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Old February 26th 08, 09:12 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Is sacrificing Rook for Knight Correct.

In below game Help Bot Sacrificed its Rook for a Knight.

Advantage of this Sacrifice.

1. King became Open as g2 Pawn was at f3.
2. Double pawns at f2 and f3.

But is this sacrifice Correct?

As after some moves White Exchanged its double Pawn. Yes the king file
was Open. But still Rook is +2 points than a Knight.

Game Played between help bot and easy at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
easy: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...212&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(easy) -- (help bot)

1. e2-e4{0} e7-e5{4}
2. Ng1-f3{28} Ng8-f6{18}
3. Nb1-c3{28} Nb8-c6{8}
4. Bf1-c4{32} Nf6-e4{38}
5. Bc4-f7{44} Ke8-f7{6}
6. Nc3-e4{32} Bf8-e7{44}
7. c2-c4{20} Rh8-f8{26}
8. Ke1-g1{32} Kf7-g8{12}
9. Qd1-b3{32} Kg8-h8{48}
10. d2-d3{26} d7-d6{26}
11. Rf1-e1{36} Rf8-f3{20}
12. g2-f3{28} Nc6-d4{10}
13. Qb3-d1{24} Bc8-h3{52}
14. f3-f4{30} Qd8-e8{20}
15. Re1-e3{46} Bh3-d7{68}
16. f4-e5{50} d6-e5{18}
17. Bc1-d2{22} Nd4-e6{48}
18. Ra1-b1{42} Qe8-f7{34}
19. Re3-f3{30} Qf7-e8{78}
20. Rb1-a1{90} Ra8-d8{36}
21. Bd2-c3{20} Bd7-c6{38}
22. Qd1-f1{20} Ne6-g5{72}
23. Rf3-e3{20} Qe8-h5{62}
24. Ne4-g5{26} Qh5-g5{60}
25. Re3-g3{32} Qg5-f6{60}
26. Qf1-e1{26} Be7-d6{52}
27. Qe1-e3{24} b7-b6{12}
28. b2-b4{52} Rd8-e8{86}
29. c4-c5{20} Bd6-f8{12}
30. Rg3-g5{26} b6-c5{54}
31. Rg5-e5{30} Re8-e5{12}
32. Bc3-e5{28} Qf6-g6{34}
33. Qe3-g3{34} Qg6-f7{98}
34. a2-a3{32} Qf7-d5{330}
35. f2-f4{24} a7-a5{120}
36. b4-b5{22} Bc6-b5{50}
37. f4-f5{32} Bb5-d3{108}
38. f5-f6{28} Kh8-g8{38}
39. f6-g7{26} Bf8-e7{164}
40. Qg3-e3{22} c5-c4{48}
41. Be5-d4{20} c4-c3{286}
42. Ra1-e1{44} Bd3-b5{54}
43. a3-a4{30} Bb5-a4{94}
44. Qe3-e5{24} Qd5-e5{120}
45. Bd4-e5{34} c3-c2{80}
46. Re1-a1{20} Ba4-b3{92}
47. Be5-b2{32} a5-a4{32}
48. Kg1-h1{32} a4-a3{102}
49. Bb2-e5{36} Be7-g5{70}
50. h2-h3{48} Qc2-c1{Q}{56}
51. Ra1-c1{20} Bg5-c1{12}
52. Be5-c7{20} Bc1-b2{16}
53. Kh1-h2{72} a3-a2{20}
54. Kh2-g2{24} Qa2-a1{Q}{20}
55. Bc7-f4{22} Qa1-e1{30}
56. h3-h4{38} Bb3-d5{24}
57. Kg2-h3{46}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
easy: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...212&game=Chess

Why did Help Bot sacrificed Rook for just a Knight? was it a correct
Move?

What were the wrong moves played by Easy Level that it lost in 57
Moves?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Old February 26th 08, 10:14 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is sacrificing Rook for Knight Correct.

On Feb 26, 4:12 am, Sanny wrote:

In below game Help Bot Sacrificed its Rook for a Knight.


Help bot is a terrible weak fish; everyone knows
that a Rook is worth more than a Knight!


As after some moves White Exchanged its double Pawn. Yes the king file
was Open. But still Rook is +2 points than a Knight.


