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Old June 27th 10, 11:07 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

A classic pseudo "underpromotion" theme--if white promotes the pawn,
white loses; otherwise white can draw with best play if it leaves its
pawn on the seventh rank.

What a problem like finish! And if I was "modest" like TK, I would
claim I played this game in correspondence, spending weeks on each
move. In fact, it was five minute blitz.

Another quality Mistake-Free (TM), Heirloom Chess (TM), Problem-like
Finish (TM) blitz game the whole family can enjoy.

RL

Position:

6K1/p6P/3kp3/1P6/2B1p3/2b1p3/8/8 w - - 0 50


Complete game:

[Event "Rated game, 5m + 0s"]
[Site "Main Playing Hall"]
[Date "2010.06.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "ali baba"]
[Black "Ray"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B55"]
[WhiteElo "1535"]
[BlackElo "1563"]
[PlyCount "132"]
[EventDate "2010.06.27"]

1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. Nxd4 d6 5. c3 Nf6 6. Bd3 g6 7. O-O
Bg7 8. Be3
O-O 9. Nd2 Ng4 10. N2f3 Nxe3 11. fxe3 Ne5 12. Nxe5 dxe5 13. Nf3 Qb6
14. Qe2 Bd7
15. b3 Bc6 16. Rad1 Rad8 17. Bc2 Rxd1 18. Rxd1 Rd8 19. Rxd8+ Qxd8 20.
c4 Qb6
21. Qd3 Qc7 22. a4 Kf8 23. b4 Qd7 24. b5 Qxd3 25. Bxd3 Bd7 26. Nd2 Ke8
27. Nb3
b6 28. c5 bxc5 29. Nxc5 Kd8 30. Kf2 Kc7 31. Kf3 h5 32. Bc4 e6 33. g4
hxg4+ 34.
Kxg4 Bf8 35. Nxd7 Kxd7 36. Kg5 Be7+ 37. Kh6 Bf8+ 38. Kh7 Be7 39. Kg8
f5 40. a5
Bc5 41. Kf7 fxe4 42. Kxg6 Bxe3 43. Kf6 Bd4 44. h4 e3 45. h5 e4+ 46.
Kf7 Kd6 47.
h6 Bc3 48. Kg8 Bxa5 49. h7 Bc3 50. h8=Q Bxh8 51. Kxh8 Kc5 52. Be2 Kd4
53. Kg7
Kc3 54. Kf6 Kd2 55. Bc4 e2 56. Bxe2 Kxe2 57. Kxe6 Kd3 58. Ke5 e3 59.
Kd6 e2 60.
Kc7 e1=Q 61. Kb7 Qb4 62. Kxa7 Qxb5 63. Ka8 Kd4 64. Ka7 Kd5 65. Ka8 Kc6
66. Ka7
Qb7# 0-1
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Old June 27th 10, 02:26 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

On Jun 27, 5:07*am, raylopez99 wrote:
A classic pseudo "underpromotion" theme--if white promotes the pawn,
white loses; otherwise white can draw with best play if it leaves its
pawn on the seventh rank.


It is not an underpromotion theme, which is why I suppose you put it
in parens... But why not call it a neater name, the "non-promotion"
theme, white draws only by keeping the threat of eventual promotion
alive without executing it. The threat being stronger than the
execution and what.....


What a problem like finish! *



For once, you used the term correctly. This looks worthy of study, and
might also make an interesting endgame study (properly massaged of
course for better introductory play) for Benko's column.

SBD

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Old June 27th 10, 03:59 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

On 27 June, 14:26, sd wrote:
On Jun 27, 5:07*am, raylopez99 wrote:

A classic pseudo "underpromotion" theme--if white promotes the pawn,
white loses; otherwise white can draw with best play if it leaves its
pawn on the seventh rank.


It is not an underpromotion theme, which is why I suppose you put it
in parens... But why not call it a neater name, the "non-promotion"
theme, white draws only by keeping the threat of eventual promotion
alive without executing it. The threat being stronger than the
execution and what.....


