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Old September 23rd 06, 07:15 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Veselin Topalov vs Vladimir Kramnik (Rd. 1)

Kramnik had the White pieces. It look like Topalov's win, until he
blundered with 57..f5. Kramnik capitalized and won.

[Event "World Chess Championship -- Elista 2006"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.09.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Kramnik"]
[Black "Topalov"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E04"]
[WhiteElo "2813"]
[BlackElo "2743"]
[PlyCount "149"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]
[SourceDate "2006.09.23"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. g3 dxc4 5. Bg2 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 a5 7. Qc2
Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c6 9. a4 b5 10. axb5 cxb5 11. Qg5 O-O 12. Qxb5 Ba6 13.
Qa4 Qb6 14. O-O Qxb2 15. Nbd2 Bb5 16. Nxc4 Bxa4 17. Nxb2 Bb5 18.
Ne5 {16:00h local Elista time.} Ra7 19. Bf3 Nbd7 20. Nec4 Rb8 21.
Rfb1 g5 22. e3 g4 23. Bd1 Bc6 24. Rc1 Be4 25. Na4 Rb4 26. Nd6 Bf3 27.
Bxf3 gxf3 28. Nc8 Ra8 29. Ne7+ Kg7 30. Nc6 Rb3 31. Nc5 Rb5
32. h3 Nxc5 33. Rxc5 Rb2 34. Rg5+ Kh6 35. Rgxa5 Rxa5 36. Nxa5 Ne4 37.
Rf1 Nd2 38. Rc1 Ne4 39. Rf1 f6 40. Nc6 Nd2 41. Rd1 Ne4 42. Rf1 Kg6 43.
Nd8 Rb6 44. Rc1 h5 45. Ra1 h4 46. gxh4 Kh5 47. Ra2 Kxh4 48. Kh2 Kh5
49. Rc2 Kh6 50. Ra2 Kg6 51. Rc2 Kf5 52. Ra2 Rb5 53. Nc6 Rb7 54. Ra5+
Kg6 55. Ra2 Kh5 56. d5 e5 57. Ra4 f5 58. Nxe5 Rb2 59. Nd3 Rb7 60. Rd4
Rb6 61. d6 Nxd6 62. Kg3 Ne4+ 63. Kxf3 Kg5 64. h4+ Kf6 65. Rd5 Nc3 66.
Rd8 Rb1 67. Rf8+ Ke6 68. Nf4+ Ke5 69. Re8+ Kf6 70. Nh5+ Kg6
71. Ng3 Rb2 72. h5+ Kf7 73. Re5 Nd1 74. Ne2 Kf6 75. Rd5 1-0


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Old September 23rd 06, 07:32 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Veselin Topalov vs Vladimir Kramnik (Rd. 1)

LSD wrote:
Kramnik had the White pieces. It look like Topalov's win, until he
blundered with 57..f5. Kramnik capitalized and won.

Did Topalov ever have more than sufficient compensation for his pawn?

GM Inarkiev comments on the match website that while 57...f5 was "a big
mistake," the superior 57...Nxf2 leads only to a draw. Did Black have
anything better earlier on?

Chas.

[Event "World Chess Championship -- Elista 2006"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.09.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Kramnik"]
[Black "Topalov"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E04"]
[WhiteElo "2813"]
[BlackElo "2743"]
[PlyCount "149"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]
[SourceDate "2006.09.23"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. g3 dxc4 5. Bg2 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 a5 7. Qc2
Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c6 9. a4 b5 10. axb5 cxb5 11. Qg5 O-O 12. Qxb5 Ba6 13.
Qa4 Qb6 14. O-O Qxb2 15. Nbd2 Bb5 16. Nxc4 Bxa4 17. Nxb2 Bb5 18.
Ne5 {16:00h local Elista time.} Ra7 19. Bf3 Nbd7 20. Nec4 Rb8 21.
Rfb1 g5 22. e3 g4 23. Bd1 Bc6 24. Rc1 Be4 25. Na4 Rb4 26. Nd6 Bf3 27.
Bxf3 gxf3 28. Nc8 Ra8 29. Ne7+ Kg7 30. Nc6 Rb3 31. Nc5 Rb5
32. h3 Nxc5 33. Rxc5 Rb2 34. Rg5+ Kh6 35. Rgxa5 Rxa5 36. Nxa5 Ne4 37.
Rf1 Nd2 38. Rc1 Ne4 39. Rf1 f6 40. Nc6 Nd2 41. Rd1 Ne4 42. Rf1 Kg6 43.
Nd8 Rb6 44. Rc1 h5 45. Ra1 h4 46. gxh4 Kh5 47. Ra2 Kxh4 48. Kh2 Kh5
49. Rc2 Kh6 50. Ra2 Kg6 51. Rc2 Kf5 52. Ra2 Rb5 53. Nc6 Rb7 54. Ra5+
Kg6 55. Ra2 Kh5 56. d5 e5 57. Ra4 f5 58. Nxe5 Rb2 59. Nd3 Rb7 60. Rd4
Rb6 61. d6 Nxd6 62. Kg3 Ne4+ 63. Kxf3 Kg5 64. h4+ Kf6 65. Rd5 Nc3 66.
Rd8 Rb1 67. Rf8+ Ke6 68. Nf4+ Ke5 69. Re8+ Kf6 70. Nh5+ Kg6
71. Ng3 Rb2 72. h5+ Kf7 73. Re5 Nd1 74. Ne2 Kf6 75. Rd5 1-0


