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Old June 14th 04, 11:34 AM
Krise
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sicilian Sveshnikov

Hello!

Does anyone know of any (extensive) analysis of the following Sveshnikov
variation?


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 *

Is 8...Nb8 the best move for black, by the way?

Thanks!




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Old June 14th 04, 10:14 PM
Geoffrey Caveney
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sicilian Sveshnikov

(Miriling) wrote in message ...
Subject: Sicilian Sveshnikov


On 14 June 2004 "Krise"
wrote in
Message-id:

Hello!

Does anyone know of any (extensive) analysis of the following Sveshnikov
variation?


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 *


It just so happens I had to face this line a week ago in an Online
Chess League (OCL) game against FM Marcel Milat. I had never seen or
heard of the line before, but now of course I know a bit about it.

Is 8...Nb8 the best move for black, by the way?

It's hard to say whether 8...Nb8 is the "best move" for Black, but a good
alternative is 8...Ne7 with the idea of 9...Nf5, 10...Be7 and 11...0-0 and I
think Black has a viable position.


8...Nb8 seems to be the preference of the top-level Sveshnikov players
these days. Not that 8...Ne7 isn't playable, of course, but you do
have to watch out for the trap 8...Ne7 9.c4 a6? 10.Qa4! because with
the N on e7 blocking the bishop, Black can't play 10...Bd7 11.Nxd6#.

The 9.Qf3 line is a very new idea that wasn't even mentioned in
Yakovich's very thorough 2002 book on the Sveshnikov. Apparently there
was a New In Chess article about it. The idea is to play Qa3 and
Bd2-Bb4 to load up quickly on d6. Seeing this coming after 9...a6
10.Qa3, in my game I decided to break the a-file pin with 10...b6 and
11...Bb7 before White could get in Bb4.

But after the game my opponent showed me that in fact 10...Be7 is
playable and best. He intended to throw in 11.Bg5!? but just 11...f6
is a fine reply to that, after which White returns to his original
plan with 12.Bd2. Now Black can actually ignore the threat to d6 and
just play 12...O-O. White has two main ways to proceed:

After 13.Bb4, Black sacs the exchange for good compensation with
13...axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2 Qb6 16.Be3. In most games Black has
played 16...Qa5+ here, but I kind of like 16...Qc7, which was played
in the earliest game I found in this line (perhaps without the 11.Bg5
f6 moves). The idea of the Qb6-Qc7 maneuver is that putting the B on
e3 blocks the white queen's retreat route of Qa7-Qe3! Black will gain
time threatening to hit the bishop with ...f5 and ...f4.

The other line for White is 13.Ba5 b6 14.Bb4. Now the white queen will
have an escape route from a8 via c6. But as my opponent showed me,
Black has the elegantly effective move 14...Qd7!! here. Now d6 is safe
because both 15.Bxd6 axb5 and 15.Nxd6 a5! are good for Black.

It shouldn't be surprising that such an artificial plan for White
turns out to be ineffective against best play. And in fact, even after
the inferior 10...b6 that I played, and then another poor move
14...Qc7, I still got a fine middlegame position and would have had
excellent winning chances if I had chosen the correct plan at moves
22-23.

Here is my game against Milat in PGN, with light notes:

[Event "FICS rated standard game"]
[Site "FICS, Fremont, California USA"]
[Date "2004.06.06"]
[Time "19:05:52"]
[Round "-"]
[White "milecker"]
[Black "igrok"]
[WhiteElo "2232"]
[BlackElo "2081"]
[TimeControl "3600+15"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nge2 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7.
Nd5 Nxd5 8. exd5 Nb8 9. Qf3 a6 10. Qa3 b6

{After the game my opponent showed me that} (Be7 {is fine for Black:}
11. Bg5 {!?} f6 12. Bd2 O-O {!} 13. Bb4 (13. Ba5 b6 14. Bb4 Qd7 {!} )
axb5 14. Qxa8 Na6 15. Bd2 Qb6 16. Be3 Qc7)

11. c4 Bb7 12. Nc3 Be7 13. Be3 Nd7 14. Qb3 Qc7

{Too passive. I was worried about Na4 attacking b6, and the idea of}
(Qc7 {was actually} 15. Na4 Bd8) {but in fact I can play} (f5 {!} 15.
Na4 Rb8 16. Bxb6 (16. Nxb6 Ba8) Nxb6 17. Qxb6 Qxb6 18. Nxb6 Bc6) {as a
strong master showed me after the game. My opponent thought} (Bg5
{might be good, but the master instantly played} 15. Ne4 {!} )