Maybe help bot is worse than I thought. Maybe
even his follow-up was clumsy?


Why did Help Bot sacrificed Rook for just a Knight?


Maybe he just didn't see the Rook could be
captured?


was it a correct Move?


Perhaps. But these positional sacrifices are
much too difficult for weak players to attempt.
Better to stick to trading down to the endgame,
where even weak players like help bot can
easily outplay the GetClub program!


What were the wrong moves played by Easy Level that it lost in 57
Moves?


Too many to count. In order to lose to a very
weak player like help bot, it must have made a
whole slew of errors! Maybe Fritz can graph
the game, pinpointing the biggest blunders... .


-- Fritz bot


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Old February 26th 08, 04:11 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is sacrificing Rook for Knight Correct.

* Too many to count. *In order to lose to a very
weak player like help bot, it must have made a
whole slew of errors! *Maybe Fritz can graph
the game, pinpointing the biggest blunders... .


Yes, What was the biggest mistake with GetClub Game?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


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Old February 26th 08, 07:41 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Is sacrificing Rook for Knight Correct.

In message
,
Sanny writes
In below game Help Bot Sacrificed its Rook for a Knight.

Advantage of this Sacrifice.

1. King became Open as g2 Pawn was at f3.
2. Double pawns at f2 and f3.

But is this sacrifice Correct?


It was good enough compensation. Shredder sees it as roughly equal.

As after some moves White Exchanged its double Pawn. Yes the king file
was Open. But still Rook is +2 points than a Knight.


The king was hellishly exposed given the B,Q and B lined up to pounce!

11. Rf1-e1{36} Rf8-f3{20}
12. g2-f3{28} Nc6-d4{10}


The RxN g2xN sequence is basically OK. Black can do better than the move
played with something like 12. ... d5 12. cxd5 Nd4 14. Qd1 Qxd5
and I think equality.

BTW any chance you could modify Getclub so that it shows captures with
the conventional "x" notation instead of "-" it makes life easier for
humans!

24. Ne4-g5{26} Qh5-g5{60}


24. ... QxN was a bit optimistic and premature. BxN piles on the
pressure.

31. Rg5-e5{30} Re8-e5{12}


This is among the worst captures. Either of Bxe5 or bxc5 would hold onto
white advantage. And about half of all moves are better than Rxe5.

44. Qe3-e5{24} Qd5-e5{120}


QxB or Rb1 both look drawish (without looking too hard).

49. Bb2-e5{36} Be7-g5{70}


Getclub might still be able to hold the game with the surprising
49. Rxa3 BxR 50. BxB KxP opposite coloured bishops. It would probably
lose the endgame against a human but it is close because of where the
pawns would have to queen. Any endgame experts shed some light?

51. Ra1-c1{20} Bg5-c1{12}


Teasing the program with Bc1 ? Tut Tut. This is truly amazing. I cannot
see why a materialistic chess engine did not snatch your arm off here.
52. RxB and white is back in the game!

Why did Help Bot sacrificed Rook for just a Knight? was it a correct
Move?


A bit risky against a stronger opponent but it was by no means bad.

What were the wrong moves played by Easy Level that it lost in 57
Moves?


See above. It was offered a chance to win as late as the 52nd move.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

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Old February 27th 08, 09:29 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Posts: 5,365
Default Normal Defended Rybka till 48 Moves.

On Feb 27, 12:41*am, Martin Brown
wrote:
In message
,
Sanny writes

In below game Help Bot Sacrificed its Rook for a Knight.


Advantage of this Sacrifice.


1. King became Open as g2 Pawn was at f3.
2. Double pawns at f2 and f3.


But is this sacrifice Correct?


It was good enough compensation. Shredder sees it as roughly equal.



As after some moves White Exchanged its double Pawn. Yes the king file
was Open. But still Rook is +2 points than a Knight.


The king was hellishly exposed given the B,Q and B lined up to pounce!

11. Rf1-e1{36} Rf8-f3{20}
12. g2-f3{28} Nc6-d4{10}


The RxN g2xN sequence is basically OK. Black can do better than the move
played with something like 12. ... d5 12. cxd5 Nd4 14. Qd1 Qxd5
and I think equality.

