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Old May 1st 10, 05:02 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kasparov says Black is better in this position--do you agree?

After move 10. ..b4 Kasparov says 11.Bxa6?! is unsound because of (11.
Bxa6 Bxa6 12. axb4 Qc8 13. e4 Qg4 14.Rg1 Bb7 15. Be3)

Do you agree? Would you take White or Black here?

Fritz says White leads by a pawn (+1.06)

This is a teaching moment for r.g.c.m. who don't know what a "de
facto" pawn sacrifice is. You know who you are. Taylor. MikeMurray.
The Master. etc etc etc

Here is an example: Black is better in this position *** despite
being down a pawn (in points). This is essentially thus a pawn
sacrifice by Black.

RL

*** position:

r4rk1/pb2ppbp/2p2np1/8/1P1PP1q1/2N1BN2/1PQ2PPP/R3K1R1 b Q - 0 15

[Event "World Championship 10th"]
[Site "GER/AUT"]
[Date "1910.02.08"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Lasker, Emanuel"]
[Black "Schlechter, Carl"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D94"]
[PlyCount "141"]
[EventDate "1910.01.07"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "GER"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Bd3 O-O 7. Qc2 Na6
8. a3
dxc4 9. Bxc4 b5 10. Bd3 b4 11. Na4 (11. Bxa6 Bxa6 12. axb4 Qc8 13. e4
Qg4 14.
Rg1 Bb7 15. Be3) 11... bxa3 12. bxa3 Bb7 13. Rb1 Qc7 14. Ne5 Nh5 15.
g4 Bxe5
16. gxh5 Bg7 17. hxg6 hxg6 18. Qc4 Bc8 19. Rg1 Qa5+ 20. Bd2 Qd5 21.
Rc1 Bb7 22.
Qc2 Qh5 23. Bxg6 Qxh2 24. Rf1 fxg6 25. Qb3+ Rf7 26. Qxb7 Raf8 27. Qb3
Kh8 28.
f4 g5 29. Qd3 gxf4 30. exf4 Qh4+ 31. Ke2 Qh2+ 32. Rf2 Qh5+ 33. Rf3 Nc7
34. Rxc6
Nb5 35. Rc4 Rxf4 36. Bxf4 Rxf4 37. Rc8+ Bf8 38. Kf2 Qh2+ 39. Ke1 Qh1+
40. Rf1
Qh4+ 41. Kd2 Rxf1 42. Qxf1 Qxd4+ 43. Qd3 Qf2+ 44. Kd1 Nd6 45. Rc5 Bh6
46. Rd5
Kg8 47. Nc5 Qg1+ 48. Kc2 Qf2+ 49. Kb3 Bg7 50. Ne6 Qb2+ 51. Ka4 Kf7 52.
Nxg7
Qxg7 53. Qb3 Ke8 54. Qb8+ Kf7 55. Qxa7 Qg4+ 56. Qd4 Qd7+ 57. Kb3 Qb7+
58. Ka2
Qc6 59. Qd3 Ke6 60. Rg5 Kd7 61. Re5 Qg2+ 62. Re2 Qg4 63. Rd2 Qa4 64.
Qf5+ Kc7
65. Qc2+ Qxc2+ 66. Rxc2+ Kb7 67. Re2 Nc8 68. Kb3 Kc6 69. Rc2+ Kb7 70.
Kb4 Na7
71. Kc5 1-0

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Old May 1st 10, 07:58 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kasparov says Black is better in this position--do you agree?

On May 1, 12:02*pm, RayLopez99 wrote:
After move 10. ..b4 Kasparov says 11.Bxa6?! is unsound because of (11.
Bxa6 Bxa6 12. axb4 Qc8 13. e4 Qg4 14.Rg1 Bb7 15. Be3)


Eh? Where do you read that?? I presume you're quoting from "My Great
Predecessors, Part 1," page 179? If so, here's what GK says:

"There is no point in taking the pawn [by] 11.Bxa6?! Bxa6
12.bxa4 ... since now [i.e. in the position after 10...b4?! 11.Na4]
Black simply has a 'dead' knight at a6, a 'hole-ridden' queenside, and
a strategically lost position."