15. Be2 O-O 16. O-O f5 17. f3 Rae8 18. Rac1 Kh8 19. Qc2 Bc8 20. b4 Qd8
21. Qd2 Rf6 22. Kh1 Ref8

{I don't have a complete feel for the Sveshnikov yet, and here I am
mistakenly planning to exchange dark-squared bishops before attacking
instead of just playing} (f4) {to begin the attack.}

23. Na4 Rg6

(f4 {is even better here, since White's N is one move farther away
from the e4 square. After} 24. Bf2 Rh6 25. Rfd1 Bh4 26. Qe1 Rf5 {!
Black has an overwhelming attacking position. One very pretty line the
master found here is} 27. Bxh4 Rxh4 28. Qg1 Rfh5 29. c5 Qg5 {!} 30.
cxb6 Nc5 {!!} 31. bxc5 Qg3 {and White gets mated.} )

24. Rfd1 Bg5 25. Bxg5 Rxg5 26. c5 bxc5 27. bxc5 Nxc5 28. Nxc5 dxc5 29.
Rxc5 f4 30. d6 Bd7 31. Bxa6 Rh5 32. Qe1 Qf6 33. Bb5 Qh6 34. Qg1 Bxb5
35. Rxb5 g5 36. Rxe5 Rd8 37. d7 Qc6 38. Qd4 Kg8 39. Re7 Qh6 40. Qd5+
Kh8 41. Qe5+ Kg8 42. Re8+ Kf7 43. Qe7+ Kg6 44. Rd6+ {Black resigns}
1-0
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Old June 15th 04, 10:08 AM
Krise
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sicilian Sveshnikov


"Geoffrey Caveney" skrev i melding
om...
(Miriling) wrote in message

...
Subject: Sicilian Sveshnikov


On 14 June 2004 "Krise"
wrote in
Message-id:

Hello!

Does anyone know of any (extensive) analysis of the following

Sveshnikov
variation?


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5

8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 *


It just so happens I had to face this line a week ago in an Online
Chess League (OCL) game against FM Marcel Milat. I had never seen or
heard of the line before, but now of course I know a bit about it.

Is 8...Nb8 the best move for black, by the way?

It's hard to say whether 8...Nb8 is the "best move" for Black, but a

good
alternative is 8...Ne7 with the idea of 9...Nf5, 10...Be7 and 11...0-0

and I
think Black has a viable position.


8...Nb8 seems to be the preference of the top-level Sveshnikov players
these days. Not that 8...Ne7 isn't playable, of course, but you do
have to watch out for the trap 8...Ne7 9.c4 a6? 10.Qa4! because with
the N on e7 blocking the bishop, Black can't play 10...Bd7 11.Nxd6#.

The 9.Qf3 line is a very new idea that wasn't even mentioned in
Yakovich's very thorough 2002 book on the Sveshnikov. Apparently there
was a New In Chess article about it. The idea is to play Qa3 and
Bd2-Bb4 to load up quickly on d6. Seeing this coming after 9...a6
10.Qa3, in my game I decided to break the a-file pin with 10...b6 and
11...Bb7 before White could get in Bb4.

But after the game my opponent showed me that in fact 10...Be7 is
playable and best. He intended to throw in 11.Bg5!? but just 11...f6
is a fine reply to that, after which White returns to his original
plan with 12.Bd2. Now Black can actually ignore the threat to d6 and
just play 12...O-O. White has two main ways to proceed:

After 13.Bb4, Black sacs the exchange for good compensation with
13...axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2 Qb6 16.Be3. In most games Black has
played 16...Qa5+ here, but I kind of like 16...Qc7, which was played
in the earliest game I found in this line (perhaps without the 11.Bg5
f6 moves). The idea of the Qb6-Qc7 maneuver is that putting the B on
e3 blocks the white queen's retreat route of Qa7-Qe3! Black will gain
time threatening to hit the bishop with ...f5 and ...f4.

The other line for White is 13.Ba5 b6 14.Bb4. Now the white queen will
have an escape route from a8 via c6. But as my opponent showed me,
Black has the elegantly effective move 14...Qd7!! here. Now d6 is safe
because both 15.Bxd6 axb5 and 15.Nxd6 a5! are good for Black.

It shouldn't be surprising that such an artificial plan for White
turns out to be ineffective against best play. And in fact, even after
the inferior 10...b6 that I played, and then another poor move
14...Qc7, I still got a fine middlegame position and would have had
excellent winning chances if I had chosen the correct plan at moves
22-23.

