Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old August 30th 11, 10:39 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,536
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why? r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3Rb - - 0 13

I am playing this below game now against my pocket Fritz on a PDA, and
I have a rule that I cannot take back a move nor receive machine
assistance. But I consider this an adjournment.

I took a peak at the PC evaluation function, and it shows me up nearly
a pawn. But I don't see how or why. I bet it involves a knight move
however.

My thoughts: Qf6 threatening to win the bishop or the f2 pawn. Then,
before or after this move, Nb4 and Nc4, which in certain lines will
win a pawn on e3, since the dark squared bishop moves to e3.

Note that White threatens to win material with Nxc6 but this is
refuted with capturing the N then Nb4.

Please don't tell me what your PC shows, since if I read it that would
be cheating (machine assistance). But just asking humans in my mind
is just thinking aloud, as your human companions could be wrong
(unless they are really strong players which none of you are).

RL

r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

[Event "22 s/move"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2011.08.30"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Pocket Fritz , 22 sec/m"]
[Black "Ray Lopez"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A20"]
[PlyCount "25"]
[SourceDate "2011.08.30"]

1. c4 Nf6 2. g3 e5 3. Bg2 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. Qa4+ c6 6. Nf3 Bd6 7. Nc3
Nb6 8.
Qc2 O-O 9. d4 exd4 10. Nxd4 Na6 11. Be4 g6 12. Bh6 Re8 13. O-O-O *
  #2   Report Post  
Old August 30th 11, 05:36 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2011
Posts: 1,329
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why?r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

On Aug 30, 2:39*am, raylopez99 wrote:
I am playing this below game now against my pocket Fritz on a PDA, and
I have a rule that I cannot take back a move nor receive machine
assistance. *But I consider this an adjournment.

I took a peak at the PC evaluation function, and it shows me up nearly
a pawn. *


No, it shows material as even. Both sides have six pawns, plus their
full complement of pieces.

What you see in the evaluation is that Fritz considers the position
as slightly better for Black.

  #3   Report Post  
Old August 30th 11, 06:36 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,536
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why?r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

On Aug 30, 11:36*pm, Taylor Kingston wrote:
On Aug 30, 2:39*am, raylopez99 wrote:

I am playing this below game now against my pocket Fritz on a PDA, and
I have a rule that I cannot take back a move nor receive machine
assistance. *But I consider this an adjournment.


I took a peak at the PC evaluation function, and it shows me up nearly
a pawn. *


* No, it shows material as even. Both sides have six pawns, plus their
full complement of pieces.

* What you see in the evaluation is that Fritz considers the position
as slightly better for Black.


Slightly better? Did you run it through your machine? I ran it
through my super fast Intel i5 machine at full throttle for a full
three minutes and the score was -0.97 in favor of Black. This
confused me--why? (I did not peak at the winning line, but I noticed
from the corner of my eye of the three lines only one line is clearly
favorable for Black, and I briefly thought I glanced and saw it was a
knight move possibly attacking the Queen with Nb4--but I was blurring
my eyes on purpose so I could not clearly make out the lines.)

Thus this post.

It would do wonders for my sanity to know that Rybka or some other
program rates this position as only a slight advantage for black--
since I'm going crazy trying to figure out how to win a pawn--my
thoughts as in the original post are that perhaps I can win a pawn on
the e-file maybe but nothing really dramatic.

BTW my tentative move is 1...Qf6 and only then the knight moves, but I
think it would transpose even if I made the knight move first. Still
I don't think I'll win a pawn equivalent in position, since the black
position is cramped (light square bishop not developed, black bishop
is sort of hanging). So why do both Pocket Fritz and Chessbase 11
(with a Fritz engine) give black such a overwhelming advantage? You
know that certain grandmasters will resign if behind a pawn with no
positional compensation. A pawn up is huge.

RL
  #4   Report Post  
Old August 30th 11, 08:42 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2011
Posts: 1,329
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why?r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

On Aug 30, 10:36*am, raylopez99 wrote:
On Aug 30, 11:36*pm, Taylor Kingston wrote:

On Aug 30, 2:39*am, raylopez99 wrote:


I am playing this below game now against my pocket Fritz on a PDA, and
I have a rule that I cannot take back a move nor receive machine
assistance. *But I consider this an adjournment.


I took a peak at the PC evaluation function, and it shows me up nearly
a pawn. *


* No, it shows material as even. Both sides have six pawns, plus their
full complement of pieces.


