Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old June 4th 04, 04:32 PM
Toni Lassila
 
Posts: n/a
Default need help in beating Sicilian

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 09:12:42 -0600, Joe Helmick
wrote:

I got CRUSHED the other day by a player some 150 points below me... I
got totally bushwhacked by his defense and am wondering if a few of
you could advise me how to crack this defense while playing White.

In this defense, Black's first moves are c5, a6, and Nc6.

Here's the complete PGN:

[Event "ICC 20 12"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.06.03"]
[ICCResult "White resigns"]
[Opening "Sicilian: closed"]
[ECO "B23"]
[NIC "SI.44"]
[Time "18:27:08"]
[TimeControl "1200+12"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 a6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Ng5 e6


6. d4?

What was your reasoning for sacking the pawn?

6...cxd4 7. Ne2 Bc5 8. c3


8...e5?? Nxf7

9. Nf3 O-O 10. Bg5 Be7 11. cxd4 Nxe4


12. O-O?? Nxg5

12...Bxg5 13. Nxg5 Qxg5
14.Qb3 Nd2 15. Bxf7+ Kh8 16. Qg3 Qf5 17. Rfd1 Qc2 18. Bb3 Qxb2
19. Nc3 Nxd4 20. Na4 Ne2+ 21. Kh1 Nxg3+ 22. hxg3 Rxf2 23. Nxb2 d5
24. Bxd5 Bg4 25. Re1 Raf8 26. Rxe5 Rf1+


27. Kh2??

What to do? I want to get back after this guy and give him a
thrashing. I want my rating points back!


I'd say forget worrying about the Sicilian and concentrate on making
less glaring blunders. Tactics and endgames first, then openings.

--
King's Gambit - http://kingsgambit.blogspot.com
Chess problems, tactics, analysis and more.
  #2   Report Post  
Old June 4th 04, 05:33 PM
vindaloo_man[N_O_S_P_A_M]
 
Posts: n/a
Default need help in beating Sicilian

I am a quite weak player myself (so I will not add analysys for the
moment... because I am a bit short of time and also because Toni already
gave you some hint), but IMHO you should follow Toni advice:

Tactics and (the basics) endings.
For the openings, just follow the common sense (or try this page

http://www.exeter.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/O...openrules.html

if "common sense" is not detailed enough for you ;-) ).
Theory will follow in a second (third) moment

I try to explain why I feel Toni is right (I hope my explanation makes
sense ;-) )

Who is the people that know perfectly openings and can
do what they read (apply strategy ideas behind openings lines and so
on)? People with rating 1900 (roughly... I give numbers just to give
an idea)

In this moment can you (can I) hope to win against that kind of players?
No, if they do not fall asleep on the board ... my current target is
something like score more than 50% with people around 1400-1500 FICS (I
am 1400 FICS standard, 1428 Italian ELO)... I don't know yours, but
change the figures accordingly.
At my level who wins? IMHO, people that see the tactics a move before,
people that blunders less, people that can play endings better.
What can improve those factors? Study of tactics and basic endings

Later (not so far in time, I think) you will feel the need to build your
own repertoire of openings...

These are my 2 cents... I hope they helps ;-)
Ciao
Alessandro

ps: I suggest (always IMHO) to use longer time controls, they give you
time to think the moves and so to improve
  #3   Report Post  
Old June 4th 04, 05:40 PM
Toni Lassila
 
Posts: n/a
Default need help in beating Sicilian

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 10:10:06 -0600, Joe Helmick
wrote:

8...e5?? Nxf7


Yikes... yes, I see now the knight fork... I was actually thinking
about that earlier on, but got derailed when black played e6, blocking
my bishop... I didn't notice that e5 made that a good possibility
again.


After each move of your opponents, you must 1) find which new threats
he has 2) which squares did he just leave undefended. 1) is what you
do to not lose, 2) is what you do to win.

27. Kh2??

Hmm, would 27. Rxf1 have been better? Black would then play 27.
...Rxf1+, correct? I still would have ended up having to play Kh2.
Is there something I'm missing?


Yes. After 27. Kh2 Rxa1 you're missing a rook.

Well, clearly, I need to avoid blunders -- I'm very new to this game.
But the fact is that often I don't even *get* to an endgame, because I
screw up the opening and end up in a mess.


You can play perfectly good chess without memorizing a single opening
by knowing the principles of playing an opening. You will rarely get
to a non-losing endgame unless you work on your calculation and
tactical eye, first.

--
King's Gambit - http://kingsgambit.blogspot.com
Chess problems, tactics, analysis and more.
  #4   Report Post  
Old June 4th 04, 06:10 PM
vindaloo_man[N_O_S_P_A_M]
 
Posts: n/a
Default need help in beating Sicilian

Joe Helmick wrote:
For the openings, just follow the common sense (or try this page

http://www.exeter.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/O...openrules.html



This is a great reference. Thank you!