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Old September 23rd 06, 08:01 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Veselin Topalov vs Vladimir Kramnik (Rd. 1)

I watched much of Kramnik-Topalov live and it was very exciting. It
surprised me that Kramnik stopped to think as early as move 5! He's
great--not because he knows every line 15 moves deep--but due to a
superb understanding of positions.

Topalov's 5...Bb4 left the main lines, and 12...Ba6 was a novelty. I
imagine Topalov, in contrast to Kramnik, knew very well where the
opening was heading. Hats off to him for playing energetically from the
first game of the match!

LSD wrote:
Kramnik had the White pieces. It look like Topalov's win, until he
blundered with 57..f5. Kramnik capitalized and won.


When and to whom did it look like Topalov's win? His position looked
slightly better after 13...Qb6. The draw predictions began at 15...Bb5
and intensified after 18...Ra7.

Black had the passed a-pawn, but most thought it hard to defend and
expected Topalov would trade it for another pawn leading to a draw, or
at least double his rooks on the c-file and obtain good counterplay.

After 35.Nxa5, Black is playing for a draw. I don't think Seirawan and
Kushing predicted a Topalov win--but I didn't hear all their comments.

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Old September 23rd 06, 08:05 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
LSD LSD is offline
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Default Veselin Topalov vs Vladimir Kramnik (Rd. 1)

At the approximate date and time 23 Sep 2006 11:32:01 -0700, someone
posting as "chasmad" posted:

LSD wrote:
Kramnik had the White pieces. It look like Topalov's win, until he
blundered with 57..f5. Kramnik capitalized and won.

Did Topalov ever have more than sufficient compensation for his pawn?

GM Inarkiev comments on the match website that while 57...f5 was "a big
mistake," the superior 57...Nxf2 leads only to a draw. Did Black have
anything better earlier on?

Chas.


Hmm, I followed the play by play with my friend DJ9. I think that
Topalov had the best chances after Kramnik's 43. Nd8. If Topa had
replied 43..e5, DJ9 scored it -0.78 despite White's material
advantage.

Would that have been enough to defeat Drawnik? I thought so, but
can't say for sure.