* What you see in the evaluation is that Fritz considers the position
as slightly better for Black.


Slightly better? *Did you run it through your machine? *I ran it
through my super fast Intel i5 machine at full throttle for a full
three minutes and the score was -0.97 in favor of Black.


Evaluations by Rybka 3 and Fritz 8 on my machine were less emphatic,
about -0.65 and -0.35 respectively.

It would do wonders for my sanity to know that Rybka or some other
program rates this position as only a slight advantage for black--
since I'm going crazy trying to figure out how to win a pawn--


But the engines are not saying Black can win a pawn. They are just
saying that certain factors in the position perhaps better
development, or space, pawn structure, king safety or whatever
compute out to some extent in Black's favor within the horizon the
program is able to examine.
I don't know very much about these engines' evaluation algorithms.
But the way they work is to assign a numeric value to various
imbalances. For example, in the opening array their is obvious
complete equality except for one thing: White has the move. When Rybka
is allowed to chew for a while on this position, it comes up with an
evaluation of about +0.10. So it seems that Rybka is programmed to
rate having the right to move as worth about one-tenth of a pawn. In
other positions, the right to move plus nine other imbalances of +0.10
each could add up to an evaluation of +1.00, even when material is
dead even.
But that is not a /material/ imbalance. It simply reflects the fact
that the program works only in numerical terms. The +1.00 evaluation
no more equals a pawn than a rock weighing 200 lbs. equals a man
weighing 200 lbs. The rock and the man are two very different things,
they just weigh the same.

So why do both Pocket Fritz and Chessbase 11
(with a Fritz engine) give black such a overwhelming advantage? *


-0.35 to -0.65 is hardly overwhelming. Even -0.97 is not
"overwhelming." But to get a proper answer to your question, you'd
have to consult the engine's programmer(s).

You
know that certain grandmasters will resign if behind a pawn with no
positional compensation. A pawn up is huge.


Only if things are otherwise equal, and if it is a /real/ pawn with
the potential to be promoted, not some transient, hypothetical
evaluation.
  #5   Report Post  
Old August 31st 11, 02:32 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,146
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why?r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

On Aug 30, 5:39*am, raylopez99 wrote:

I am playing this below game now against my pocket Fritz



Precisely. This is why the rules of chess clearly state that a
game is
'between two players.' (Not beause the chessboard is usually located
there.)


on a PDA, and I have a rule



Where do you have it? In your pea-sized brain, or scribbled down on
a piece
of scrap paper, perhaps?


that I cannot take back a move nor receive machine assistance. *But I consider this an
adjournment.



Good. Then you won't mind if I 'upload' Rybka's analysis via
bluetooth to your
opponent, while misleading you with bad advice (i.e.: memorize
openings by rote,
don't study tactics, ignore the endgame, etc.).


I took a peak at the PC evaluation function, and it shows me up nearly
a pawn. *But I don't see how or why. *I bet it involves a knight move
however.

My thoughts: *Qf6 threatening to win the bishop or the f2 pawn. *Then,
before or after this move, Nb4 and Nc4, which in certain lines will
win a pawn on e3, since the dark squared bishop moves to e3.

Note that White threatens to win material with Nxc6 but this is
refuted with capturing the N then Nb4.

Please don't tell me what your PC shows, since if I read it that would
be cheating (machine assistance).



Indeed it would. But of course you probably have a 'rule' in your
pea-brain
which allows you to do whatever you like, while restricting your
opponent
strictly to his own resources.


*But just asking humans in my mind is just thinking aloud, as your human
companions could be wrong



This kind of 'thinking,' --if that is quite the word-- could come in
mighty handy
at a tournament, like say the World Open, particularly if your
'companions' were
very strong players and you didn't mind winning OPM (Other People's
Money).


(unless they are really strong players which none of you are).



Good point. Although weak players like yourself can sometimes be
aided by
the advice of other weak players --for even a blind squirrel finds an
acorn now
and then-- it is wiser to rely upon the analysis of such pundits as
Rybka, Fritz
or Hiarcs. These siliconoid analysts have the advantage of complete
objectivity,
in addition to their superior speed and accuracy.

In my opinion White erred in playing d4. The d-pawn belongs on d3,
and the
correct strategy of course is the classic minority attack, beginning
with a3 and
then b4. But it could be said that your stubborn persistence in
aiming at a
quick and easy mating attack at least reveals that you are familiar
with the
ultimate goal: that of checkmating the enemy King, removing his head,
sticking
it on the end of a pike and parading around town, displaying your
manliness to
your countless inferiors. This my friend is how real power is
maintained.