All the site is very interesting, it's one of my favs


True, without doubt. But would you not agree at all that knowing even
three or four opening moves can help somewhat? For example, after
this loss, I determined the ECO of the opening. Looking it up, I then
searched for games where White wins against his defense.

What I found was that in many cases, White played f4 early, followed
by Nf3.

This move alone seems to make a difference, because of the geometry of
Black's opening moves. So, I think that just knowing that simple
difference will help me when I see such a defense again.


Yes, knowing that can make some difference expecially in blitz games,
where save time is fundamental (that's why I suggest, as I am trying to
do myself) to play also long time matches ( 15minutes each player),
where you have more time to think and to improve.
After I took my first tourney OTB (2 hours per player games) my standard
rating in Fics passed from around 1300 to around 1400... it's not a
proof, but a sign...
Knowing 3 or 4 moves can help, but after that? if you play those moves
because they are written on the book you won't know what to do at move 5...



am 1400 FICS standard, 1428 Italian ELO)... I don't know yours, but
change the figures accordingly.


At my level, I'll take any win I can get!


That's true at any level I think ;-)

Certainly, same for me. But, I also believe that losing a piece in
the first 10 moves because of an inappropriate opening sequence means
almost certain failure. I'm studying tactics, and endgames as well,
but it's very disturbing to lose a piece or end up in a terrible
position because I didn't know how to open correctly. So I think a
little study of openings can help.


IHMO if after 10 moves you are 1 piece under is because you didn't see a
tactic situation or because you leave a piece undefended (at least those
were the reasons when it happened to me... and when it happens nowoadays
sigh... ;-) )

Alessandro
  #5   Report Post  
Old June 5th 04, 11:22 AM
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default need help in beating Sicilian

Joe Helmick wrote:
Certainly, same for me. But, I also believe that losing a piece in
the first 10 moves because of an inappropriate opening sequence means
almost certain failure.


There's no point learning opening sequences while you're still at the
stage of blundering away pieces. There were three times in the opening
when you didn't notice that one of your men was attacked more times than
it was defended (moves 6, 12 and 14), for example. If you're going to
throw away material as soon as you come out of your opening book and start
to make your own moves, it doesn't matter whether you know the opening to
five moves or fifty -- you'll still lose. You don't lose pieces because
you don't know openings but you lose pieces because you don't notice
they're under attack or that there's a simple tactic (such as a knight
fork) that will win them.

Practise your board awareness and tactics first. When you start to get
better at them (and you will, don't worry!) then it's worthwhile looking
at specific opening lines. What sort of a setup should you have aimed for
against Black's opening in the game you showed? Well, one that develops
your pieces and castles. Black's first three moves seem to be hinting at
queenside play, so you might want to aim for the sort of closed Sicilian
setup that has pawns on d3, e4, f4 and g3 and then to go for a kingside
attack. But that can be dangerous as it leaves your own king a little
open.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Simple Umbrella (TM): it's like an
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ umbrella but it has no moving parts!


  #6   Report Post  
Old June 7th 04, 12:00 PM
Remco Gerlich
 
Posts: n/a
Default need help in beating Sicilian

On 2004-06-04, Joe Helmick wrote:
True, without doubt. But would you not agree at all that knowing even
three or four opening moves can help somewhat? For example, after
this loss, I determined the ECO of the opening. Looking it up, I then
searched for games where White wins against his defense.

What I found was that in many cases, White played f4 early, followed
by Nf3.

This move alone seems to make a difference, because of the geometry of
Black's opening moves. So, I think that just knowing that simple
difference will help me when I see such a defense again.


I think that is not so much a matter of "learning openings", it's just
that you should expose yourself to lots and lots of chess games played
by good players, to get a feeling for what sort of moves are normal,
what the possibilities are. So looking this up introduced you to an
idea. That's good, now look up another random thousand games and get
introduced to theirs :-). I think you've just not seen enough high
level chess games.

Get a database, play through loads of games, of many openings. Don't
limit yourself!! Expose yourself to all the possibilities, start
recognizing patterns in a wide range of positions.

The absolute worst thing you can do to your chess right now is
restrict yourself to a small set of openings so that you play the same
way in every game. If you do that, there is a big risk you'll stop
thinking, and start playing the moves "you always play in this sort of
position". When that happens, your chess improvement is dead.

You must allow yourself to *concentrate and think for yourself, all
the time*. But with subconscious pattern recognition, so you get a
feeling for which moves are normal and solid and which aren't, even
though you've never seen the position before.

--
Remco Gerlich
  #7   Report Post  
Old July 25th 05, 10:32 PM
mateuin1
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What's the big deal? 24...Qd4 and game over. Both players made huge
blunders in this game...