BTW any chance you could modifyGetclubso that it shows captures with
the conventional "x" notation instead of "-" it makes life easier for
humans!

24. Ne4-g5{26} Qh5-g5{60}


24. ... QxN was a bit optimistic and premature. BxN piles on the
pressure.

31. Rg5-e5{30} Re8-e5{12}


This is among the worst captures. Either of Bxe5 or bxc5 would hold onto
white advantage. And about half of all moves are better than Rxe5.

44. Qe3-e5{24} Qd5-e5{120}


QxB or Rb1 both look drawish (without looking too hard).

49. Bb2-e5{36} Be7-g5{70}


Getclubmight still be able to hold the game with the surprising
49. Rxa3 BxR 50. BxB KxP opposite coloured bishops. It would probably
lose the endgame against a human but it is close because of where the
pawns would have to queen. Any endgame experts shed some light?

51. Ra1-c1{20} Bg5-c1{12}


Teasing the program with Bc1 ? Tut Tut. This is truly amazing. I cannot
see why a materialisticchessengine did not snatch your arm off here.
52. RxB *and white is back in the game!

Why did Help Bot sacrificed Rook for just a Knight? was it a correct
Move?


A bit risky against a stronger opponent but it was by no means bad.



What were the wrong moves played by Easy Level that it lost in 57
Moves?


See above. It was offered a chance to win as late as the 52nd move.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com


Today Game was further improved Now it will play better moves than
ever before. Normal was earlier able to defend till 40 moves only. But
after Improvement Normal Level defended Rybka till 48 Moves.

I think Master Level will Play as good as Rybka and may win in 1/3
Games against Rybka.

Here is the Game with Rybka. Please Analyze.

Game Played between sanjay11 and normal at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rybka: (White)
normal: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...338&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(Rybka) -- (normal)

1. e2-e4{2} e7-e5{0}
2. Ng1-f3{12} Nb8-c6{0}
3. Bf1-b5{16} a7-a6{0}
4. Bb5-a4{12} Ng8-f6{0}
5. Ke1-g1{14} Bf8-c5{188}
6. c2-c3{16} Nf6-e4{142}
7. Qd1-e2{16} f7-f5{154}
8. d2-d3{16} Bc5-f2{88}
9. Rf1-f2{22} Ne4-f2{116}
10. Bc1-g5{34} Nc6-e7{122}
11. Qe2-f2{22} e5-e4{190}
12. Nf3-d4{30} Ke8-g8{110}
13. Nd4-f5{74} e4-e3{102}
14. Qf2-f3{34} Rf8-f5{100}
15. Qf3-f5{30} Ne7-f5{112}
16. Bg5-d8{40} c7-c6{134}
17. Bd8-b6{20} d7-d6{88}
18. Nb1-a3{18} Bc8-e6{92}
19. Na3-c2{22} c6-c5{84}
20. Ra1-e1{20} Be6-a2{108}
21. Nc2-e3{22} Nf5-e7{314}
22. Bb6-c7{38} d6-d5{120}
23. Ne3-f1{20} Ne7-f5{182}
24. Re1-a1{28} b7-b5{166}
25. Ba4-c2{24} Ra8-e8{108}
26. Ra1-a2{16} Re8-e2{156}
27. Bc2-d1{28} Re2-e1{106}
28. Bd1-g4{16} Nf5-e3{136}
29. Kg1-f2{42} Re1-f1{118}
30. Kf2-e3{22} d5-d4{92}
31. c3-d4{18} c5-d4{140}
32. Ke3-d4{18} Rf1-f6{106}
33. Kd4-d5{20} h7-h6{118}
34. Bg4-e6{12} Kg8-h7{90}
35. Bc7-g3{22} g7-g5{118}
36. Ra2-a6{18} h6-h5{80}
37. Be6-g8{20} Kh7-g6{136}
38. Bg8-h7{18} Kg6-f7{106}
39. Ra6-f6{14} Kf7-f6{164}
40. Bg3-e5{14} Kf6-f7{98}
41. b2-b4{14} Kf7-e7{164}
42. d3-d4{16} g5-g4{172}
43. Bh7-f5{14} Ke7-f7{110}
44. Kd5-c6{14} Kf7-f8{86}
45. d4-d5{14} h5-h4{82}
46. Bf5-g4{38} Kf8-f7{134}
47. d5-d6{12} Kf7-g6{218}
48. d6-d7{236} h4-h3{146}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rybka: (White)
normal: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...338&game=Chess

This game there was lot of sacrifices from both sides. Rybka was able
to trap the Bishop of Normal Level So Normal level lost the game being
2 bishops down for 1 pawn.