  #6   Report Post  
Old August 31st 11, 06:13 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,536
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why?r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

On Aug 31, 2:42*am, Taylor Kingston wrote:
On Aug 30, 10:36*am, raylopez99 wrote:



So why do both Pocket Fritz and Chessbase 11
(with a Fritz engine) give black such a overwhelming advantage? *


* -0.35 to -0.65 is hardly overwhelming. Even -0.97 is not
"overwhelming." But to get a proper answer to your question, you'd
have to consult the engine's programmer(s).


Thanks, but I've never seen such a big difference in search engines
(-0.35 to -0.65 or -0.97) before; perhaps the position is incredibly
unbalanced, with threats to everything. In any event I plan to play
1.Qf6.

BTW, TheMinor--indeed the move by white: d4? was out of book and
premature, as you suggested.

RL
  #7   Report Post  
Old August 31st 11, 09:22 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,146
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why?r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

On Aug 30, 1:36*pm, raylopez99 wrote:


It would do wonders for my sanity to know that Rybka or some other
program rates this position as only a slight advantage for black--
since I'm going crazy trying to figure out how to win a pawn--my
thoughts as in the original post are that perhaps I can win a pawn on
the e-file maybe but nothing really dramatic.



Frankly, I doubt that any amount of chess analysis would be of much
use in repairing your sanity, but I will be happy to explain any
subtleties of the position which you --and your pal, Taylor
Spellington -- find impossible to comprehend.


BTW my tentative move is 1...Qf6 and only then the knight moves, but I
think it would transpose even if I made the knight move first. *Still
I don't think I'll win a pawn equivalent in position, since the black
position is cramped (light square bishop not developed, black bishop
is sort of hanging). *So why do both Pocket Fritz and Chessbase 11
(with a Fritz engine) give black such a overwhelming advantage? *



This is a forcing position, and the eval of chess engines reflects
what each of them has determined to be 'best play' for both sides,
many plys deep. Let's start with Black's first move: 13. ... Nb4.
This move forces White to clumsily retreat his Queen to b1, and of
course what we humans perceive as clumsiness the engines convert into
numbers in the form of a position score. Now having compelled a
retreat, it is once again Black to move: 14. ... N6-d5. Once again we
see that White is inconvenienced, as now Black seems to threaten
something like ...Nxc3-- a move which would break up White's pawn
structure. This simply won't do so White replies 15. Bxd5, giving
Black an isolani (that's chess jargon, Phillip). Black
replies ...cxd5, opening the c-file to later 'say hello' to White's
King with his Rook. This also creates a nifty (i.e. centralized)
retreat square for the Knight at c6. White chases away the annoying
steed with 16. a3 -- a move which is generally frowned upon because
moving a home pawn, that is one of the pawn in front of your King,
creates opportunities for attack by the opponent. But White could not
leave his Queen on b1 forever, and soon a black Rook will come to
occupy the c-file-- staring down with nasty intentions at the white
monarch. Black replies with ...Nc6, and we now have a position where
it is possible to 'interpret' the numerical edge shown by the engine.

I am currently showing an advantage of 0.77 for Black, and I will
attempt to explain what this means. First, you should know that
engines are programmed to give a hefty bonus for retaining the Bishop
pair-- that is, one Bishop on the dark squares and one on the light.
As you can see, Black retains the pair of Bishops while White does
not-- which accounts for a considerable amount of the 0.77 advantage.
It also happens that in this position Black's Rook on e8 attack's a
few more squares than does White's Rook on d1, the target pawn being
somewhat farther away, and having two Bishops also adds to the total
'mobility' score, as Knights simply have shorter legs than do Bishops
(count 'em up). Now it is likely that Fritz and other such engines
see much farther in their analyses than where I happen to have
stopped, but the results would be similar all the same. Black does
have an isolani but Rybka seems to be unconcerned by this 'weakness'
and more focused on the fact of the clumsy Queen position and open
lines to White's exposed King. And don't forget about the moved home
pawn, the pawn on a3-- this could very well allow Black to *forcibly*
open lines of attack later on, just as White could forcibly open the h-
file (except where Black plays ...Bh3) if he could somehow hold
everything together elsewhere. Anyway, I believe the answer to your
befuddlement lies in the combination of Bishop-pair bonus and the
clumsy positioning of White's pieces-- which will require time and
effort to disentangle.