[Event "World Chess Championship -- Elista 2006"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.09.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Kramnik"]
[Black "Topalov"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E04"]
[WhiteElo "2813"]
[BlackElo "2743"]
[PlyCount "149"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]
[SourceDate "2006.09.23"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. g3 dxc4 5. Bg2 Bb4+ 6. Bd2 a5 7. Qc2
Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 c6 9. a4 b5 10. axb5 cxb5 11. Qg5 O-O 12. Qxb5 Ba6 13.
Qa4 Qb6 14. O-O Qxb2 15. Nbd2 Bb5 16. Nxc4 Bxa4 17. Nxb2 Bb5 18.
Ne5 {16:00h local Elista time.} Ra7 19. Bf3 Nbd7 20. Nec4 Rb8 21.
Rfb1 g5 22. e3 g4 23. Bd1 Bc6 24. Rc1 Be4 25. Na4 Rb4 26. Nd6 Bf3 27.
Bxf3 gxf3 28. Nc8 Ra8 29. Ne7+ Kg7 30. Nc6 Rb3 31. Nc5 Rb5
32. h3 Nxc5 33. Rxc5 Rb2 34. Rg5+ Kh6 35. Rgxa5 Rxa5 36. Nxa5 Ne4 37.
Rf1 Nd2 38. Rc1 Ne4 39. Rf1 f6 40. Nc6 Nd2 41. Rd1 Ne4 42. Rf1 Kg6 43.
Nd8 Rb6 44. Rc1 h5 45. Ra1 h4 46. gxh4 Kh5 47. Ra2 Kxh4 48. Kh2 Kh5
49. Rc2 Kh6 50. Ra2 Kg6 51. Rc2 Kf5 52. Ra2 Rb5 53. Nc6 Rb7 54. Ra5+
Kg6 55. Ra2 Kh5 56. d5 e5 57. Ra4 f5 58. Nxe5 Rb2 59. Nd3 Rb7 60. Rd4
Rb6 61. d6 Nxd6 62. Kg3 Ne4+ 63. Kxf3 Kg5 64. h4+ Kf6 65. Rd5 Nc3 66.
Rd8 Rb1 67. Rf8+ Ke6 68. Nf4+ Ke5 69. Re8+ Kf6 70. Nh5+ Kg6
71. Ng3 Rb2 72. h5+ Kf7 73. Re5 Nd1 74. Ne2 Kf6 75. Rd5 1-0


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Old September 23rd 06, 08:19 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Veselin Topalov vs Vladimir Kramnik (Rd. 1)

wrote:
After 35.Nxa5, Black is playing for a draw.


You mean after 36. Nxa5? But if Black wanted a draw, why didn't he just
take a repetition after 36...Ne4 37. Rf1 Nd2 38. Rc1 Ne4 39. Rf1 by
playing 39...Nd2 instead of 39...f6?

Looks like Black overpressed in a drawn position.

Chas.



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Old September 23rd 06, 08:55 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Veselin Topalov vs Vladimir Kramnik (Rd. 1)

LSD wrote:
Hmm, I followed the play by play with my friend DJ9. I think that
Topalov had the best chances after Kramnik's 43. Nd8. If Topa had
replied 43..e5, DJ9 scored it -0.78 despite White's material
advantage.


Post the lines. After 43...e5 44.Nc6, how does Black get an advantage?
It looks like a 0.00 position to both my own eyes and Rybka.

44...exd4 45.Nxd4 - Better for White.
44...Nd2 45.Rc1 Ne4 - Leads to a draw by repetition.
44...Ng5 45.Kh2 Ne4 - Leads to a draw by repetition.
44...h5 45.dxe5 fxe5 46.Nxe5+ - Better for White.

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Old September 23rd 06, 10:34 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Veselin Topalov vs Vladimir Kramnik (Rd. 1)

At the approximate date and time 23 Sep 2006 12:55:49 -0700, someone
posting as " posted:

LSD wrote:
Hmm, I followed the play by play with my friend DJ9. I think that
Topalov had the best chances after Kramnik's 43. Nd8. If Topa had
replied 43..e5, DJ9 scored it -0.78 despite White's material
advantage.


Post the lines.


Sure, but first I should clarify that I was using DJ8, not its
successor as I had previously stated. After crunching just over 1
billion moves, here's what DJ8 spit out:

3N4/7p/5pk1/4p3/3Pn3/4PpPP/1r3P2/5RK1 w - - 0 1

1. (-0.72): 44.g4 exd4 45.exd4 Kg5 46.Ne6+ Kh4 47.Nf4 Nc3 48.Kh2 Ne2
49.Nh5 f5 50.d5 Rb6 51.Ng7 fxg4 52.Nf5+ Kg5 53.hxg4
2. (-0.84): 44.h4 Kf5 45.Nf7 Ke6 46.Nh6 f5 47.dxe5 Kxe5 48.g4 f4
49.exf4+ Kxf4 50.g5 Nc3 51.Nf7
3. (-0.85): 44.Ne6 h5
4. (-0.94): 44.Nc6 Kf5 45.g4+ Ke6 46.h4 Kd6 47.Na5 Kd5 48.dxe5 fxe5
49.g5 Ra2 50.Nb7 Rc2 51.h5 Nxg5 52.Ra1
5. (-1.07): 44.dxe5 fxe5 45.Nc6 Kf5 46.g4+ Kf6 47.Na7 Ng5 48.Kh2 Ke6
49.h4 Ne4 50.Kg1 h6 51.Nc6 Kf6
6. (-1.19): 44.d5 h5
7. -+ (-5.26): 44.Kh2 Nxf2
8. -+ (-5.26): 44.Nf7 Kxf7
9. -+ (-5.26): 44.Nb7 Rxb7
10. -+ (-5.26): 44.Kh1 Nxf2+
11. -+ (-#9): 44.Ra1 Rxf2 45.Nc6 Rg2+ 46.Kf1 Nxg3+ 47.Ke1 Re2+ 48.Kd1
f2 49.Nxe5+ Kh5 50.Nf3 f1Q+ 51.Ne1 Qxe1#
12. -+ (-#9): 44.Rc1 Rxf2
13. -+ (-#9): 44.Rb1 Rxf2
14. -+ (-#7): 44.Rd1 Rxf2 45.Rd3 Rg2+ 46.Kf1 Re2 47.Kg1 Nxg3 48.Rd2
Rxd2 49.e4 Rg2#
15. -+ (-#7): 44.Re1 Rxf2
--------------------------------------------------

After 43...e5 44.Nc6, how does Black get an advantage?
It looks like a 0.00 position to both my own eyes and Rybka.

44...exd4 45.Nxd4 - Better for White.
44...Nd2 45.Rc1 Ne4 - Leads to a draw by repetition.
44...Ng5 45.Kh2 Ne4 - Leads to a draw by repetition.
44...h5 45.dxe5 fxe5 46.Nxe5+ - Better for White.


Strangely, after 43..e5 44.Nc6, DJ8 did not think any of your
suggested continuations was as good as 44..Kf5. Here are those lines
as well (purportedly to a depth of 20 after crunching 1.1 billion
moves):

8/7p/2N2p2/4pk2/3Pn3/4PpPP/1r3P2/5RK1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Deep Junior 8:

1. (-1.02): 45.g4+ Ke6 46.h4 Kd6 47.Na5 Kd5 48.dxe5 fxe5 49.Rd1+ Ke6
50.Rf1 Rc2 51.Nb7 h6
2. (-1.03): 45.dxe5 fxe5 46.g4+ Kf6 47.h4 Rc2 48.g5+ Ke6 49.Nb4 Rd2
50.Nc6 Kf5 51.Ne7+ Kg4 52.g6 hxg6 53.Nxg6
3. (-1.04): 45.d5 Rd2 46.Ne7+ Kg5 47.g4 Rb2 48.Kh2 Ra2 49.Nf5 Nxf2
50.Kg3 Ne4+ 51.Kxf3 Nd2+ 52.Kg2 Nxf1+ 53.Kxf1 Rb2
4. (-0.99): 45.Na5 Ke6 46.dxe5 fxe5 47.Nc4 Rc2 48.Na3 Ra2 49.Nc4 Kd5
50.Nb6+
5. (-1.00): 45.h4 Ke6 46.g4 Kd6 47.Na5 Kd5 48.dxe5 fxe5 49.Rd1+ Ke6
50.Rf1 Rc2 51.Nb3 h6 52.h5
6. (-1.15): 45.Nd8 exd4 46.exd4 Rd2 47.Nc6 Ke6 48.h4 Kd5 49.Ne7+
Kxd4 50.Nf5+ Kc3 51.g4 Kd3 52.h5
7. (-1.16): 45.Ne7+ Ke6 46.Nc6 Kd6 47.Na5 Kd5 48.dxe5 fxe5 49.Rd1+
Ke6 50.Rf1 Rc2 51.g4 Kd5 52.Nb7
8. (-1.38): 45.Na7 exd4 46.exd4 Ke6 47.h4 Kd5 48.Nc8 Kxd4 49.Ne7 Ke5
50.h5 Rc2 51.g4
9. -+ (-3.21): 45.Kh2 Nxf2 46.g4+ Ke4 47.Kg3 Kxe3 48.dxe5 Ne4+ 49.Kh4
Rb6 50.Re1+ Kd3 51.Rc1 Kd2 52.exf6 Rxc6 53.Rxc6 f2 54.Rc4
10. -+ (-4.74): 45.Nxe5 fxe5 46.g4+ Ke6 47.dxe5 Kxe5 48.h4 Nf6 49.g5
Ne4 50.Kh2 Nxf2 51.Kg3 Ne4+ 52.Kg4 Nd2 53.Rf2 Ke4
11. -+ (-5.54): 45.Nb8 Rxb8 46.Rd1 Rb2 47.g4+ Kg5 48.Rf1 Rb8
12. -+ (-5.54): 45.Nb4 Rxb4 46.g4+ Kg5 47.Rc1 Rb2 48.Rf1
13. -+ (-6.31): 45.Kh1 Nxf2+
14. -+ (-19.60): 45.Ra1 Rxf2 46.Ne7+ Kg5 47.Nf5 Rg2+ 48.Kf1 Nd2+
49.Ke1 f2+ 50.Kxd2 f1Q+ 51.Kc3 Qxa1+ 52.Kc4 Kxf5 53.Kd5 Qa2+ 54.Kd6
15. -+ (-22.98): 45.Rd1 Rxf2 46.Ne7+ Ke6 47.Nf5 Kxf5 48.g4+ Ke6 49.Rd3
Rg2+ 50.Kf1 Ng3+ 51.Ke1 f2+ 52.Kd2 f1Q+ 53.Kc3 Ne4+ 54.Kc4
16. -+ (-#12): 45.Rb1 Rxb1+
17. -+ (-#11): 45.Rc1 Rxf2
18. -+ (-#9): 45.Re1 Rxf2 46.Ne7+ Kg5 47.h4+ Kg4 48.Ra1 Rg2+ 49.Kf1
Nxg3+ 50.Ke1 Re2+ 51.Kd1 f2 52.dxe5 f1Q#
----------------------------------------------------------------

