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Old November 5th 12, 01:09 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Knight and multiple pawn ending - I can't find the draw

This position occurred in a game between Ivan Farago and Momcilo Raicevic at Balatonbereny (Hungary) in 1984.

8/5p2/8/5kp1/3K3P/p1N2P2/7P/8 b - - 0 1

It is from a endgame collection and comes under the heading "The weaker side draws".

Can anyone find a drawing line for black?

Ciao,
Chappy.
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Old November 6th 12, 01:23 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Knight and multiple pawn ending - I can't find the draw

On 06/11/2012 11:53, Andy Walker wrote:
On 05/11/12 14:36, Martin Brown wrote:
On 05/11/2012 13:09, wrote:

[...]
8/5p2/8/5kp1/3K3P/p1N2P2/7P/8 b - - 0 1

[...]
Can anyone find a drawing line for black?

I think it goes something like
1. ... g4 2. f4 Kg6 3. Ke5 Kh5 4. f5 Kxh4


In this line, 5 Kf6 Kh3 6 Kg5 f6+ Kh5 wins easily.


I can't see the win after 6. ... f6+ 7. Kh5 Kxh2 8. Kxg4
What am I missing?

Although I had in mind the forced line
6. ... g3 7. hxg3 Kxg3 8. f6 Kf3
where it becomes a race to queen that I think is equal.

8/5p2/8/5PK1/8/p1N3k1/8/8 w - - 0 8

At this point the position is inside the horizon for 6 men tablesbases
although I lack the relevant ones on my machine.

The game finished 2 Ke3 gxf3 3 Kxf3 Kg6 4 Kg3 =; I wonder
if Farago missed 2 f4 Kxf4 3 Nd5+, changing the guard on
the a-pawn with 4 Kc3? White can get in h5, protected by
Nf4, when playing ... f5, Kxf4 and g3 is too slow, so White
just wins.

Black has to play very accurately or else lose.


I can't find a saving line. I haven't found any
GM/IM analysis -- I expect there may be some in "Informant",
if nowhere else, but my copies are hiding somewhere.


Anyone with 6 men tablebases care to run it through a fast engine?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
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Old November 6th 12, 04:45 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Knight and multiple pawn ending - I can't find the draw

On 06/11/12 13:23, Martin Brown wrote:
8/5p2/8/5kp1/3K3P/p1N2P2/7P/8 b - - 0 1
1. ... g4 2. f4 Kg6 3. Ke5 Kh5 4. f5 Kxh4

In this line, 5 Kf6 Kh3 6 Kg5 f6+ Kh5 wins easily.

I can't see the win after 6. ... f6+ 7. Kh5 Kxh2 8. Kxg4
What am I missing?


Oh. Nothing. I assumed that bringing the BK over
to the Q-side was too slow, and even when I counted I managed
to have the N already on a2, which saves a vital tempo.

Mea culpa!

Although I had in mind the forced line
6. ... g3 7. hxg3 Kxg3 8. f6 Kf3
where it becomes a race to queen that I think is equal.


Comes to the same thing.

--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.


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Old November 7th 12, 03:35 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Knight and multiple pawn ending - I can't find the draw

On Wednesday, 7 November 2012 00:45:22 UTC+8, Andy Walker wrote:
On 06/11/12 13:23, Martin Brown wrote: 8/5p2/8/5kp1/3K3P/p1N2P2/7P/8 b - - 0 1 1. ... g4 2. f4 Kg6 3. Ke5 Kh5 4. f5 Kxh4 In this line, 5 Kf6 Kh3 6 Kg5 f6+ Kh5 wins easily. I can't see the win after 6. ... f6+ 7. Kh5 Kxh2 8. Kxg4 What am I missing? Oh. Nothing. I assumed that bringing the BK over to the Q-side was too slow, and even when I counted I managed to have the N already on a2, which saves a vital tempo. Mea culpa! Although I had in mind the forced line 6. ... g3 7. hxg3 Kxg3 8. f6 Kf3 where it becomes a race to queen that I think is equal. Comes to the same thing. -- Andy Walker, Nottingham.