I will continue to let this run and update you if there are any
dramatic changes in the position score. There is no need to contact
the engineers or programmers-- it is simple enough to figure out if
you engage your mind and put down your French spelling book. Besides,
the programmers of Rybka --ever since the bruhaha regarding plagiarism
of code-- are incommunicado. Where's that? You go South from San
Diego for fifty miles and then right for another fifteen miles, then
cast anchor.
  #8   Report Post  
Old August 31st 11, 05:54 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,536
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why?r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

On Aug 31, 3:22*pm, The Master wrote:
On Aug 30, 1:36*pm, raylopez99 wrote:

It would do wonders for my sanity to know that Rybka or some other
program rates this position as only a slight advantage for black--
since I'm going crazy trying to figure out how to win a pawn--my
thoughts as in the original post are that perhaps I can win a pawn on
the e-file maybe but nothing really dramatic.


* Frankly, I doubt that any amount of chess analysis would be of much
use in repairing your sanity, but I will be happy to explain any
subtleties of the position which you --and your pal, Taylor
Spellington -- find impossible to comprehend.

BTW my tentative move is 1...Qf6 and only then the knight moves, but I
think it would transpose even if I made the knight move first. *Still
I don't think I'll win a pawn equivalent in position, since the black
position is cramped (light square bishop not developed, black bishop
is sort of hanging). *So why do both Pocket Fritz and Chessbase 11
(with a Fritz engine) give black such a overwhelming advantage? *


* This is a forcing position, and the eval of chess engines reflects
what each of them has determined to be 'best play' for both sides,
many plys deep. *Let's start with Black's first move: *13. ... Nb4.


That's not my first move, and I'm playing Black: 13...Qf6 is my first
move. But I see it is refuted by 14. Nf3, so let's proceed with your
move.


This move forces White to clumsily retreat his Queen to b1, and of
course what we humans perceive as clumsiness the engines convert into
numbers in the form of a position score. *Now having compelled a
retreat, it is once again Black to move: 14. ... N6-d5. *Once again we
see that White is inconvenienced, as now Black seems to threaten
something like ...Nxc3-- a move which would break up White's pawn
structure. *This simply won't do so White replies 15. Bxd5, giving
Black an isolani (that's chess jargon, Phillip). *Black
replies ...cxd5, opening the c-file to later 'say hello' to White's
King with his Rook. *


You can also take with the knight and avoid the isolani, but I take it
you want the C-file open. OK then, let's proceed as you wish.

This also creates a nifty (i.e. centralized)
retreat square for the Knight at c6. * White chases away the annoying
steed with 16. a3 -- a move which is generally frowned upon because
moving a home pawn, that is one of the pawn in front of your King,
creates opportunities for attack by the opponent. *But White could not
leave his Queen on b1 forever, and soon a black Rook will come to
occupy the c-file-- staring down with nasty intentions at the white
monarch. *Black replies with ...Nc6, and we now have a position where
it is possible to 'interpret' the numerical edge shown by the engine.

* I am currently showing an advantage of 0.77 for Black, and I will
attempt to explain what this means. *First, you should know that
engines are programmed to give a hefty bonus for retaining the Bishop
pair-- that is, one Bishop on the dark squares and one on the light.
As you can see, Black retains the pair of Bishops while White does
not-- which accounts for a considerable amount of the 0.77 advantage.
It also happens that in this position Black's Rook on e8 attack's a
few more squares than does White's Rook on d1, the target pawn being
somewhat farther away, and having two Bishops also adds to the total
'mobility' score, as Knights simply have shorter legs than do Bishops
(count 'em up). *Now it is likely that Fritz and other such engines
see much farther in their analyses than where I happen to have
stopped, but the results would be similar all the same. *Black does
have an isolani but Rybka seems to be unconcerned by this 'weakness'
and more focused on the fact of the clumsy Queen position and open
lines to White's exposed King. *And don't forget about the moved home
pawn, the pawn on a3-- this could very well allow Black to *forcibly*
open lines of attack later on, just as White could forcibly open the h-
file (except where Black plays ...Bh3)


Ah, that's why my PC likes Bh3 in certain lines, to avoid the K-side
pawn storm.

if he could somehow hold
everything together elsewhere. *Anyway, I believe the answer to your
befuddlement lies in the combination of Bishop-pair bonus and the
clumsy positioning of White's pieces-- which will require time and
effort to disentangle.