Here is my game against Milat in PGN, with light notes:

[Event "FICS rated standard game"]
[Site "FICS, Fremont, California USA"]
[Date "2004.06.06"]
[Time "19:05:52"]
[Round "-"]
[White "milecker"]
[Black "igrok"]
[WhiteElo "2232"]
[BlackElo "2081"]
[TimeControl "3600+15"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nge2 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7.
Nd5 Nxd5 8. exd5 Nb8 9. Qf3 a6 10. Qa3 b6

{After the game my opponent showed me that} (Be7 {is fine for Black:}
11. Bg5 {!?} f6 12. Bd2 O-O {!} 13. Bb4 (13. Ba5 b6 14. Bb4 Qd7 {!} )
axb5 14. Qxa8 Na6 15. Bd2 Qb6 16. Be3 Qc7)

11. c4 Bb7 12. Nc3 Be7 13. Be3 Nd7 14. Qb3 Qc7

{Too passive. I was worried about Na4 attacking b6, and the idea of}
(Qc7 {was actually} 15. Na4 Bd8) {but in fact I can play} (f5 {!} 15.
Na4 Rb8 16. Bxb6 (16. Nxb6 Ba8) Nxb6 17. Qxb6 Qxb6 18. Nxb6 Bc6) {as a
strong master showed me after the game. My opponent thought} (Bg5
{might be good, but the master instantly played} 15. Ne4 {!} )

15. Be2 O-O 16. O-O f5 17. f3 Rae8 18. Rac1 Kh8 19. Qc2 Bc8 20. b4 Qd8
21. Qd2 Rf6 22. Kh1 Ref8

{I don't have a complete feel for the Sveshnikov yet, and here I am
mistakenly planning to exchange dark-squared bishops before attacking
instead of just playing} (f4) {to begin the attack.}

23. Na4 Rg6

(f4 {is even better here, since White's N is one move farther away
from the e4 square. After} 24. Bf2 Rh6 25. Rfd1 Bh4 26. Qe1 Rf5 {!
Black has an overwhelming attacking position. One very pretty line the
master found here is} 27. Bxh4 Rxh4 28. Qg1 Rfh5 29. c5 Qg5 {!} 30.
cxb6 Nc5 {!!} 31. bxc5 Qg3 {and White gets mated.} )

24. Rfd1 Bg5 25. Bxg5 Rxg5 26. c5 bxc5 27. bxc5 Nxc5 28. Nxc5 dxc5 29.
Rxc5 f4 30. d6 Bd7 31. Bxa6 Rh5 32. Qe1 Qf6 33. Bb5 Qh6 34. Qg1 Bxb5
35. Rxb5 g5 36. Rxe5 Rd8 37. d7 Qc6 38. Qd4 Kg8 39. Re7 Qh6 40. Qd5+
Kh8 41. Qe5+ Kg8 42. Re8+ Kf7 43. Qe7+ Kg6 44. Rd6+ {Black resigns}
1-0


Thanks for your analysis. (I really liked 30...Nc5 in the variation above).

The exchange sacrifce look ok for black, but at the of the day is the
endgame. So the question is wether black has sufficient compensation or not
after
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2
Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3

White's queen looks a bit awkward on a8, but it doesn't seem like it is in
any danger. It can easily get out via a7. Any idea how Black should response
to 17.c3?

I have looked at the obvious 17... Be6 18.Qa7 Bxd5 19.Bxb5 Nc5 but this
doesn't seem very convincing.




An passant: Does this variation of the sveshnikov have a name?

Thanks!




  #5   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 01:11 AM
Peter Billam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sicilian Sveshnikov

On 14 June 2004 "Krise" wrote in
Message-id:
Does anyone know of any (extensive) analysis of the following
Sveshnikov variation?
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6
7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5 Nb8 9.Qf3


Hmmm, yes... (there is always the 2...e6 path)

"Geoffrey Caveney" skrev i melding
om...
The 9.Qf3 line is a very new idea that wasn't even mentioned in
Yakovich's very thorough 2002 book on the Sveshnikov. Apparently there
was a New In Chess article about it. The idea is to play Qa3 and
Bd2-Bb4 to load up quickly on d6. Seeing this coming after 9...a6
10.Qa3, in my game I decided to break the a-file pin with 10...b6 and
11...Bb7 before White could get in Bb4.
But after the game my opponent showed me that in fact 10...Be7 is
playable and best. He intended to throw in 11.Bg5!? but just 11...f6
is a fine reply to that, after which White returns to his original
plan with 12.Bd2. Now Black can actually ignore the threat to d6 and
just play 12...O-O. White has two main ways to proceed:
After 13.Bb4, Black sacs the exchange for good compensation with
13...axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2 Qb6 16.Be3. In most games Black has
played 16...Qa5+ here, but I kind of like 16...Qc7, which was played
in the earliest game I found in this line (perhaps without the 11.Bg5
f6 moves). The idea of the Qb6-Qc7 maneuver is that putting the B on
e3 blocks the white queen's retreat route of Qa7-Qe3! Black will gain
time threatening to hit the bishop with ...f5 and ...f4.