A straightforward example of that is 8/8/3kr3/4r3/3K1B2/8/8/8: White
is threatening to take the e5-rook; while Black defends the rook with
both pieces, capturing it would clearly be fatal, but by maintaining
the threat, White keeps Black tied down.
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Old June 27th 10, 04:09 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

On Jun 27, 9:26*am, sd wrote:
On Jun 27, 5:07*am, raylopez99 wrote:

A classic pseudo "underpromotion" theme--if white promotes the pawn,
white loses; otherwise white can draw with best play if it leaves its
pawn on the seventh rank.


It is not an underpromotion theme, which is why I suppose you put it
in parens... But why not call it a neater name, the "non-promotion"
theme, white draws only by keeping the threat of eventual promotion
alive without executing it. The threat being stronger than the
execution and what.....

This looks worthy of study, and
might also make an interesting endgame study (properly massaged of
course for better introductory play) for Benko's column.


Steve, since you declared this "worthy of study," I took a look at
this game. If you or Benko were to compose a study using the non-
promotion theme, I'd say "proper massaging for better introductory
play" would involve eliminating everything up to, say, move 50. To
that point the game was nothing but ineptitude by both sides. A few
lowlights:

A. White's 5.c3, a completely useless move.
B. White meekly allowing 9...Ng4 and 10...Nxe3, not only giving
Black the bishop pair but self-inflicting a doubled, isolated e-pawn.
C. Black's strategically incomprehensible play immediately after
that. Rather than, say, 11...d5 to open the position for his bishop
pair, or some other move that would keep the Bg7's diagonal open and
allow a minority attack, he plays 11...Ne5 12.Nxe5 dxe5, giving
himself a bad bishop.
D. Black missing 17... or 18...Qa5, winning a pawn.
E. Black allowing White to advance his Q-side majority unopposed
around moves 20-28.
F. Black's completely inept play around moves 34-42, allowing the
white king to penetrate the K-side and create a passed h-pawn, while
at the same time giving himself a useless tripled e-pawn.
G. White's useless 43.Kf6, when 43.h4 was close to winning.
H. White's terrible 48.Kg8??, giving up the a-pawn, when 48.a6!
threatening 49.b6+ should win. Sample lines after 48.a6:

8/p4K2/P2kp2P/1P6/2B1p3/2b1p3/8/8 b - - 0 48

a) 48...Bd4 (to prevent 49.b6) 49.h7 and:
a1) 49...Kc7 50.Kg8 Kb6 51.h8Q Bxh8 52.Kxh8 Kc5 53.Be2 Kb6 (if
53...Kd4?? 54.b6+) 54.Kg7+ and White will eventually gobble up all
Black's pawns and queen one of his own. Even if only the a-pawn is
left, this will be possible since the B is the right color.
a2) 49...Kc5 50.Be2 Bc3 51.Kg8 etc. as above.
b) 48...Kc5 49.Be2 Kb6 50.h7 etc. as above.
c) 48...Ba5 49.h7 Bc3 50.b6+.

48...e2 49.Bxe2 winds back into similar lines, and any other move
allows either b5-b6 or h6-h7-h8. Missing that opportunity, White then
proceeded to throw away the draw with 50.h8Q??, creating a position
even Ray could win.
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Old June 27th 10, 04:31 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

On 27 June, 16:09, Taylor Kingston
wrote:
On Jun 27, 9:26*am, sd wrote:

On Jun 27, 5:07*am, raylopez99 wrote:


A classic pseudo "underpromotion" theme--if white promotes the pawn,
white loses; otherwise white can draw with best play if it leaves its
pawn on the seventh rank.


It is not an underpromotion theme, which is why I suppose you put it
in parens... But why not call it a neater name, the "non-promotion"
theme, white draws only by keeping the threat of eventual promotion
alive without executing it. The threat being stronger than the
execution and what.....


This looks worthy of study, and
might also make an interesting endgame study (properly massaged of
course for better introductory play) for Benko's column.