With the new improvements Help Bot will find it much difficult to win
Easy Level. And Help Bot will always loose against Normal Level. It
would be very difficult for Help Bot to ever win the Normal Level;
which makes move in 1-2 min/move.

Heres the new Rating to all Levels.

Beginner: 1900 (5-10 sec/ move) It plays better than most of the good
players.
Easy: 2000 (20-40 sec/ move) It plays as Good as Help Bot.
Normal: 2100 (1-2 min/ move) It plays as good as Taylor Kingston.
Master: 2200 (5-10 min/ move) It plays as good as Rybka.

So which level can you win today?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html







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Old February 27th 08, 10:29 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Is sacrificing Rook for Knight Correct.

On Feb 26, 2:41 pm, Martin Brown
wrote:

In below game Help Bot Sacrificed its Rook for a Knight.


11. Rf1-e1{36} Rf8-f3{20}
12. g2-f3{28} Nc6-d4{10}


The RxN g2xN sequence is basically OK. Black can do better than the move
played with something like 12. ... d5 12. cxd5 Nd4 14. Qd1 Qxd5
and I think equality.


Hey, there can be no "equality" he one of us
two patzers is going down!



BTW any chance you could modify Getclub so that it shows captures with
the conventional "x" notation instead of "-" it makes life easier for
humans!


Humans? Who cares about /them/?


24. Ne4-g5{26} Qh5-g5{60}


24. ... QxN was a bit optimistic and premature. BxN piles on the
pressure.


I had several chances in this game to press the
attack-- all of which I fumbled. The exchange sac'
is perfectly playable... possibly even winning.

In particular, where I played 14. ...Qe8, it would have
been much better to play ...Qd7, and the threat of
....Bg4 poses serious trouble for White.

A bit later on, I had multiple opportunities to
regain the exchange-- all of which I missed
(I was still searching for my fumbled "attack").


31. Rg5-e5{30} Re8-e5{12}


This is among the worst captures. Either of Bxe5 or bxc5 would hold onto
white advantage. And about half of all moves are better than Rxe5.


I simply overlooked an in-between move:
31. ... cxb4, 32. Rxe8 Qg6+, where I would
win a pawn (although trading Queens was
not on my to-do list).


44. Qe3-e5{24} Qd5-e5{120}


QxB or Rb1 both look drawish (without looking too hard).

49. Bb2-e5{36} Be7-g5{70}


Getclub might still be able to hold the game with the surprising
49. Rxa3 BxR 50. BxB KxP opposite coloured bishops. It would probably
lose the endgame against a human but it is close because of where the
pawns would have to queen. Any endgame experts shed some light?



That would have resulted in a win for me, since
the stupid program will not move it's King out of
a corner in the endgame. However, theoretically
speaking it is very likely a draw since White's
King can reach the Queen's side first.


51. Ra1-c1{20} Bg5-c1{12}


Teasing the program with Bc1 ? Tut Tut.



Who was "Tut"? Never heard of him. Probably
a nobody, a lowly peon.


This is truly amazing. I cannot
see why a materialistic chess engine did not snatch your arm off here.
52. RxB and white is back in the game!



Sanny's notation gave Qc2-c1, as if the pawn
is promoted first, and only THEN advances to
the promotion square. In fact, I advanced the
pawn, then answered a questionaire saying I
preferred Queens. The program then captured
the Queen with its Rook-- on the square c1,
which I in turn captured with my Bishop.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.



What were the wrong moves played by Easy Level that it lost in 57
Moves?


See above. It was offered a chance to win as late as the 52nd move.


Not really.

The program did act as though it's QR were
glued to the square a1 for much of the early
part of the game. I wonder if it "thought" by
doing so, it maintained the option of castling
Queenside if the King ever made it back to
e1?