I am relied on this finding when making my previous statements.
Perhaps this output is an example of an engine missing subtleties of
the endgame?

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Old September 24th 06, 01:15 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Veselin Topalov vs Vladimir Kramnik (Rd. 1)

LSD wrote:
After 43...e5 44.Nc6, how does Black get an advantage?
It looks like a 0.00 position to both my own eyes and Rybka.

44...exd4 45.Nxd4 - Better for White.
44...Nd2 45.Rc1 Ne4 - Leads to a draw by repetition.
44...Ng5 45.Kh2 Ne4 - Leads to a draw by repetition.
44...h5 45.dxe5 fxe5 46.Nxe5+ - Better for White.


Strangely, after 43..e5 44.Nc6, DJ8 did not think any of your
suggested continuations was as good as 44..Kf5.


At first my engine sees 44...Nd2, 44...Ng5, and 44...Kf5 as similar,
but after a few seconds it picks 44...Kf5 as well.

2. (-1.03): 45.dxe5 fxe5 46.g4+ Kf6 47.h4 Rc2 48.g5+ Ke6 49.Nb4 Rd2
50.Nc6 Kf5 51.Ne7+ Kg4 52.g6 hxg6 53.Nxg6


After 43...e5 44.Nc6 Kf5 45.dxe5 fxe5 they disagree.. Rybka picks 46.h4
at 10 minutes depth while DJ8 picks 46.g4+:

(-0.17) 46.h4 Ke6 47.Nd8+ Kf6 48.h6 Na7 49.Rc2 Nb5 50.Ra2 Nc7
(-0.25) 46.g4+ Kf6 47.Na5 Rc2 48.h4 Nd2 49.Rd1 h6 50.Ra1 Ke6

The pawn chain after 46.h4 looks more solid, but perhaps with perfect
play Black can force White to play g4 later anyway.

Perhaps this output is an example of an engine missing subtleties of
the endgame?


I can't say. Kramnik and Topalov had a hard time playing this endgame,
and I have yet to even study R+N vs R+N with pawns.

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Old September 24th 06, 11:39 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Veselin Topalov vs Vladimir Kramnik (Rd. 1)

Kramnik had the White pieces. It look like Topalov's win, until he
blundered with 57..f5. Kramnik capitalized and won.


Topalov was as stubborn as Fischer in Game 1 in 1972, trying to win a drawn
position, and losing with Black.

Now all he needs to do is throw a tantrum, forfeit Game 2, and he's good to
go.


--
Money is not "game."
Looks are not "game."
Social status or value is not "game."
Those are the things that game makes unnecessary.

A seduction guru who teaches you that looks, money or status is game is not
teaching you "game," but how to be an AFC. He uses his students' money to
get women and laughs that "loser AFCs pay my rent."



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