Krise replied:
White's queen looks a bit awkward on a8, but it doesn't
seem like it is in any danger. It can easily get out via a7.
Any idea how Black should responsd to 17.c3?
I have looked at the obvious 17... Be6 18.Qa7 Bxd5 19.Bxb5 Nc5
but this doesn't seem very convincing.


I agree... rather than 11..f6 Black can defend OK with

11... Bf5 12. Bxe7 Kxe7 13. Be2
(or 13. O-O-O Qb6 14. Rd2 Nd7 15. Nc3 Rhc8 16. Nd1 Bg6)
13... Qb6 14. c4
(or 14. O-O Nd7 15. Nc3 Bxc2 16. Rac1 Bf5 17. Na4 Qa5 18. Rfd1 Rhc8)
14. c4 Nd7 15. Nc3 a5 16. O-O
(or 16. b3 Qd4 17. Qc1 Qf4
or 16. Nb5 Qc5 17. Qf3 Qb4+ 18. Nc3 Qxb2)
16... Qc5 17. Qb3 Qb4 18. Qxb4 ab4

all of which looks balanced to me.

Geoffrey Caveney continued:
It shouldn't be surprising that such an artificial plan for White
turns out to be ineffective against best play. And in fact, even after
the inferior 10...b6 that I played, and then another poor move 14...Qc7,
I still got a fine middlegame position and would have had excellent
winning chances if I had chosen the correct plan at moves 22-23.


I'm not so sure 10..b6 11.c4 Bb7 is inferior; it disables White's
plan, it's a good square for the bishop, and Black continues freely
with Be7, Nd7 and f5 which is all very harmonious and thematic.

Interesting line :-)

Regards, Peter Billam

--

Peter Billam
www.pjb.com.au peter.billam at pjb.com.au
Original compositions, and arrangements of Bach, Schubert, Brahms...


  #6   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 01:33 AM
Geoffrey Caveney
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sicilian Sveshnikov

"Krise" wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Caveney" skrev i melding
om...
(Miriling) wrote in message

...
Subject: Sicilian Sveshnikov

On 14 June 2004 "Krise"
wrote in
Message-id:

Hello!

Does anyone know of any (extensive) analysis of the following

Sveshnikov
variation?


1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5

8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 *


It just so happens I had to face this line a week ago in an Online
Chess League (OCL) game against FM Marcel Milat. I had never seen or
heard of the line before, but now of course I know a bit about it.

Is 8...Nb8 the best move for black, by the way?

It's hard to say whether 8...Nb8 is the "best move" for Black, but a

good
alternative is 8...Ne7 with the idea of 9...Nf5, 10...Be7 and 11...0-0

and I
think Black has a viable position.


8...Nb8 seems to be the preference of the top-level Sveshnikov players
these days. Not that 8...Ne7 isn't playable, of course, but you do
have to watch out for the trap 8...Ne7 9.c4 a6? 10.Qa4! because with
the N on e7 blocking the bishop, Black can't play 10...Bd7 11.Nxd6#.

The 9.Qf3 line is a very new idea that wasn't even mentioned in
Yakovich's very thorough 2002 book on the Sveshnikov. Apparently there
was a New In Chess article about it. The idea is to play Qa3 and
Bd2-Bb4 to load up quickly on d6. Seeing this coming after 9...a6
10.Qa3, in my game I decided to break the a-file pin with 10...b6 and
11...Bb7 before White could get in Bb4.

But after the game my opponent showed me that in fact 10...Be7 is
playable and best. He intended to throw in 11.Bg5!? but just 11...f6
is a fine reply to that, after which White returns to his original
plan with 12.Bd2. Now Black can actually ignore the threat to d6 and
just play 12...O-O. White has two main ways to proceed:

After 13.Bb4, Black sacs the exchange for good compensation with
13...axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2 Qb6 16.Be3. In most games Black has
played 16...Qa5+ here, but I kind of like 16...Qc7, which was played
in the earliest game I found in this line (perhaps without the 11.Bg5
f6 moves). The idea of the Qb6-Qc7 maneuver is that putting the B on
e3 blocks the white queen's retreat route of Qa7-Qe3! Black will gain
time threatening to hit the bishop with ...f5 and ...f4.