If I got this same opening position again, I
would play the very same sacrifice; but this
time, I would follow up a bit more thoughtfully.


-- help bot

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Old February 27th 08, 11:38 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Is sacrificing Rook for Knight Correct.

* The program did act as though it's QR were
glued to the square a1 for much of the early
part of the game. *I wonder if it "thought" by
doing so, it maintained the option of castling
Queenside if the King ever made it back to
e1?

* If I got this same opening position again, I
would play the very same sacrifice; but this
time, I would follow up a bit more thoughtfully.

* -- help bot


Remember this time play a bit strong game as the Game was improved
today and it will be very difficult to win the game if you sacrifice
the same way. This time you will need 70-80 Moves to Win the Easy
Level.

Everytime you play with Easy Level you will have to fight for 70-80
Moves then only you can win the game. And I doubt if you can ever win
the Normal Level.

You can win

Beginner Level in 60-65 Moves
Easy Level in 70-80 Moves.
Normal Level may be in 90-100 Moves.
Master Level - Never.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


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Old February 27th 08, 12:37 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
SBD SBD is offline
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Default Is sacrificing Rook for Knight Correct.

On Feb 27, 5:38*am, Sanny wrote:


You can win

Beginner Level in 60-65 Moves
Easy Level in 70-80 Moves.
Normal Level may be in 90-100 Moves.
Master Level - Never.


You are clueless.
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Old February 27th 08, 03:38 PM
Member
 
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Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanny View Post
The program did act as though it's QR were
glued to the square a1 for much of the early
part of the game. I wonder if it "thought" by
doing so, it maintained the option of castling
Queenside if the King ever made it back to
e1?

If I got this same opening position again, I
would play the very same sacrifice; but this
time, I would follow up a bit more thoughtfully.

-- help bot


Remember this time play a bit strong game as the Game was improved
today and it will be very difficult to win the game if you sacrifice
the same way. This time you will need 70-80 Moves to Win the Easy
Level.

Everytime you play with Easy Level you will have to fight for 70-80
Moves then only you can win the game. And I doubt if you can ever win
the Normal Level.

You can win

Beginner Level in 60-65 Moves
Easy Level in 70-80 Moves.
Normal Level may be in 90-100 Moves.
Master Level - Never.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Sanny,
http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...338&game=Chess

On the latest game, it doesn't look like the bishop sac was correct. GetClub Normal lost material as a result. The game was controlled from then on by Rybka.

Do you have a comments section at your site for each game that is posted? That would be a good idea for consolidation.

Gotta go.
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Old February 27th 08, 04:43 PM
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Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yearlypap08 View Post
Sanny,
http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...338&game=Chess

On the latest game, it doesn't look like the bishop sac was correct. GetClub Normal lost material as a result. The game was controlled from then on by Rybka.

Do you have a comments section at your site for each game that is posted? That would be a good idea for consolidation.

Gotta go.
(continued).

Sammy,

There is a freesource engine with codes that you can download called Spike 1.2 Turin which is over 100 ELO stronger than Crafty.

At CEGT the list shows that Spike 1.2 Turin is stronger than even Junior 10, for all the tested time controls:
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/

You can download all versions of Spike for free, and then analyze the codes and history to gain some ideas of how to make GetClub even stronger!

Take a look!
http://spike.lazypics.de/dl_index_en.html

example:
1.1
Spike should now be able to handle situations with imbalanced material better than before. The values of passed pawns are raised a bit, especially for outside passers. And, like in almost every version, some changes to the king-safety were done ;-)

In search we activated now futility-pruning. Beside this there were some hash-related bugfixes.
1.2
* increased searching depth by better selectivity
* more agressive playing style
* a plain position learning
* multi-pv-analyzemode is now supported
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Rybka No Rook Vs. Novag Star Sapphire No Rook Pawn [email protected] rec.games.chess.computer (Computer Chess) 5 April 30th 07 05:22 PM
analyzed game Antonio Torrecillas rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis) 17 January 30th 07 11:36 PM
knight for one rook, or queen for both? [email protected] rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis) 2 February 24th 06 06:44 PM


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