-mateuin1

Joe Helmick wrote in
:

I got CRUSHED the other day by a player some 150 points below me... I
got totally bushwhacked by his defense and am wondering if a few of
you could advise me how to crack this defense while playing White.

In this defense, Black's first moves are c5, a6, and Nc6.

Here's the complete PGN:

[Event "ICC 20 12"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2004.06.03"]
[ICCResult "White resigns"]
[Opening "Sicilian: closed"]
[ECO "B23"]
[NIC "SI.44"]
[Time "18:27:08"]
[TimeControl "1200+12"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 a6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Ng5 e6
6. d4 cxd4 7. Ne2 Bc5 8. c3 e5 9. Nf3 O-O 10. Bg5 Be7
11. cxd4 Nxe4 12. O-O Bxg5 13. Nxg5 Qxg5 14.Qb3 Nd2 15. Bxf7+ Kh8
16. Qg3 Qf5 17. Rfd1 Qc2 18. Bb3 Qxb2 19. Nc3 Nxd4 20. Na4 Ne2+
21. Kh1 Nxg3+ 22. hxg3 Rxf2 23. Nxb2 d5 24. Bxd5 Bg4 25. Re1 Raf8
26. Rxe5 Rf1+ 27. Kh2 Rxa1 28. Nc4 Nf1+ 29. Kg1 Ne3+ 30. Kh2 Nd1
31. Nd6 h6 32. Nf7+ Kh7 33. Be4+ Kg8 34. Re7 Rxf7 35. Bd5 Ne3
36. Bb3 Be6 {White resigns} 0-1

Boy, did that game ever suck! After this crushing loss, I looked
online for Sicilian games where White wins (at www.chessgames.com),
but in an hour or so of searching, could not find one where black
plays a6 so early. It seems like many of the games had White playing
Bb5 early on, but a6 foils such a move completely, as there is no
logic in playing Bb5 if Black has not yet played Nc6. Correct?

What to do? I want to get back after this guy and give him a
thrashing. I want my rating points back!

Joe


  #8   Report Post  
Old July 29th 05, 12:12 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

There was some discussion of openings and that weaker players should
not study them. I agree that weaker players should not study them as
much as they do, but it can be quite useful to develop experience in a
particular opening and UNDERSTAND!!!! the moves you play. When I
started playing I was a little over 1000 USCF 3 years ago, the only
opening I've maintained consistantly since then is the french defense
and I can tell you than now I am over 2000 USCF and it is paying
dividends, I have a remarkable score in the french and I do not have to
work so hard to figure out what moves make sense in similar positions
as I have many games of experience in these lines. The plans are also
familiar and the TACTICS!!!!! have some thematic recurrence. However,
this is quite possibly the wrong opening to begin with, I would suggest
begginers study openings that yield positions with tactics and clear
ideas (open game, dragon sicilian, sharp QGA lines or king's indian
defense. As with the open game, it is playable for a win and you don't
have to worry about it being refuted and having to abandon it if you
ever become a strong master, this is a nice factor. There is a famous
saying "When you study the King's Indian, you study chess". Regardless
of how you feel about the theory in this opening, you can learn the
theory simply by learning tactics and positional chess. As for the
theory of tactics and endgames, I promise you at 1400, still everything
matters, however, the game will often be decided by a tactic (however,
the tactic will often appear because of poor positional play or placing
pieces inaccurately during the opening).

A word of advice: don't become a gambit whore who plays some attacking
opening perfectly acceptable for a class C player or maybe even class B
player and then refuses to abandon it due to some undeserved
dedication. Quite possibly the blackmar-diemer isn't refuted, but
almost any master will tell you he doesn't care because he KNOWS the
queen's gambit isn't. Also, players who play gambit openings so they
can get purely tactical positions often suffer when the game simplifies
into a rich, but quiet position. I've seen 2200's collapse against A
players in positions where they should be better because they failed to
develop all of their phases of the game. However, with that said,
don't hesistate to play gambits, just pick the right ones (I suggest
one's without cult followings that will tell you the main lines win by
force and then resort to looking at sidelines of sidelines). Ideas:
Marshall Gambit (any of them :-) ), Evans Gambit, Benko Gambit
(although more positional than attacking), and if you're particularly
wild, king's gambit. While you shouldn't try to play only openings
that GMs play, if a respectable GM has NEVER played it, you shouldn't
either once you're a reasonable player.

  #10   Report Post  
Old July 29th 05, 05:01 AM
[email protected]
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Huh? Was that a joke? How about Adams, Short, Morozevich, and
Kasparov to name a few TOP grandmasters who have played the Evans. I
was giving examples of gambits that ARE worth playing, and that others
like the blackmar-diemer or the budapest are not.

Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Chess"

 

Copyright © 2017