The other line for White is 13.Ba5 b6 14.Bb4. Now the white queen will
have an escape route from a8 via c6. But as my opponent showed me,
Black has the elegantly effective move 14...Qd7!! here. Now d6 is safe
because both 15.Bxd6 axb5 and 15.Nxd6 a5! are good for Black.

It shouldn't be surprising that such an artificial plan for White
turns out to be ineffective against best play. And in fact, even after
the inferior 10...b6 that I played, and then another poor move
14...Qc7, I still got a fine middlegame position and would have had
excellent winning chances if I had chosen the correct plan at moves
22-23.

Here is my game against Milat in PGN, with light notes:

[Event "FICS rated standard game"]
[Site "FICS, Fremont, California USA"]
[Date "2004.06.06"]
[Time "19:05:52"]
[Round "-"]
[White "milecker"]
[Black "igrok"]
[WhiteElo "2232"]
[BlackElo "2081"]
[TimeControl "3600+15"]
[Mode "ICS"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nge2 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7.
Nd5 Nxd5 8. exd5 Nb8 9. Qf3 a6 10. Qa3 b6

{After the game my opponent showed me that} (Be7 {is fine for Black:}
11. Bg5 {!?} f6 12. Bd2 O-O {!} 13. Bb4 (13. Ba5 b6 14. Bb4 Qd7 {!} )
axb5 14. Qxa8 Na6 15. Bd2 Qb6 16. Be3 Qc7)

11. c4 Bb7 12. Nc3 Be7 13. Be3 Nd7 14. Qb3 Qc7

{Too passive. I was worried about Na4 attacking b6, and the idea of}
(Qc7 {was actually} 15. Na4 Bd8) {but in fact I can play} (f5 {!} 15.
Na4 Rb8 16. Bxb6 (16. Nxb6 Ba8) Nxb6 17. Qxb6 Qxb6 18. Nxb6 Bc6) {as a
strong master showed me after the game. My opponent thought} (Bg5
{might be good, but the master instantly played} 15. Ne4 {!} )

15. Be2 O-O 16. O-O f5 17. f3 Rae8 18. Rac1 Kh8 19. Qc2 Bc8 20. b4 Qd8
21. Qd2 Rf6 22. Kh1 Ref8

{I don't have a complete feel for the Sveshnikov yet, and here I am
mistakenly planning to exchange dark-squared bishops before attacking
instead of just playing} (f4) {to begin the attack.}

23. Na4 Rg6

(f4 {is even better here, since White's N is one move farther away
from the e4 square. After} 24. Bf2 Rh6 25. Rfd1 Bh4 26. Qe1 Rf5 {!
Black has an overwhelming attacking position. One very pretty line the
master found here is} 27. Bxh4 Rxh4 28. Qg1 Rfh5 29. c5 Qg5 {!} 30.
cxb6 Nc5 {!!} 31. bxc5 Qg3 {and White gets mated.} )

24. Rfd1 Bg5 25. Bxg5 Rxg5 26. c5 bxc5 27. bxc5 Nxc5 28. Nxc5 dxc5 29.
Rxc5 f4 30. d6 Bd7 31. Bxa6 Rh5 32. Qe1 Qf6 33. Bb5 Qh6 34. Qg1 Bxb5
35. Rxb5 g5 36. Rxe5 Rd8 37. d7 Qc6 38. Qd4 Kg8 39. Re7 Qh6 40. Qd5+
Kh8 41. Qe5+ Kg8 42. Re8+ Kf7 43. Qe7+ Kg6 44. Rd6+ {Black resigns}
1-0


Thanks for your analysis. (I really liked 30...Nc5 in the variation above).

The exchange sacrifce look ok for black, but at the of the day is the
endgame.


Well, not if White gets blown off the board by a mating attack in the
middlegame because Black piles on the pressure with pieces and pawns
while White is busy trying to retreat the queen and somehow finish his
development.

So the question is wether black has sufficient compensation or not after
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2
Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3

White's queen looks a bit awkward on a8, but it doesn't seem like it is in
any danger. It can easily get out via a7. Any idea how Black should response
to 17.c3?

I have looked at the obvious 17... Be6 18.Qa7 Bxd5 19.Bxb5 Nc5 but this
doesn't seem very convincing.