* Steve, since you declared this "worthy of study," I took a look at
this game. If you or Benko were to compose a study using the non-
promotion theme, I'd say "proper massaging for better introductory
play" would involve eliminating everything up to, say, move 50. To
that point the game was nothing but ineptitude by both sides. A few
lowlights:

* A. White's 5.c3, a completely useless move.
* B. White meekly allowing 9...Ng4 and 10...Nxe3, not only giving
Black the bishop pair but self-inflicting a doubled, isolated e-pawn.
* C. Black's strategically incomprehensible play immediately after
that. Rather than, say, 11...d5 to open the position for his bishop
pair, or some other move that would keep the Bg7's diagonal open and
allow a minority attack, he plays 11...Ne5 12.Nxe5 dxe5, giving
himself a bad bishop.
* D. Black missing 17... or 18...Qa5, winning a pawn.
* E. Black allowing White to advance his Q-side majority unopposed
around moves 20-28.
* F. Black's completely inept play around moves 34-42, allowing the
white king to penetrate the K-side and create a passed h-pawn, while
at the same time giving himself a useless tripled e-pawn.
* G. White's useless 43.Kf6, when 43.h4 was close to winning.
* H. White's terrible 48.Kg8??, giving up the a-pawn, when 48.a6!
threatening 49.b6+ should win. Sample lines after 48.a6:

8/p4K2/P2kp2P/1P6/2B1p3/2b1p3/8/8 b - - 0 48

a) 48...Bd4 (to prevent 49.b6) 49.h7 and:
* a1) 49...Kc7 50.Kg8 Kb6 51.h8Q Bxh8 52.Kxh8 Kc5 53.Be2 Kb6 (if
53...Kd4?? 54.b6+) 54.Kg7+ and White will eventually gobble up all
Black's pawns and queen one of his own. Even if only the a-pawn is
left, this will be possible since the B is the right color.
* a2) 49...Kc5 50.Be2 Bc3 51.Kg8 etc. as above.
b) 48...Kc5 49.Be2 Kb6 50.h7 etc. as above.
c) 48...Ba5 49.h7 Bc3 50.b6+.

* 48...e2 49.Bxe2 winds back into similar lines, and any other move
allows either b5-b6 or h6-h7-h8. Missing that opportunity, White then
proceeded to throw away the draw with 50.h8Q??, creating a position
even Ray could win.


Only if his opponent lost consciousness, one might suggest....


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Old June 27th 10, 05:12 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

On Jun 27, 10:09*am, Taylor Kingston
wrote:

* Steve, since you declared this "worthy of study," I took a look at
this game. If you or Benko were to compose a study using the non-
promotion theme, I'd say "proper massaging for better introductory
play" would involve eliminating everything up to, say, move 50. To
that point the game was nothing but ineptitude by both sides. A few
lowlights:


Oh yes, the *game* was garbage, and everything before move 50 a major
howler. And yes of course I meant get to a position *like* move 50,
because even there there are multiple ways to draw, which would be
anathema to a study.

There would have to be some sparkling play before the move 50-type
position, too. All that could take the better part of a year to hammer
into something good enough to publish; Ray doesn't seem like the type
who would put in the hard work to do that, but since he finally put at
least one personal *position* worthy of study up, it seemed
appropriate to be positive about it rather than negative.

It was the *idea* not the game itself, that was worth looking into.

SBD
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Old June 27th 10, 08:13 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

On Jun 27, 6:09*pm, Taylor Kingston
wrote:
On Jun 27, 9:26*am, sd wrote:

On Jun 27, 5:07*am, raylopez99 wrote:


A classic pseudo "underpromotion" theme--if white promotes the pawn,
white loses; otherwise white can draw with best play if it leaves its
pawn on the seventh rank.


It is not an underpromotion theme, which is why I suppose you put it
in parens... But why not call it a neater name, the "non-promotion"
theme, white draws only by keeping the threat of eventual promotion
alive without executing it. The threat being stronger than the
execution and what.....


Right. And I think this is not uncommon, as per Andrew Bull's post.



This looks worthy of study, and
might also make an interesting endgame study (properly massaged of
course for better introductory play) for Benko's column.


* Steve, since you declared this "worthy of study," I took a look at
this game.


Right. And you broke your self-imposed ban on replies to my posts.
Like Frito Lay, "Betcha can't eat just one". Welcome back to the
sanitorium TK.

