looks like
somewhere around move 15 you started completely reacting to black's
threats rather than trying to get anything going on your own.

16.Rc1 strikes me a possibly not neccesary because black isn't
threatening to invade down the c-file, which is well-protected by your
bishops.

And 17.a4 is a completely reactive move. I would strongly have
considered playing for the initiative with 17. g4!? If he wants to
decentralizie his bishop and take the pressure off your center, let him!

The point being that 17.g4 Nh6 18.Qg4 (already your center is under
less pressure) Bxa2?! 19.Rxc8 and Qxe7 gets the pawn back because the e7
N is hanging. Now all of a sudden black is reacting to your threats (how
is he going to protect the knight?) rather than dictacting the pace of
the game.

He can play something like 19.Rxc8 Rxc8 20.Qxe7 Be6 21.Nxd6 Rb8 (the
b-pawn is suddenly a live target, and he doesn't want to tie his queen
down to it) when the f4-f5 thrust is suddenly in the cards. I haven't
spent a ton of time on this, but it could very well be winning. You have
to be tactically alert because the d-pawn could fall with check, but
that's just the sort of counterplay that could get black to play into
this line.

This actually looks like a classic case of "see what happens if you
ignore your opponent's threat." It's clear that black is much smarter to
avoid the pawn-grab, and either ...f6 or ...f5 (hitting at your center
directly or forcing you to give him back the f5 square for his N, so it
can hit d4) looks like a reasonable play for black, after which he may
still be better -- but a lot of black players will grab the pawn here
unless they see a refutation.

Another move that I'm not crazy about is 8.e5 -- although I know
nothing about the theory of this position, this strikes me as
questionable. Why make it obvious for him how to develop his knight? Why
weaken the f5 and d5 squares until you have to? This makes your center
much easier to attack. He may elect to develop the knight to h6 anyway,
but in that case why give him the tasty f5 square?

Also, if you're going to play Qe2, why later play Bc2? Compare his f5
knight to your e3 bishop. Which is the better piece? If you look at your
position at move 19 or so-- your bishop is STILL a horrible piece, doing
nothing, while his knight is quite powerful, dominating a lot of key
central squares. The center is still relatively closed (although that
could change) but it seems to me that you're perfectly happy with 11.0-0
(or even 11.g4, daring him to take the bishop)! Nxe3.

This might well be the move that costs you the initiative. Another case
of you reacting to a threat you could probably ignore.

I can't swear any of this is correct, but it should give you some stuff
to think about.
  #3   Report Post  
Old April 17th 04, 11:27 PM
Socialista
 
Posts: n/a
Default Please some suggestion for save the game! :)

Hi Ron,

Now im thinking 8.e5 was no necessary, and was my first mistake,
probably 11.Bd2 was bad too, but i was thinking "how can i attack the
king without the black squares bishop", i am gonna check all your
suggestions.

Many thanks,
Jorge
  #5   Report Post  
Old April 19th 04, 02:24 PM
sathyashrayan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Please some suggestion for save the game! :)

(Socialista) wrote in message . com...
Hi!

I lost this game at IECG, but the worse part is what i dont know wich
was my mistakes, any suggestion could be very welcomed.

Thanks,
Jorge


Two things i dont understand. First is the title which you have given
in the subject. And the second one
is the reason for the early resign.


[Event "CP.2001.S.00004"]
[Site "IECG"]
[Date "2003.10.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Quinones, Jorge"]
[Black "Braun, Ingram H"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B06"]
[WhiteElo "1800"]
[BlackElo "2240"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 a6 5. f4 b5 6. Bd3 Bb7 7. Nf3 Nd7
8. e5 Nh6 9. Qe2

9.Qe2 is a interesting move and out of book. By that move
it aims the black king directly.

b4 10. Ne4 Nf5 11. Bd2


11.Bd2 !?. Maintaining the pawn chain and the center. But Could some
one try about 11.Bf2.


c5 12. c3 O-O 13. O-O
cxd4


What about 13. ... Qb6 with out exchanging the pawns on the
center?