Try 17...f5! Now we have in fact transposed to the game
L.Markovic-Joksic, Bela Crkva 1986 after 16...f5. (The moves 11.Bg5 f6
were not played in that game, but after 12.Bd2 and 16...f5, the
position is identical.) In that game Black scored a crushing victory:

[Event "Bela Crkva op"]
[Site "Bela Crkva"]
[Date "1986.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Markovic,Lazar"]
[Black "Joksic,Sinisa"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B33"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5
8.exd5 Nb8
9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bd2 0-0 12.Bb4 axb5 13.Qxa8 Na6 14.Bd2 Qb6
15.Be3 Qc7 16.c3 f5 17.Qa7 f4 18.Bd2 Bd7

{Prophylaxis! This move is not so much to hold onto the b5-pawn, as it
is (1) to make White waste more tempi clearing a retreat route for the
queen, and (2) to make White do so without developing his Bf1 at the
same time.}

19.a4 Nc5 20.axb5

{Note the excellent effects of Black's 18th move: If White had been
able to play Bxb5 straight away, it would have relieved the pressure
greatly. But now that he was forced to commit to a2-a4, 20.Bxb5 is no
longer helpful because the retreat square a3 would be taken away from
the queen!}

Bg4

{Having done its job preventing the Bf1 from developing to b5, Black's
light-squared bishop now proceeds to prevent White from completing
development smoothly with Be2 and O-O. Simply fine, fine play from the
experienced IM Sinisa Joksic. By the way, his opponent was no
pushover: FM Lazar Markovic achieved his peak rating of 2300 less than
two years after this game.}

21.Qa2 e4 22.Qc4

{When this is the best move White can come up with, it is clear that
he is in deep trouble.}

Bh4

{What a picture! Bh4, Bg4, Pf4, Pe4.}

23.g3 Re8 24.Ra4

{One of the saddest moves you'll ever see.} ({Of course} 24.gxh4 Nd3+
25.Bxd3 exd3+ {wins the queen.})

e3 25.Bxe3 Re4 26.Ra8+ Kf7 27.Qa2 Rxe3+

{Joksic just doesn't let up. One beautiful attacking move after
another.}

28.fxe3 Qe7 29.Be2

{Having moved his queen seven times and his dark-squared bishop six
times -- it would be seven with the 11.Bg5 move order -- on move 29
White finally moves his king's bishop for the first time, his first
move with a kingside piece since 6.Ndb5. Let this be a warning to
anyone who wants to try the 9.Qf3 variation with White!}

Qxe3 30.Qc4 Bf6

{Calmly retreating the bishop seven moves after White attacked it with
a pawn.}

31.Kd1 f3 32.Re1 fxe2+ 33.Rxe2 Nd3 34.Qc7+ Kg6 35.Kc2 Qxe2+ 36.Kb3 Qd2
0-1
  #7   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 07:38 AM
Geoffrey Caveney
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sicilian Sveshnikov

Peter Billam wrote in message ...

Geoffrey Caveney continued:
It shouldn't be surprising that such an artificial plan for White
turns out to be ineffective against best play. And in fact, even after
the inferior 10...b6 that I played, and then another poor move 14...Qc7,
I still got a fine middlegame position and would have had excellent
winning chances if I had chosen the correct plan at moves 22-23.


I'm not so sure 10..b6 11.c4 Bb7 is inferior; it disables White's
plan, it's a good square for the bishop, and Black continues freely
with Be7, Nd7 and f5 which is all very harmonious and thematic.


There's one thing here I have to disagree with, and that is the claim
that b7 is a good square for the bishop. Actually the bishop won't be
doing much there and Black would rather exchange it or have it on c8
if it doesn't interfere with the development of the rest of his pieces
too much. The pawn structure dictates play along the broad strategic
lines of the King's Indian: Black's play will be on the kingside,
White's on the queenside. Attacking or undermining c4/d5 is not part
of Black's plan in this position.

That said, it's not a knock on the line as a whole: Black should not
have a problem finding a good moment for ...Bc8 later in the
middlegame. But he should keep in mind that that's a move he will want
to make, including if it means exchanging light-squared bishops.
Sometimes a bishop can be bad (have no scope) even if it's not on the
same color as its own pawns.
  #8   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 08:42 AM
Krise
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sicilian Sveshnikov


"Geoffrey Caveney" skrev i melding
om...

Well, not if White gets blown off the board by a mating attack in the
middlegame because Black piles on the pressure with pieces and pawns
while White is busy trying to retreat the queen and somehow finish his
development.

So the question is wether black has sufficient compensation or not after
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5

8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6

15.Bd2
Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3

White's queen looks a bit awkward on a8, but it doesn't seem like it is

in
any danger. It can easily get out via a7. Any idea how Black should

response
to 17.c3?

I have looked at the obvious 17... Be6 18.Qa7 Bxd5 19.Bxb5 Nc5 but this
doesn't seem very convincing.


Try 17...f5! Now we have in fact transposed to the game


A voice keeps telling me that this is good for black, but I still runs into
problems playing this line. A friend of mine and I have gotten into a
theoretical duel in this variation. I play your recomendation, and I kind of
believe in it, but still....