If you or Benko were to compose a study using the non-
promotion theme, I'd say "proper massaging for better introductory
play" would involve eliminating everything up to, say, move 50. To
that point the game was nothing but ineptitude by both sides. A few
lowlights:


Keeping in mind this is blitz...


* A. White's 5.c3, a completely useless move.


So? He was hoping I'd exchange N's. The Vienna Game is another
example of a "useless" (passive) opening.

* B. White meekly allowing 9...Ng4 and 10...Nxe3, not only giving
Black the bishop pair but self-inflicting a doubled, isolated e-pawn.


Yes, Ali Baba (from Turkey, we've played before he's about the same
strength as me) did not know how to play White in the Sicilian. But,
keep in mind if you try 9..Ng4 before castling, you can get burnt (as
I did once, playing a very strong player).

* C. Black's strategically incomprehensible play immediately after
that. Rather than, say, 11...d5 to open the position for his bishop
pair, or some other move that would keep the Bg7's diagonal open and
allow a minority attack, he plays 11...Ne5 12.Nxe5 dxe5, giving
himself a bad bishop.


Ah, grasshopper! You are very immature I see. Guess you don't play
much with fianchettoed dark squared bishops. THis is thematic. Trust
me, many masters play like this. And in fact, 11...Ne5 is RECOMMENDED
by Fritz! LOL TK you are a Howler Analyst (TM)!.

* D. Black missing 17... or 18...Qa5, winning a pawn.


Yes, I saw this afterwards. Blitz.

* E. Black allowing White to advance his Q-side majority unopposed
around moves 20-28.


Yes, my bad. But not fatal.

* F. Black's completely inept play around moves 34-42, allowing the
white king to penetrate the K-side and create a passed h-pawn, while
at the same time giving himself a useless tripled e-pawn.


Not really. Tripled pawns are strong. White made one mistake at move
48, which I see you caught.

* G. White's useless 43.Kf6, when 43.h4 was close to winning.
* H. White's terrible 48.Kg8??, giving up the a-pawn, when 48.a6!
threatening 49.b6+ should win. Sample lines after 48.a6:

8/p4K2/P2kp2P/1P6/2B1p3/2b1p3/8/8 b - - 0 48

a) 48...Bd4 (to prevent 49.b6) 49.h7 and:
* a1) 49...Kc7 50.Kg8 Kb6 51.h8Q Bxh8 52.Kxh8 Kc5 53.Be2 Kb6 (if
53...Kd4?? 54.b6+) 54.Kg7+ and White will eventually gobble up all
Black's pawns and queen one of his own. Even if only the a-pawn is
left, this will be possible since the B is the right color.
* a2) 49...Kc5 50.Be2 Bc3 51.Kg8 etc. as above.
b) 48...Kc5 49.Be2 Kb6 50.h7 etc. as above.
c) 48...Ba5 49.h7 Bc3 50.b6+.

* 48...e2 49.Bxe2 winds back into similar lines, and any other move
allows either b5-b6 or h6-h7-h8. Missing that opportunity, White then
proceeded to throw away the draw with 50.h8Q??, creating a position
even Ray could win.


Right. It was an instructive game, as you point out.

RL


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Old June 27th 10, 11:59 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

On Jun 27, 2:13*pm, raylopez99 wrote:
On Jun 27, 6:09*pm, Taylor Kingston
wrote:

On Jun 27, 9:26*am, sd wrote:


On Jun 27, 5:07*am, raylopez99 wrote:


A classic pseudo "underpromotion" theme--if white promotes the pawn,
white loses; otherwise white can draw with best play if it leaves its
pawn on the seventh rank.


It is not an underpromotion theme, which is why I suppose you put it
in parens... But why not call it a neater name, the "non-promotion"
theme, white draws only by keeping the threat of eventual promotion
alive without executing it. The threat being stronger than the
execution and what.....


Right. *And I think this is not uncommon, as per Andrew Bull's post.



This looks worthy of study, and
might also make an interesting endgame study (properly massaged of
course for better introductory play) for Benko's column.


* Steve, since you declared this "worthy of study," I took a look at
this game.


Right. And you broke your self-imposed ban on replies to my posts.