14. cxd4 Qb6 15. Qf2 Rac8 16. Rac1 Bd5 17. a4


Normal is 17.a3. If 13.a3 bxa3 14.bxa3 Qb3.

a5 18. h3 Rfd8 19. g4
Rxc1 20. Bxc1


Is not it to have a rook on c1-c8 line by 20.Rxc1

dxe5 21. dxe5 Qb7 22. Re1 Nh6 23. Nd4 f5 24. exf6 Nxf6
25. Nxf6+ Bxf6 26. f5 g5 27. Be3


I think that you have closed the e file. Better is 27.Bb5 with the
idea of Ne6 and Xchanging the
light square B of black and light square weekness.

Nf7 28.Rd1 Ne5 29. Be2 Bc4 30. Rd2
Bxe2 31. Qxe2 h5


This game is very nice and i am going to take another look at it.


  #6   Report Post  
Old April 19th 04, 10:45 PM
Mike Ogush
 
Posts: n/a
Default Please some suggestion for save the game! :)

On 16 Apr 2004 23:03:54 -0700, (Socialista)
wrote:

Hi!

I lost this game at IECG, but the worse part is what i dont know wich
was my mistakes, any suggestion could be very welcomed.

Thanks,
Jorge

[Event "CP.2001.S.00004"]
[Site "IECG"]
[Date "2003.10.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Quinones, Jorge"]
[Black "Braun, Ingram H"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B06"]
[WhiteElo "1800"]
[BlackElo "2240"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 a6 5. f4


More usual is 5.Qd2 a la the 150 attack in the Pirc. After the
expected 5...b5 White can play 6.a4 b4 7.Nd1 a5 8.Ne2 Nd7 9.O-O
followed by 10.c3 when Black pressure from the g7 bishop has been
largelgy neutralized and White can start preparing for a kingside
attack. Other choices for White a 1) play f3 and g4 with Nge2
throuwn in and if Black ever plays b4 retreat the knight to d1 and
play c3 to neutralize the g7 bishop, or 2) Play Bd3 earlier so tthat
Nge2 does not block the bishop, e.g. 6.Bd3 Bb7 7.O-O-O Nd7 8.f4 with
mutual attacks on castled positions on opposite sides of the board.

b5 6. Bd3


An intersting idea is 6.Be2 and then if 6...Bb7 7.Bf3

Bb7 7. Nf3 Nd7
8. e5


Perhaps better is 8.O-O and only after 8...Ngf6 then 9.e5. If black
plays 8...Nh6 as in the game then 9.a4 b4 10.Ne2 Ng4 11.Bd2 following
up with 12.c3 and then attacking kingside.
Nh6 9. Qe2 b4 10. Ne4 Nf5 11. Bd2 c5


Here I think White missed an opportunity for a small advantage with
12.exd6. Black cannot play 12...exd6 due to 13.Nxd6+ winning and
12...c4 13.Bxc4 Bxe4 14.Qxe4 Nxd6 15.Qe2 Nxc4 16.Qxc4 loses a pawn
with insufficient compensation.
Balck can take White's pawn at d4 to remain equal materially, but I
believe White ends up with a slight advantage:
a) 12....Bxd4 13.O-O-O O-O 14.Nxd4 Nxd4 15.exd6 Nxd6 16.Bd5 Nc4 +/=
b) 12...cxd4 13.Bxb4 Qb6 14.Ba3 e6 15.O-O Rc8 16.Rf2 Bxe4 17.Bxe4

12. c3 O-O 13. O-O


Better is 13.dxc5 bxc3 (13...d5 14.Neg5 Nxc5 15.Bxf5 gxf5 16.cxb4 Ne4
17.Nd4 and we reach a similar position to that after 13....bxc3 only
in this one White is up a pawn.) 14.Bxc3 d5 15.Neg5 Nxc5 16.Bxf5 gxf5
17.Nd4 Here Black is going to be able to post a knight at e4 where it
will be very hard to drive away, but White posted his own knight at d4
where it is also very hard to drive away. I think White has good
changes to drum up a king side attack via h3, g4, (possibly with
Ng5-f3-h2) and Black does not have much counterplay.