Thanks for your analysis. Very interesting.

I spent most of my time looking at 1. ... gxh4 (because it was Chess Master 9000's preference), but black loses after 2. Ke3 h3 as pointed out by Martin.

After 1 ... g4, CM9k prefers 2. Ke3 even though after 2. ... gxf3 3. Kxf3 Kg6 white can't make any progress (as per the game continuation). Where did you find the complete game, BTW?

After 1. ... g4 2. f4 Kg6 3. Ke5 Kh5 4. f5 Kxh4 5. Kf6 Kh3 6. Kg5 f6+ 7. Kh5 Kxh2 8. Kxg4 the Nalimov 6-piece database reports that both 8. ... Kg2 and 8. ... Kg1 draw.

Thanks for taking an interest.

Ciao,
Chappy.
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Old November 8th 12, 10:58 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Knight and multiple pawn ending - I can't find the draw

On 06/11/2012 16:45, Andy Walker wrote:
On 06/11/12 13:23, Martin Brown wrote:
8/5p2/8/5kp1/3K3P/p1N2P2/7P/8 b - - 0 1
1. ... g4 2. f4 Kg6 3. Ke5 Kh5 4. f5 Kxh4
In this line, 5 Kf6 Kh3 6 Kg5 f6+ Kh5 wins easily.

I can't see the win after 6. ... f6+ 7. Kh5 Kxh2 8. Kxg4
What am I missing?


Oh. Nothing. I assumed that bringing the BK over
to the Q-side was too slow, and even when I counted I managed
to have the N already on a2, which saves a vital tempo.

Mea culpa!


That's a relief. I know I am a bit weak on pawn endgames and tend to get
fixated on an illusory win in a drawn position. Or miss something.

Although I had in mind the forced line
6. ... g3 7. hxg3 Kxg3 8. f6 Kf3
where it becomes a race to queen that I think is equal.


Comes to the same thing.


I think an engine armed with 6-men tablebases would probably be able to
more or less prove it completely with an 8-10 ply search.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
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Old November 8th 12, 10:59 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis
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Default Knight and multiple pawn ending - I can't find the draw

On 07/11/2012 15:35, wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 November 2012 00:45:22 UTC+8, Andy Walker wrote:
On 06/11/12 13:23, Martin Brown wrote: 8/5p2/8/5kp1/3K3P/p1N2P2/7P/8 b - - 0 1 1. ... g4 2. f4 Kg6 3. Ke5 Kh5 4. f5 Kxh4 In this line, 5 Kf6 Kh3 6 Kg5 f6+ Kh5 wins easily. I can't see the win after 6. ... f6+ 7. Kh5 Kxh2 8. Kxg4 What am I missing? Oh. Nothing. I assumed that bringing the BK over to the Q-side was too slow, and even when I counted I managed to have the N already on a2, which saves a vital tempo. Mea culpa! Although I had in mind the forced line 6. ... g3 7. hxg3 Kxg3 8. f6 Kf3 where it becomes a race to queen that I think is equal. Comes to the same thing. -- Andy Walker, Nottingham.


Thanks for your analysis. Very interesting.

I spent most of my time looking at 1. ... gxh4 (because it was Chess Master 9000's preference), but black loses after 2. Ke3 h3 as pointed out by Martin.

After 1 ... g4, CM9k prefers 2. Ke3 even though after 2. ... gxf3 3. Kxf3 Kg6 white can't make any progress (as per the game continuation). Where did you find the complete game, BTW?

After 1. ... g4 2. f4 Kg6 3. Ke5 Kh5 4. f5 Kxh4 5. Kf6 Kh3 6. Kg5 f6+ 7. Kh5 Kxh2 8. Kxg4 the Nalimov 6-piece database reports that both 8. ... Kg2 and 8. ... Kg1 draw.

Thanks for taking an interest.


That's OK. Interesting puzzle.
SO nice to see an on topic post for a change!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
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