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Old July 4th 04, 01:15 PM
Sam Sloan
 
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Default How much are "Open Book Odds" worth?

A common misconception weak players have is that they are weak and the
strong players are strong only because the strong players have
memorized more opening book lines.

In the game of Scrabble, it is common for strong players to offer weak
players "Dictionary Odds". Players who are not good at scrabble are
allowed to look up words in the dictionary, which the strong player
cannot do.

It turns out that dictionary odds are worth very little in scrabble.

I have never seen this done but in chess I am prepared to offer
opening book odds. I will alow my opponent to bring any chess opening
book to the board, and he will be allowed to look up any opening in
the book and play any more he finds there.

Since I play off-beat openings not found in any book, I will give the
added stipulation that I will only play standard normal openings found
in MCO and other standard works.

The question is: How much is this worth?

I believe that this will be worth about 100 rating points, not more.
In other words, a 1700 player will play equal to an 1800 player with
these odds.

Sorry, but you 1700 players out there will not play like a grandmaster
even with these odds.

Sam Sloan
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Old July 5th 04, 04:20 AM
Mark S. Hathaway
 
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Default How much are "Open Book Odds" worth?

Sam Sloan wrote:

A common misconception weak players have is that they are weak and the
strong players are strong only because the strong players have
memorized more opening book lines.


I have never seen this done but in chess I am prepared to offer
opening book odds. I will alow my opponent to bring any chess opening
book to the board, and he will be allowed to look up any opening in
the book and play any more he finds there.


The question is: How much is this worth?

I believe that this will be worth about 100 rating points, not more.
In other words, a 1700 player will play equal to an 1800 player with
these odds.

Sorry, but you 1700 players out there will not play like a grandmaster
even with these odds.


I tend to agree with Sam. I don't know precisely how much an
opening book would help, but I know I've played GMs in openings
I hadn't studied and some kind of general idea of how to play
has taken me through the openings quite well. Usually it's the
GM who varies from book before me. However, that doesn't mean
I then proceed to crush them.

I admire GMs immensely. Their chess character, persistence,
creativeness and (usually) immense reservoir of chess knowledge
is tough to beat.

Sam, an Expert, and I crush class A players without much effort
and I daresay an opening book would be of no real use to them
against Experts or better.

Ask a computer how many permutations there are in any 10-move
sequence and it's rather astounding. How does a book help? It
narrows down your choices to those which have been made by other
people. But, the second you are in new territory, which Sam
would ensure quickly, then you have to play on your own, and
that's the rub of it.

I've even had GMs play bad moves against me in order to throw
me off. They can simply bluff through some situations in order
to quickly get out of your book and then outplay with great
confidence. Of course, being human, they can't always pull it
off without pyrotechnics, but they've got those too.

Give a Class A player an ECO or something akin to that and I'd
still bet on Sam at something like 8-to-1 odds to win every
game. That is, if I were a betting kinda guy.

BTW, it's not arrogance, chess is about skill, not luck. So,
it's simple confidence it one's known abilities.

As one GM put it, "you should never draw to a player like that".
And, usually they don't, they win.

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Old July 6th 04, 05:32 AM
Jerry Spinrad
 
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Default How much are "Open Book Odds" worth?

There are 2 somewhat different subcases to consider. In one case, A
plays B, and both know B will use a book. In a second case, A plays B,
and A doesn't know that B is using a book (a basic form of computer
cheating).

I play lines which are known to be busted quite frequently, figuring
opponents will not know the long,dangerous looking, obscure lines.
However, if I run into these lines unexpectedly, I am really quite far
down in the game. I would never go into these lines if I knew my
opponent had a book.

My guess is that having a book in the first situation is worth less
than 100 points, while in the second case it varies very much by how
sound player A's opening lines are. On average at amateur levels, the
second case is worth more than 100 points (my guess only of course).

Interesting ethical question on how to test the 2 cases. The easiest
way is to play on the computer with book, alternately telling
opponents/not telling that you are using a book. Doesn't seem to
ethical, however. Of course, according to Mr Bibuld, Sam is a "moral
bacillus", so maybe it won't tarnish his soul much to try this out!

Jerry Spinrad

(Sam Sloan) wrote in message ...
A common misconception weak players have is that they are weak and the
strong players are strong only because the strong players have
memorized more opening book lines.

In the game of Scrabble, it is common for strong players to offer weak
players "Dictionary Odds". Players who are not good at scrabble are
allowed to look up words in the dictionary, which the strong player
cannot do.

It turns out that dictionary odds are worth very little in scrabble.

I have never seen this done but in chess I am prepared to offer
opening book odds. I will alow my opponent to bring any chess opening
book to the board, and he will be allowed to look up any opening in
the book and play any more he finds there.

Since I play off-beat openings not found in any book, I will give the
added stipulation that I will only play standard normal openings found
in MCO and other standard works.

The question is: How much is this worth?

I believe that this will be worth about 100 rating points, not more.
In other words, a 1700 player will play equal to an 1800 player with
these odds.

Sorry, but you 1700 players out there will not play like a grandmaster
even with these odds.

Sam Sloan

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Old July 6th 04, 07:46 AM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default How much are "Open Book Odds" worth?


Sam,

You're a ****ty player, about my strength. You couldn't offer a C player
"dictionary" odds and neither could I, even though I now own not one but
THREE pair of "chess glasses."

You'd be losing at move 12 90% of the time. Very bad odds. Go find Win Moe,
dude. Convert him to Islam.

adp


"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...
A common misconception weak players have is that they are weak and the
strong players are strong only because the strong players have
memorized more opening book lines.

In the game of Scrabble, it is common for strong players to offer weak
players "Dictionary Odds". Players who are not good at scrabble are
allowed to look up words in the dictionary, which the strong player
cannot do.

It turns out that dictionary odds are worth very little in scrabble.

I have never seen this done but in chess I am prepared to offer
opening book odds. I will alow my opponent to bring any chess opening
book to the board, and he will be allowed to look up any opening in
the book and play any more he finds there.

Since I play off-beat openings not found in any book, I will give the
added stipulation that I will only play standard normal openings found
in MCO and other standard works.

The question is: How much is this worth?

I believe that this will be worth about 100 rating points, not more.
In other words, a 1700 player will play equal to an 1800 player with
these odds.

Sorry, but you 1700 players out there will not play like a grandmaster
even with these odds.

Sam Sloan



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