cxd4
14. cxd4 Qb6 15. Qf2 Rac8 16. Rac1 Bd5 17. a4


Some what better is 17.a3 getting the a-pawn off white squares. If
17....bxa3 18.Bxa3 Qb3 19.Nc3 Bxf3 20.Bxf5 Bc6 21.Bd3 and White may be
a bit better.

a5 18. h3 Rfd8 19. g4
Rxc1 20. Bxc1 dxe5 21. dxe5 Qb7 22. Re1 Nh6 23. Nd4 f5 24. exf6 Nxf6
25. Nxf6+ Bxf6 26. f5


White should be thinking about how to draw, his queen side pawns are
vulnerable. Both of Black's bishops are better than White's. White's
knight is better than Black's but he can reposition it via Nf7. I
think that the rooks and queen's are about even in value.

By playing 26.g5 White forces the excgange of the bishop at f6, e.g.
26.f5 Bxd4 27.Qxd4 Nf7 28.Qc5 {threatening both e7 and a5} Qd7White
can equalize via 29.f5 gxf5 30.Qxe7 Qxe7 31.Rxe7 Bb3 32.Be2 Bxa4
33.Ra7 Rd5 34.Bf3 Re5 (34...Rd3 35.Be2 Rd5= (not 35...Rxh3 36.Bc4 and
White may have some advatage) ) 35.Kf2 and White's two bishops
combined with Black's open king side are compensation for the pawn
deficit.

After 26.f5 I am not sure of White is lost, but I couldn't find a way
to prevent Black from getting an advantage. Black's king is
completely safe, White's king has not pawn cover at all, and White's
queenisde pawns are still weak.

g5 27. Be3 Nf7 28.Rd1 Ne5 29. Be2 Bc4 30. Rd2
Bxe2 31. Qxe2 h5


  #7   Report Post  
Old April 23rd 04, 05:44 AM
Socialista
 
Posts: n/a
Default Please some suggestion for save the game! :)

Hi Mike many thanks for your suggestions, i am gonna check on the
weekend

A friend sent me this game, 8.e5 receive !?:

(2144881) Ye Jiangchuan (2677) - Bacrot,Etienne (2653) [B06]
EUR-ASIA m 30' Batumi (4), 17.09.2001
[Gofshtein,L]
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.f4 b5 6.Nf3 6.Be2 is not
dangerous for Black as it has been shown in the game mentioned under:
[6.Be2!? b4! 7.Nb1 Bb7 8.Bf3 Nf6 9.Qd3 (9.e5 Nd5„) 9...Nbd7
10.Nd2 0–0 11.c4 bxc3 12.bxc3 c5 13.Ne2 cxd4 14.cxd4 e5ƒ
Galkin-Ponomariov,2000] 6...Nd7 7.Bd3 [7.e5!? Bb7 8.Qe2!? (8.Bd3 c5
9.Be4˛) 8...b4 9.Nb1 e6 (9...c5 10.c3) 10.Nbd2 Ne7 11.Bf2 Nd5
12.g3 0–0 13.Ne4 Qb8„ 0–1 Skripchenko,A-Gorbatow,A
1994; 7.a3 Bb7 8.Rb1 (8.d5 Ngf6 9.Nd4 0–0 10.Bd3 Qe8 11.f5 Ne5
12.Qe2 c5 13.dxc6 Nxc6„ ˝–˝ Kruglov,V-Gorbatow,A
1995) 8...Ngf6 9.e5 Nd5 10.Nxd5 Bxd5 11.Be2 0–0 12.0–0 Qc8
13.Rf2 Qb7„ 0–1 Eckert,E-Polzin, 1995; 7.d5!? This attempt
to occupy c6 point gives Black good counterplay. 7...Ngf6 (7...e5!?)
8.Nd4 0–0!? (8...Bb7!? 9.Nc6 Bxc6 10.dxc6 Nb8) 9.e5 dxe5 10.Nc6
Qe8 11.fxe5 b4! 12.Nxb4 (12.Na4 Nxe5; 12.Ne2 Ng4) 12...Nxe5„
˝–˝ Klovans,J-Thiede, 1997; 7.a4 This move is too
slow: 7...b4 8.Nb1 Ngf6 9.Nbd2 Bb7 10.Bd3 0–0 11.h3 c5 12.c3
bxc3 13.bxc3 Qa5 0–1 Zude,A-Thiede,L/Germany 1997/GER-chT (35)]
7...Bb7 Another move leads to unclear position after: [7...c5 8.e5!?
Bb7 (8...cxd4 9.Bxd4 dxe5 (9...Bb7) 10.fxe5 f5 (10...Bb7 11.e6+-)
11.Qe2 Bb7 (11...b4 12.Nd5 Qa5 13.Bc4 Bb7 14.Rd1 Bxd5 15.Bxd5 Qxd5
16.e6) 12.e6ƒ) 9.Be4 Bxe4 10.Nxe4 Nh6 11.dxc5 Ng4 12.Qe2
dxe5„ 1–0 Lalic,B-Polzin, 1998; 7...b4] 8.e5!? White
shuts up black dark-square bishop, but it opens light-square
bishop,and clears f5 point for the black knight . Immediate 8.a4
deserves attention: [8.a4!? b4 9.Ne2 Ngf6 10.Ng3 0–0 (10...c5
11.c3 h5 12.e5 Ng4 13.Bd2 (13.Qe2 Nxe3 14.Qxe3 bxc3 15.bxc3 cxd4
16.cxd4 Bxf3 17.gxf3) ) 11.f5 c5 12.c3 bxc3 13.bxc3 cxd4 14.cxd4 Qb6
15.a5 1–0 Hector,J-Polzin,R1996; 8.Qd2 c5 9.dxc5 Nxc5 10.Bxc5
dxc5 11.e5 Qc7 12.Qe3 Nh6„ 0–1 Gershon,A-Morozevich,A
1997] 8...Nh6 This move takes f5 point under control; [8...e6 9.Ne4
Qb8 10.0–0 0–1 Mende,A-Polzin,R 1993; 8...c5 9.Be4 Bxe4
10.Nxe4] 9.Be4 [9.a4 b4 10.Ne4 Nf5 11.Bf2 0–0„] 9...Qc8
10.Ng5 10.Qd3 was more natural:
[10.Qd3!?] 10...b4 11.Qf3 [11.Bxb7 Qxb7 12.Nce4 Nf5„] 11...Rb8
[11...Bxe4 12.Ncxe4˛] 12.Na4 Good alternative12.Bb7 keeps some
advantage. [12.Bxb7 Rxb7 (12...Qxb7 13.Nce4˛) 13.Ne2˛]
12...0–0 13.0–0–0 13.0–0 looks more logical,
trying to keep the center by c3 after c5; [13.0–0!?] 13...Bxe4
14.Qxe4 Qb7?! After this wrong move White can reach the advantage;Of
course. much better was 14...Nf5 with sufficient counterplay.
[14...Nf5 15.Bf2 c5 16.dxc5 dxe5„] 15.Qxb7 Rxb7 16.h3?! This
indecisive move loses all white's advantage. [16.e6 fxe6 17.Nxe6 Rf5
18.d5] 16...Nf5 17.Bf2 Bh6= 18.g3 [18.h4!?] 18...Ng7 [18...Bxg5!?
19.fxg5 dxe5 20.dxe5 Nxe5 21.Nc5 Rb5 22.g4 Nd6 23.Nxa6 Rc8„]
19.h4 f6 20.exf6 White could complicate position by e6, which is
leading to unnusual position. [20.e6!? fxg5 21.hxg5 Bxg5 22.exd7 Bf6
23.g4] 20...Nxf6 21.Rhe1 Bxg5 Black changes the strong White's
knight,and occupies good squares for their knights. 22.hxg5 Ng4
23.Bg1 Nf5 24.Rd3 Kf7 25.Kd1 h6 Black changes his weaknes,and opens
h-file 26.gxh6 Nfxh6= 27.Ke2 Nf6 28.Kf3 White improves position of his
king. 28...Nd5 29.b3 White prepares c4-continuation. 29...Rh8 30.c4
Nf6 Probably,30...bc was worse;It destroys white's pawn
structure;White pieces become activer in this case. [30...bxc3?!
31.Nxc3 Nb4 32.Rd2 Nf5 33.a3 Nc6 34.b4] 31.Rdd1 Nf5 32.Bf2 Rbb8
33.Rh1 Nh6 Black prevents eventual g3-g4. 34.Nb2 White improves his
knight,transfering his from bad position a4 to the central square-d3.
34...Nhg4 35.Nd3 a5 36.d5 Nh2+ 37.Kg2 Nhg4 38.Bd4 Rh5?! 38.e6 was
better getting rid of e7-weakness. In addition,White creates new
weakness- pawn h5 by this; [38...e6!? 39.dxe6+ Kxe6=] 39.Rxh5 gxh5
40.Rh1 Rg8 41.Kf3 Kg6 42.Re1 [42.a3 bxa3 43.Ra1 Kf5 44.Rxa3
Ne4„] 42...Re8 43.Bxf6 Nxf6 44.Nf2 Two weakneses-e7 and h5 and
advantage in space give white clear advantage. 44...Kf7 45.Nh3 Nh7
Black prevents monouevre of white knight to g5.This is extremely
difficult for White to achieve something real. 46.Re6? c6!?
47.Ke4?! [47.f5!? cxd5 48.Rh6 Nf6 49.Ng5+ Kg7 50.Rg6+=] 47...cxd5+
48.cxd5 Rc8„ Active rook gives Black the iniative. 49.Kf5? This
move is decisive mistake;It was not too late was to reach equal
position by: [49.Ng5+!? Nxg5+ 50.fxg5 Rc3 51.g6+ Kf8 52.g7+ Kg8
53.Rxe7 Rxg3=] 49...Rc5 50.Rh6 [50.Ng5+ Nxg5 51.Kxg5 Rxd5+ 52.f5 Rd3
53.Kf4 Rd2–+] 50...e6+–+ 51.Ke4 Nf6+ 52.Kf3 Kg7 53.Rxf6
Kxf6 54.dxe6 Kxe6 55.Nf2 Rc1 56.Ne4 Ra1 57.Ng5+ Ke7 58.Ke4 Rxa2 59.Kf3
Rb2 0–1