* I will continue to let this run and update you if there are any
dramatic changes in the position score. *There is no need to contact
the engineers or programmers-- it is simple enough to figure out if
you engage your mind and put down your French spelling book. *Besides,
the programmers of Rybka --ever since the bruhaha regarding plagiarism
of code-- are incommunicado. *Where's that? *You go South from San
Diego for fifty miles and then right for another fifteen miles, then
cast anchor.


I see. Well my friend I 'lerned' something from you in this thread--
you're not as dumb as you appear to be. But I still cannot believe
that this position: r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/2nb2pB/3p4/3N4/P1N3P1/1P2PP1P/
1QKR3R w - - 0 17

is rated a full pawn in favor of Black! i'VE NEVer (sorry I hit the
CAPS key) seen such a large positional advantage for such an equal
looking position! This is a very weird position and I've been playing
chess for close to two decades!

!!!

Can you convert the +1.0 to a winning score for black? Tell you what--
you play black and I'll play white. Or rather, anybody can jump in
and play white or black..is there an "auto-play" option where we can
play this position 1000 times and see what the scores are, and if in
fact Black ends up ahead?

I say this is some sort of freak chess position that's an artifact of
computer play, a chimera or mirage and not really winning for black.

RL
  #9   Report Post  
Old September 1st 11, 03:39 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,536
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why?r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

On Aug 31, 11:54*pm, raylopez99 wrote:
On Aug 31, 3:22*pm, The Master wrote:



* This is a forcing position, and the eval of chess engines reflects
what each of them has determined to be 'best play' for both sides,
many plys deep. *Let's start with Black's first move: *13. ... Nb4.


That's not my first move, and I'm playing Black: *13...Qf6 is my first
move. *But I see it is refuted by 14. Nf3, so let's proceed with your
move.


Ironically after 13...Nb4, letting my PC run for a while shows that
14...Qf6 is a good move--so it does not transpose! Such is chess,
sometimes move order does make a difference.

RL
  #10   Report Post  
Old September 1st 11, 04:11 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.analysis
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,146
Default My computer says I'm winning a pawn here, why?r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/nnpb2pB/8/3NB3/2N3P1/PPQ1PP1P/2KR3R b - - 0 13

On Aug 31, 12:54*pm, raylopez99 wrote:

* This is a forcing position, and the eval of chess engines reflects
what each of them has determined to be 'best play' for both sides,
many plys deep. *Let's start with Black's first move: *13. ... Nb4.


That's not my first move, and I'm playing Black: *13...Qf6 is my first
move. *But I see it is refuted by 14. Nf3, so let's proceed with your
move.



My OTB move would probably be to blunder a piece or a pawn. I was
discussinging *Rybka's* analysis.


This move forces White to clumsily retreat his Queen to b1, and of
course what we humans perceive as clumsiness the engines convert into
numbers in the form of a position score. *Now having compelled a
retreat, it is once again Black to move: 14. ... N6-d5. *Once again we
see that White is inconvenienced, as now Black seems to threaten
something like ...Nxc3-- a move which would break up White's pawn
structure. *This simply won't do so White replies 15. Bxd5, giving
Black an isolani (that's chess jargon, Phillip). *Black
replies ...cxd5, opening the c-file to later 'say hello' to White's
King with his Rook. *


You can also take with the knight and avoid the isolani, but I take it
you want the C-file open. OK then, let's proceed as you wish.



Well actually, it is Rybka who desires to open lines. I generally
avoid that sort of thing, as it often leads to me hanging something or
overlooking a killer Queen move.


This also creates a nifty (i.e. centralized)
retreat square for the Knight at c6. * White chases away the annoying
steed with 16. a3 -- a move which is generally frowned upon because
moving a home pawn, that is one of the pawn in front of your King,
creates opportunities for attack by the opponent. *But White could not
leave his Queen on b1 forever, and soon a black Rook will come to
occupy the c-file-- staring down with nasty intentions at the white
monarch. *Black replies with ...Nc6, and we now have a position where
it is possible to 'interpret' the numerical edge shown by the engine.