L.Markovic-Joksic, Bela Crkva 1986 after 16...f5. (The moves 11.Bg5 f6
were not played in that game, but after 12.Bd2 and 16...f5, the
position is identical.) In that game Black scored a crushing victory:

[Event "Bela Crkva op"]
[Site "Bela Crkva"]
[Date "1986.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Markovic,Lazar"]
[Black "Joksic,Sinisa"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B33"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5
8.exd5 Nb8
9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bd2 0-0 12.Bb4 axb5 13.Qxa8 Na6 14.Bd2 Qb6
15.Be3 Qc7 16.c3 f5 17.Qa7 f4 18.Bd2 Bd7


Here my friend doesn't play the bishop to d2, but chases my queen to d7 with
Bb6. The queen obstruct the bishop on c8, which really wants to get into the
game. So here are the line we usually plays:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2
Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3 f5 18.Qa7 f4 19.Bb6 Qd7 20.Be2 e4 ( I have tried
20...Qe8 21.0-0 Qg6 22.Bf3 e4 but white can just take the pawn with 23.Bxe4
because Qxe4 is of coure bad due to 24.Rfe1]

What now? Any ideas after whites 20.Be2?

Thanks!


  #9   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 07:21 PM
Geoffrey Caveney
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sicilian Sveshnikov

"Krise" wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Caveney" skrev i melding
om...

Well, not if White gets blown off the board by a mating attack in the
middlegame because Black piles on the pressure with pieces and pawns
while White is busy trying to retreat the queen and somehow finish his
development.

So the question is wether black has sufficient compensation or not after
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5

8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6

15.Bd2
Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3

White's queen looks a bit awkward on a8, but it doesn't seem like it is

in
any danger. It can easily get out via a7. Any idea how Black should

response
to 17.c3?

I have looked at the obvious 17... Be6 18.Qa7 Bxd5 19.Bxb5 Nc5 but this
doesn't seem very convincing.


Try 17...f5! Now we have in fact transposed to the game


A voice keeps telling me that this is good for black, but I still runs into
problems playing this line. A friend of mine and I have gotten into a
theoretical duel in this variation. I play your recomendation, and I kind of
believe in it, but still....


Can you give some complete game scores of the games you play with your
friend in this line, or as much as you can remember? That might help
to provide some insight into why you're not comfortable with Black's
position.

Also, it's worth noting that if you are only playing blitz games in
this line, it may be giving you a distorted picture. I think that in
positions like this, it is actually much easier to quickly find
defensive, consolidating moves for White than it is to quickly find
the best, most precise attacking moves for Black that keep the
pressure on and maintain a long-term initiative. A slow, tournament
time control might well suit Black better.

In any case, if you want to play the Sveshnikov Sicilian, you have to
be willing and in fact eager to look for opportunities to sacrifice
the exchange for positional compensation in the middlegame. Strong
exchange sacs for Black come up all the time in just about every
variation of the Sveshnikov.

L.Markovic-Joksic, Bela Crkva 1986 after 16...f5. (The moves 11.Bg5 f6
were not played in that game, but after 12.Bd2 and 16...f5, the
position is identical.) In that game Black scored a crushing victory:

[Event "Bela Crkva op"]
[Site "Bela Crkva"]
[Date "1986.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Markovic,Lazar"]
[Black "Joksic,Sinisa"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B33"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5
8.exd5 Nb8
9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bd2 0-0 12.Bb4 axb5 13.Qxa8 Na6 14.Bd2 Qb6
15.Be3 Qc7 16.c3 f5 17.Qa7 f4 18.Bd2 Bd7


Here my friend doesn't play the bishop to d2, but chases my queen to d7 with
Bb6. The queen obstruct the bishop on c8, which really wants to get into the
game. So here are the line we usually plays:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2
Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3 f5 18.Qa7 f4 19.Bb6 Qd7 20.Be2 e4 ( I have tried
20...Qe8 21.0-0 Qg6 22.Bf3 e4 but white can just take the pawn with 23.Bxe4
because Qxe4 is of coure bad due to 24.Rfe1]

What now? Any ideas after whites 20.Be2?


I think that 20...e4 is the right move and that Black has tremendous
compensation in this position. 21.O-O?? f3 will get White mated on g2
or cost him the bishop, so 21.f3 looks necessary. Now after 21...e3,
the first question is where does White put his king? Kingside castling
is just asking to be mated when Black transfers his rook and queen to
the h-file. Queenside castling is ridiculous when Black has so many
diagonals and files to attack on in that direction. Leaving the king
in the center has to be best, but that will leave his rooks almost as
poorly coordinated as his queen and dark-squared bishop "battery" on
a7 and b6 (one wants to tell them, "excuse me, the Black king is on
the *other* side of the board").