Well, that just makes me feel bad that I made Taylor go through that
crappy game with my recommendation. I was referring only to the idea
behind the FEN, not the horrific game which I stopped looking at after
the tenth mistake.

And no Ray, Andrew's example is nowhere near the idea I was
suggesting. I think he was using it as a general example. The idea I
was suggesting was when was it better not to promote a pawn? There is
a very good, endgame specific reason why not to promote.

And since composers tend to think in ideas, I wonder if there would be
times when pushing a pawn past the 6th rank would be a mistake (beyond
simplistic ones, of course). And so on.

Your subsequent comments made me realize you were just spouting back
engine analysis and didn't understand the intricacies of the position
beyond a 1200 level or so. Too bad, I thought you had made some
progress.

SBD
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Old June 28th 10, 12:04 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

On 27 June, 23:59, sd wrote:
On Jun 27, 2:13*pm, raylopez99 wrote:





On Jun 27, 6:09*pm, Taylor Kingston
wrote:


On Jun 27, 9:26*am, sd wrote:


On Jun 27, 5:07*am, raylopez99 wrote:


A classic pseudo "underpromotion" theme--if white promotes the pawn,
white loses; otherwise white can draw with best play if it leaves its
pawn on the seventh rank.


It is not an underpromotion theme, which is why I suppose you put it
in parens... But why not call it a neater name, the "non-promotion"
theme, white draws only by keeping the threat of eventual promotion
alive without executing it. The threat being stronger than the
execution and what.....


Right. *And I think this is not uncommon, as per Andrew Bull's post.


This looks worthy of study, and
might also make an interesting endgame study (properly massaged of
course for better introductory play) for Benko's column.


* Steve, since you declared this "worthy of study," I took a look at
this game.


Right. And you broke your self-imposed ban on replies to my posts.


Well, that just makes me feel bad that I made Taylor go through that
crappy game with my recommendation. I was referring only to the idea
behind the FEN, not the horrific game which I stopped looking at after
the tenth mistake.

And no Ray, Andrew's example is nowhere near the idea I was
suggesting. I think he was using it as a general example. The idea I
was suggesting was when was it better not to promote a pawn? There is
a very good, endgame specific reason why not to promote.

And since composers tend to think in ideas, I wonder if there would be
times when pushing a pawn past the 6th rank would be a mistake (beyond
simplistic ones, of course). And so on.

Your subsequent comments made me realize you were just spouting back
engine analysis and didn't understand the intricacies of the position
beyond a 1200 level or so. Too bad, I thought you had made some
progress.

SBD


Exactly, RL is a waste of time. Say it loud, and say it proud.

Do you have anything to suggest, a propos the inveterate troll?

MH
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Old June 28th 10, 03:40 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
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Posts: 3,536
Default White to promote pawn...and lose!

On Jun 28, 1:59*am, sd wrote:

Well, that just makes me feel bad that I made Taylor go through that
crappy game with my recommendation. I was referring only to the idea
behind the FEN, not the horrific game which I stopped looking at after
the tenth mistake.


Don't parrot TK's line sd--you're smarter than that.


And no Ray, Andrew's example is nowhere near the idea I was
suggesting. I think he was using it as a general example. The idea I
was suggesting was when was it better not to promote a pawn? There is
a very good, endgame specific reason why not to promote.


The answer was hinted at by Andrew (if you open your ears): 'the
threat is greater than the execution'. Keeping the pawn on the
seventh rank in the endgame will tie down the king to guarding the
enemy pawn. That's not so hard to figure out, once you see it.


And since composers tend to think in ideas, I wonder if there would be
times when pushing a pawn past the 6th rank would be a mistake (beyond
simplistic ones, of course). And so on.


Yes generally, if you cannot support it. But in this case, it also
ties down the enemy King.


Your subsequent comments made me realize you were just spouting back
engine analysis and didn't understand the intricacies of the position
beyond a 1200 level or so. Too bad, I thought you had made some
progress.


Let's be factual please. I am 1600 average (and have gone higher) at
Playchess. This translates to a Class A player in the real world.
What is your strength? I never bothered to ask (for good reason: you
hard ever contribute anything worthy of discussion here).

RL
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