Saludos,
Jorge
  #8   Report Post  
Old April 25th 04, 02:46 PM
Franade
 
Posts: n/a
Default Please some suggestion for save the game! :)


"Socialista" a crit:

Now im thinking 8.e5 was no necessary, and was my first mistake,


You're right: 8. e5 has weakened the f5 square and maked the both black
bishops stronger...

Better is: 8.Qd2 c5 9.0-0 c4 10.Be2 Ngf6 11.e5 Ng4 12.e6! fxe6 13.Ng5 Nf8
15.Bg4 Qb6 16.Rad1 e5 17.fxe5 dxe5 18.Qf2 Qf6 19.Bf3 Bxf3 20.dxe5 Qf5
21.Qxf3 Qxf3 22.Nxf3 +/-


Franade.


  #9   Report Post  
Old April 25th 04, 03:01 PM
Franade
 
Posts: n/a
Default Please some suggestion for save the game! :)


"Franade" a crit:

Better is: 8.Qd2 c5 9.0-0 c4 10.Be2 Ngf6 11.e5 Ng4 12.e6! fxe6 13.Ng5


Sorry: 13...Nxe3 14.Qxe3 Nf8 and then:

15.Bg4 Qb6 16.Rad1 e5 17.fxe5 dxe5 18.Qf2 Qf6 19.Bf3 Bxf3 20.dxe5 Qf5
21.Qxf3 Qxf3 22.Nxf3 +/-



Franade.


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