So GK does not say the line starting with 11.Bxa6 is unsound. He
says it is unnecessary, and that there is something better, namely the
text move, 11.Na4. Both Fritz8 and Rybka 3.1 (not to mention Lasker)
concur, rating 11.Na4 the #1 move.

Do you agree? *Would you take White or Black here?


You're talking about the position after 15.Be3 in GK's line of
analysis?

Fritz says White leads by a pawn (+1.06)


On my machine, after 15.Be3, Fritz8 says about +0.74. Rybka 3.1,
which is less materialistic, says about +0.33.

This is a teaching moment for r.g.c.m. who don't know what a "de
facto" pawn sacrifice is. *You know who you are. Taylor. *MikeMurray.
The Master. etc etc etc

Here is an example: *Black is better in this position *** despite
being down a pawn (in points).


Eh? Who says Black is better? You yourself report that Fritz, on
your machine, says White is better, not Black. On my machine Fritz
says the same thing. Also Rybka says White is better, though by a
smaller margin. And nowhere does Kasparov in MGP1, page 179, say Black
is better at that point.

This is essentially thus a pawn
sacrifice by Black.


Well of course. Who could argue with that? In the position after
15.Be3, Black /has/ lost a pawn. There's no "essentially" about it.
Black has given up an actual pawn. In our earlier discussion, the
issue was whether something involving no loss of a pawn should be
called a pawn sacrifice.

I'm sorry, Ray, but it's hard to make sense of your post here.

*** position:

r4rk1/pb2ppbp/2p2np1/8/1P1PP1q1/2N1BN2/1PQ2PPP/R3K1R1 b Q - 0 15


[Event "World Championship 10th"]
[Site "GER/AUT"]
[Date "1910.02.08"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Lasker, Emanuel"]
[Black "Schlechter, Carl"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D94"]
[PlyCount "141"]
[EventDate "1910.01.07"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "GER"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.07.01"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Bd3 O-O 7. Qc2 Na6
8. a3
dxc4 9. Bxc4 b5 10. Bd3 b4 11. Na4 (11. Bxa6 Bxa6 12. axb4 Qc8 13. e4
Qg4 14.
Rg1 Bb7 15. Be3) 11... bxa3 12. bxa3 Bb7 13. Rb1 Qc7 14. Ne5 Nh5 15.
g4 Bxe5
16. gxh5 Bg7 17. hxg6 hxg6 18. Qc4 Bc8 19. Rg1 Qa5+ 20. Bd2 Qd5 21.
Rc1 Bb7 22.
Qc2 Qh5 23. Bxg6 Qxh2 24. Rf1 fxg6 25. Qb3+ Rf7 26. Qxb7 Raf8 27. Qb3
Kh8 28.
f4 g5 29. Qd3 gxf4 30. exf4 Qh4+ 31. Ke2 Qh2+ 32. Rf2 Qh5+ 33. Rf3 Nc7
34. Rxc6
Nb5 35. Rc4 Rxf4 36. Bxf4 Rxf4 37. Rc8+ Bf8 38. Kf2 Qh2+ 39. Ke1 Qh1+
40. Rf1
Qh4+ 41. Kd2 Rxf1 42. Qxf1 Qxd4+ 43. Qd3 Qf2+ 44. Kd1 Nd6 45. Rc5 Bh6
46. Rd5
Kg8 47. Nc5 Qg1+ 48. Kc2 Qf2+ 49. Kb3 Bg7 50. Ne6 Qb2+ 51. Ka4 Kf7 52.
Nxg7
Qxg7 53. Qb3 Ke8 54. Qb8+ Kf7 55. Qxa7 Qg4+ 56. Qd4 Qd7+ 57. Kb3 Qb7+
58. Ka2
Qc6 59. Qd3 Ke6 60. Rg5 Kd7 61. Re5 Qg2+ 62. Re2 Qg4 63. Rd2 Qa4 64.
Qf5+ Kc7
65. Qc2+ Qxc2+ 66. Rxc2+ Kb7 67. Re2 Nc8 68. Kb3 Kc6 69. Rc2+ Kb7 70.
Kb4 Na7
71. Kc5 1-0