I think White's best try after 20.Be2 e4 21.f3 e3 is actually 22.Bxe3
fxe3 23.Qxe3. But I still prefer Black in the resulting position: two
minor pieces are much better than a rook in a middlegame with so many
pieces still on the board, and neither White's queenside nor kingside
pawn majority is particularly mobile or dangerous here.

I will be interested to hear what ideas your friend comes up with for
White in these positions.
  #10   Report Post  
Old June 16th 04, 07:26 PM
Geoffrey Caveney
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sicilian Sveshnikov

"Krise" wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Caveney" skrev i melding
om...

Well, not if White gets blown off the board by a mating attack in the
middlegame because Black piles on the pressure with pieces and pawns
while White is busy trying to retreat the queen and somehow finish his
development.

So the question is wether black has sufficient compensation or not after
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5

8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6

15.Bd2
Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3

White's queen looks a bit awkward on a8, but it doesn't seem like it is

in
any danger. It can easily get out via a7. Any idea how Black should

response
to 17.c3?

I have looked at the obvious 17... Be6 18.Qa7 Bxd5 19.Bxb5 Nc5 but this
doesn't seem very convincing.


Try 17...f5! Now we have in fact transposed to the game


A voice keeps telling me that this is good for black, but I still runs into
problems playing this line. A friend of mine and I have gotten into a
theoretical duel in this variation. I play your recomendation, and I kind of
believe in it, but still....


Can you give some complete game scores of the games you play with your
friend in this line, or as much as you can remember? That might help
to provide some insight into why you're not comfortable with Black's
position.

Also, it's worth noting that if you are only playing blitz games in
this line, it may be giving you a distorted picture. I think that in
positions like this, it is actually much easier to quickly find
defensive, consolidating moves for White than it is to quickly find
the best, most precise attacking moves for Black that keep the
pressure on and maintain a long-term initiative. A slow, tournament
time control might well suit Black better.

In any case, if you want to play the Sveshnikov Sicilian, you have to
be willing and in fact eager to look for opportunities to sacrifice
the exchange for positional compensation in the middlegame. Strong
exchange sacs for Black come up all the time in just about every
variation of the Sveshnikov.

L.Markovic-Joksic, Bela Crkva 1986 after 16...f5. (The moves 11.Bg5 f6
were not played in that game, but after 12.Bd2 and 16...f5, the
position is identical.) In that game Black scored a crushing victory:

[Event "Bela Crkva op"]
[Site "Bela Crkva"]
[Date "1986.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Markovic,Lazar"]
[Black "Joksic,Sinisa"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B33"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5
8.exd5 Nb8
9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bd2 0-0 12.Bb4 axb5 13.Qxa8 Na6 14.Bd2 Qb6
15.Be3 Qc7 16.c3 f5 17.Qa7 f4 18.Bd2 Bd7


Here my friend doesn't play the bishop to d2, but chases my queen to d7 with
Bb6. The queen obstruct the bishop on c8, which really wants to get into the
game. So here are the line we usually plays:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5
Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2
Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3 f5 18.Qa7 f4 19.Bb6 Qd7 20.Be2 e4 ( I have tried
20...Qe8 21.0-0 Qg6 22.Bf3 e4 but white can just take the pawn with 23.Bxe4
because Qxe4 is of coure bad due to 24.Rfe1]

What now? Any ideas after whites 20.Be2?


I think that 20...e4 is the right move and that Black has tremendous
compensation in this position. 21.O-O?? f3 will get White mated on g2
or cost him the bishop, so 21.f3 looks necessary. Now after 21...e3,
the first question is where does White put his king? Kingside castling
is just asking to be mated when Black transfers his rook and queen to
the h-file. Queenside castling is ridiculous when Black has so many
diagonals and files to attack on in that direction. Leaving the king
in the center has to be best, but that will leave his rooks almost as
poorly coordinated as his queen and dark-squared bishop "battery" on
a7 and b6 (one wants to tell them, "excuse me, the Black king is on
the *other* side of the board").

I think White's best try after 20.Be2 e4 21.f3 e3 is actually 22.Bxe3
fxe3 23.Qxe3. But I still prefer Black in the resulting position: two
minor pieces are much better than a rook in a middlegame with so many
pieces still on the board, and neither White's queenside nor kingside
pawn majority is particularly mobile or dangerous here.

I will be interested to hear what ideas your friend comes up with for
White in these positions.
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