* I am currently showing an advantage of 0.77 for Black, and I will
attempt to explain what this means. *First, you should know that
engines are programmed to give a hefty bonus for retaining the Bishop
pair-- that is, one Bishop on the dark squares and one on the light.
As you can see, Black retains the pair of Bishops while White does
not-- which accounts for a considerable amount of the 0.77 advantage.
It also happens that in this position Black's Rook on e8 attack's a
few more squares than does White's Rook on d1, the target pawn being
somewhat farther away, and having two Bishops also adds to the total
'mobility' score, as Knights simply have shorter legs than do Bishops
(count 'em up). *Now it is likely that Fritz and other such engines
see much farther in their analyses than where I happen to have
stopped, but the results would be similar all the same. *Black does
have an isolani but Rybka seems to be unconcerned by this 'weakness'
and more focused on the fact of the clumsy Queen position and open
lines to White's exposed King. *And don't forget about the moved home
pawn, the pawn on a3-- this could very well allow Black to *forcibly*
open lines of attack later on, just as White could forcibly open the h-
file (except where Black plays ...Bh3)


Ah, that's why my PC likes Bh3 in certain lines, to avoid the K-side
pawn storm.



Either that, or else Fritz just likes 'aggressive' moves (i.e.
invading enemy territory) and connecting its Rooks.


* I will continue to let this run and update you if there are any
dramatic changes in the position score. *There is no need to contact
the engineers or programmers-- it is simple enough to figure out if
you engage your mind and put down your French spelling book. *Besides,
the programmers of Rybka --ever since the bruhaha regarding plagiarism
of code-- are incommunicado. *Where's that? *You go South from San
Diego for fifty miles and then right for another fifteen miles, then
cast anchor.


I see. *Well my friend I 'lerned' something from you in this thread--
you're not as dumb as you appear to be. *



Once again, this is a side-effect of my frequently posting in the
same threads as such 'luminaries' as yourself, Taylor Kingston and
Sanny. In contrast to such as these, I may *appear* to be very smart
indeed, but this is merely an illusion. Were I posting alongside
say, Shakespeare, Newton and Confucious, I would likely appear to be
as dim-witted as Sanny or Kingston.


But I still cannot believe
that this position: r1bqr1k1/pp3p1p/2nb2pB/3p4/3N4/P1N3P1/1P2PP1P/
1QKR3R w - - 0 17

is rated a full pawn in favor of Black! *i'VE NEVer (sorry I hit the
CAPS key) seen such a large positional advantage for such an equal
looking position! *This is a very weird position and I've been playing
chess for close to two decades!



I seriously expected Taylor Spellington with his usual stubborness
to insist that it was not a forcing situation, suggesting the
alternative move for White of Qb3. So I was ready with Rybka's
refutation, but alas he seems to have disappeared-- perhaps realizing
my vast superiority (that is, in having Rybka 4.1). Perhaps he is
still searching for Incommunicado, south of the border.


Can you convert the +1.0 to a winning score for black? *Tell you what--
you play black and I'll play white. *Or rather, anybody can jump in
and play white or black..is there an "auto-play" option where we can
play this position 1000 times and see what the scores are, and if in
fact Black ends up ahead?

I say this is some sort of freak chess position that's an artifact of
computer play, a chimera or mirage and not really winning for black.



Which exact position is it that you believe is not ~ +1 for Black?

I have to warn you that in the past, I have taken positions far
worse and 'saved' them by having the superior engine play the inferior
side. In one case an older version of Rybka converted a clearly lost
position into an equal Rook ending, and I stopped rather than continue
for fifty or so more moves until the inferior engine blundered and
lost what had become a clearly drawable position for both sides. I
believe I had some old version of Fritz playing the winning side!

Yes, there is an auto-play type feature where the computer can play
some position out a thousand times or more at very fast time controls,
tallying the results. It's called Monte Carlo analysis and I have it
somewhere, but rarely use it. The problem is that very fast time
controls lead to shallow analysis, which in turn leads to poor play
and that leads to the tallying up of results which may not mean much,
apart from who wins most at bullet-chess from a given position.
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
An interesting post from ChessForums.org Offramp rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 7 June 24th 11 01:44 AM
The Blue Book of Charts to Winning Chess samsloan rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 12 January 20th 11 02:46 AM
ruy lopez exchange variation ironmarshal rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis) 63 December 4th 05 05:58 PM
Looking for comments Adam Maloney rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis) 7 November 4th 05 04:44 PM
Please check this out Richard rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis) 9 October 25th 05 05:48 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:47 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Chess"

 

Copyright © 2017