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Old May 2nd 10, 04:50 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kasparov says Black is better in this position--do you agree?

On May 1, 2:58*pm, Taylor Kingston
wrote:

* Well of course. Who could argue with that? In the position after
15.Be3, Black /has/ lost a pawn. There's no "essentially" about it.
Black has given up an actual pawn. In our earlier discussion, the
issue was whether something involving no loss of a pawn should be
called a pawn sacrifice.

* I'm sorry, Ray, but it's hard to make sense of your post here.


We're in violent agreement then. I'm glad you agree with my
terminology and assessment. I think Black is OK, like Rybka says.

RL
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Old May 2nd 10, 05:21 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kasparov says Black is better in this position--do you agree?

On May 2, 11:50*am, raylopez99 wrote:
On May 1, 2:58*pm, Taylor Kingston
wrote:

* Well of course. Who could argue with that? In the position after
15.Be3, Black /has/ lost a pawn. There's no "essentially" about it.
Black has given up an actual pawn. In our earlier discussion, the
issue was whether something involving no loss of a pawn should be
called a pawn sacrifice.


* I'm sorry, Ray, but it's hard to make sense of your post here.


We're in violent agreement then. *I'm glad you agree with my
terminology and assessment.


The areas of disagreement outnumber the areas of agreement. We
disagree on:

1. Your representation of Kasparov's assessment of the position
after 15.Be3.
2. Your claim that "Black is better" after 15.Be3.
3. Your claim that "this is a teaching moment for r.g.c.m. who don't
know what a 'de facto' pawn sacrifice is."

As far as terminology goes, this position is quite different from
the Sicilian lines we were arguing about earlier. You claimed that
those should be called "pawn sacrifices," and that "Black was down a
pawn in material," even though material was completely even. In
contrast, here after 11.Bxa6 Bxa6 12.axb4 Black has actually
sacrificed a pawn, and the folks you claim to be ignorant of that
myself, Murray, Kennedy etc. know that at a glance. So there is no
"teaching moment" in that regard for us, though it does seem to be
another moment of confusion for you.

*I think Black is OK, like Rybka says.


Rybka still rates the position after 15.Be3 as somewhat better for
White. This contradicts your claim that "Black is better." And nowhere
in the source you seem to be citing does Kasparov claim Black is
better. Kasparov is merely saying that White gains a greater advantage
if he does not take the pawn.

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Old May 2nd 10, 07:17 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kasparov says Black is better in this position--do you agree?

On May 2, 12:21*pm, Taylor Kingston
wrote:


We're in violent agreement then. *I'm glad you agree with my
terminology and assessment.


* The areas of disagreement outnumber the areas of agreement. We
disagree on:

* 1. Your representation of Kasparov's assessment of the position
after 15.Be3.


Yes, I misread it.

* 2. Your claim that "Black is better" after 15.Be3.


Yes, but I clearly meant White is better. That was a typo.

* 3. Your claim that "this is a teaching moment for r.g.c.m. who don't
know what a 'de facto' pawn sacrifice is."


My opinion. And it's backed by the facts (IMO).


* As far as terminology goes, this position is quite different from
the Sicilian lines we were arguing about earlier. You claimed that
those should be called "pawn sacrifices," and that "Black was down a
pawn in material," even though material was completely even. In
contrast, here after 11.Bxa6 Bxa6 12.axb4 Black has actually
sacrificed a pawn, and the folks you claim to be ignorant of that
myself, Murray, Kennedy etc. know that at a glance. So there is no
"teaching moment" in that regard for us, though it does seem to be
another moment of confusion for you.


No, that was clearly just opinion and flamebait, and you took it.


*I think Black is OK, like Rybka says.


* Rybka still rates the position after 15.Be3 as somewhat better for
White. This contradicts your claim that "Black is better." And nowhere
in the source you seem to be citing does Kasparov claim Black is
better. Kasparov is merely saying that White gains a greater advantage
if he does not take the pawn.


Fine. A minor quibble. But in general I'm more right than you TK.

RL


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Old May 2nd 10, 08:26 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kasparov says Black is better in this position--do you agree?

On May 2, 2:17*pm, raylopez99 wrote:
On May 2, 12:21*pm, Taylor Kingston
wrote:



We're in violent agreement then. *I'm glad you agree with my
terminology and assessment.


* The areas of disagreement outnumber the areas of agreement. We
disagree on:


* 1. Your representation of Kasparov's assessment of the position
after 15.Be3.


Yes, I misread it.


Ray admits an error?! As the drill sergeant in "Glory" said, "Now
you're learnin, boyo."

* 2. Your claim that "Black is better" after 15.Be3.


Yes, but I clearly meant White is better. *That was a typo.


You said "Black is better" twice, yet this "clearly meant" White is
better? You have a strange notion of clarity, Ray.

* 3. Your claim that "this is a teaching moment for r.g.c.m. who don't
know what a 'de facto' pawn sacrifice is."


My opinion. And it's backed by the facts (IMO).


Rrrriiight.

* As far as terminology goes, this position is quite different from
the Sicilian lines we were arguing about earlier. You claimed that
those should be called "pawn sacrifices," and that "Black was down a
pawn in material," even though material was completely even. In
contrast, here after 11.Bxa6 Bxa6 12.axb4 Black has actually
sacrificed a pawn, and the folks you claim to be ignorant of that
myself, Murray, Kennedy etc. know that at a glance. So there is no
"teaching moment" in that regard for us, though it does seem to be
another moment of confusion for you.


No, that was clearly just opinion and flamebait, and you took it.


Ray! You, a flamer?? Say it ain't so!

*I think Black is OK, like Rybka says.


* Rybka still rates the position after 15.Be3 as somewhat better for
White. This contradicts your claim that "Black is better." And nowhere
in the source you seem to be citing does Kasparov claim Black is
better. Kasparov is merely saying that White gains a greater advantage
if he does not take the pawn.


Fine. *A minor quibble.


Ray (to basketball star Shaquille O'Neal): "I'm taller than you."
Shaq: "No, you look to be at least a foot shorter."
Ray: "A minor quibble."

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Old May 2nd 10, 09:51 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc
sd sd is offline
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Default Kasparov says Black is better in this position--do you agree?

Ray Lopez, Internet dunderhead, spewed forth:

This is a teaching moment for r.g.c.m. who don't know what a "de
facto" pawn sacrifice is. *You know who you are. Taylor. *MikeMurray.
The Master. etc etc etc


The argument was about "essentially" a pawn sac, not a de facto, in
fact, pawn sacrifice.

What's really weird is that you revert to this "essentially" a pawn
sac later. The whole post is so confusing I don't see how you could
use it to represent anything other than your own muddled thinking.

If this is a joke, it is a really poorly executed one, and not
especially funny to boot. If it does represent your level of chess
thinking, you need a new hobby.


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Old May 3rd 10, 03:42 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,536
Default Kasparov says Black is better in this position--do you agree?

On May 2, 4:51*pm, sd wrote:

If this is a joke, it is a really poorly executed one, and not
especially funny to boot. If it does represent your level of chess
thinking, you need a new hobby.


No need to attack TK like that. We're all here to lern sd.

sd... or std?

RL
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