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Old March 4th 04, 10:47 AM
Bjoern
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

I will probably soon have to play a game with black against someone who plays
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 against the Scandinavian. In particular he
seems to love ideas involving an early b2-b4, e.g. 4...c6 5.Bg2 Bf5 6.b4 or
4...Nf6 5.Bg2 g6 6.b4. Usually he seems to put his king's knight to e2
(Ng1-e2), so presumably he would also play something like 4...Nf6 5.Bg2 c6
6.Nge2 Bf5 7.b4 (Ng1-f3 would definitely make b2-b4 ideas less feasible, as it
blocks the h1-b7 diagonal), the only annotations about that are by GM Carsten
Müller, who seems to think that white has a small advantage.

I assume after white has played b2-b4 it would not be such a good idea to play
...Qxb4, as after Ra1-b1xb7 my queenside pawnstructure would be weak, or could
this sometimes be acceptable?
E.g. what about 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 g6 6.b4 Qxb4
7.Rb1 Qd6 8.Rxb7
(I'd say that I would be fine after 8.Bxb7 Bxb7 9.Rxb7, as his strong bishop
would have been eliminated), what do you think about that position? Or is
retreating to c7 with 6...Qc7 preferable, even if it is passive and white will
sooner or later play b4-b5?

Or should one play extremely cautiously with 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5
4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 c6 6.Nge2 g6, that way I have avoided b2-b4 ideas for a while?
In fact GM Wahls seems to think this position is okay for black giving 7.h3
Bg7 8.d3 0-0 9.Be3 Nd5 10.Bd2 Qc7 11.Qc1 (11.Bxd5 cxd5 12.Nxd5 Qd6 "with
compensation" - Wahls) 11...Rd8 with equality.
On the other hand I fear that 5...c6 + 6...g6 might be somewhat passive with
little influence on the centre for white, after all there must be a good
reason, why Curt Hansen after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 g6
6.Nge2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.d3 gives the move 8...c5! an exlamation mark. Clearly I
wouldn't have such options (or if I play it later I would be missing a tempo,
which may or may not be important) if I have already played 5...c6.

Considering the "8.c5!" idea given by Curt Hansen, what about playing 4...Nf6
5.Bg2 c5!?, which would also avoid b2-b4 ideas. It looks a bit odd and I'm not
sure whether it's a decent move or not.

Does anyone have some experience with this variation or any opinions on it?
I'd like to hear any thoughts on this (although "don't play the Scandinavian"
wouldn't be particularly helpful).

Thanks,
Björn
  #2   Report Post  
Old March 4th 04, 08:23 PM
Sandy Breon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

Bjoern,

I have played the Scandinavian some. I have never seen the 4.g3 line.
Without looking at the theory, my gut feeling tells me that it may have some
surprise value, however, you should be able to equalize as Black. Otherwise
this line would be played much more often.

Sandy


"Bjoern" wrote in message
...
I will probably soon have to play a game with black against someone who

plays
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 against the Scandinavian. In particular

he
seems to love ideas involving an early b2-b4, e.g. 4...c6 5.Bg2 Bf5 6.b4

or
4...Nf6 5.Bg2 g6 6.b4. Usually he seems to put his king's knight to e2
(Ng1-e2), so presumably he would also play something like 4...Nf6 5.Bg2 c6
6.Nge2 Bf5 7.b4 (Ng1-f3 would definitely make b2-b4 ideas less feasible,

as it
blocks the h1-b7 diagonal), the only annotations about that are by GM

Carsten
Müller, who seems to think that white has a small advantage.

I assume after white has played b2-b4 it would not be such a good idea to

play
..Qxb4, as after Ra1-b1xb7 my queenside pawnstructure would be weak, or

could
this sometimes be acceptable?
E.g. what about 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 g6 6.b4 Qxb4
7.Rb1 Qd6 8.Rxb7
(I'd say that I would be fine after 8.Bxb7 Bxb7 9.Rxb7, as his strong

bishop
would have been eliminated), what do you think about that position? Or is
retreating to c7 with 6...Qc7 preferable, even if it is passive and white

will
sooner or later play b4-b5?

Or should one play extremely cautiously with 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5
4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 c6 6.Nge2 g6, that way I have avoided b2-b4 ideas for a

while?
In fact GM Wahls seems to think this position is okay for black giving

7.h3
Bg7 8.d3 0-0 9.Be3 Nd5 10.Bd2 Qc7 11.Qc1 (11.Bxd5 cxd5 12.Nxd5 Qd6 "with
compensation" - Wahls) 11...Rd8 with equality.
On the other hand I fear that 5...c6 + 6...g6 might be somewhat passive

with
little influence on the centre for white, after all there must be a good
reason, why Curt Hansen after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2

g6
6.Nge2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.d3 gives the move 8...c5! an exlamation mark.

Clearly I
wouldn't have such options (or if I play it later I would be missing a

tempo,
which may or may not be important) if I have already played 5...c6.

Considering the "8.c5!" idea given by Curt Hansen, what about playing

4...Nf6
5.Bg2 c5!?, which would also avoid b2-b4 ideas. It looks a bit odd and I'm

not
sure whether it's a decent move or not.

Does anyone have some experience with this variation or any opinions on

it?
I'd like to hear any thoughts on this (although "don't play the

Scandinavian"
wouldn't be particularly helpful).

Thanks,
Björn



  #3   Report Post  
Old March 5th 04, 01:06 AM
Bjoern
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

In article , "Sandy Breon" wrote:
Bjoern,

I have played the Scandinavian some. I have never seen the 4.g3 line.
Without looking at the theory, my gut feeling tells me that it may have some
surprise value, however, you should be able to equalize as Black. Otherwise
this line would be played much more often.

Sandy


Well, I'm playing the Scandinavian a lot and indeed the 4.g3 line is rather
rare, however I'm not so sure that it reflects on the quality of the move - a
lot of other variations are just much more exciting (and hence the sort of
thing 1.e4 players are more likely to feel attracted to), while 4.g3 is
primarily positional. White doesn't try very hard to punish black for losing a
tempo, but on the other hand it's also less clear what black should do, while
white has several relatively obvious ideas (b2-b4 possibly prepared by
playing Rab1, Nf3-d2-c4 ideas and also f2-f4 ideas).
I've only ever played against this variation once in a full-length game, which
I was somehwat lucky to win, since then and even more so after looking at
ideas with an early b2-b4 I have quite a bit of respect for this line.

--Björn
  #4   Report Post  
Old March 5th 04, 04:12 AM
JJNeet1
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

I play the Center Counter, and the French.I've never met g3 aginst it.The
worst move I've seen someone play is:1e4 d5 2.d3??. Also 1.e4 d5 2.e5....

Jon Neet
  #5   Report Post  
Old March 5th 04, 10:59 PM
Sandy Breon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

To punish this line, my suggestion, which I admit is a cop out, is to run
the line through Fritz or Chessmaster or equivalent chess program. If it
were me playing, I would probably develop normally with the thought of
castling kingside and having good escape squares for your queen.

Sandy


"Bjoern" wrote in message
...
In article , "Sandy Breon"

wrote:
Bjoern,

I have played the Scandinavian some. I have never seen the 4.g3 line.
Without looking at the theory, my gut feeling tells me that it may have

some
surprise value, however, you should be able to equalize as Black.

Otherwise
this line would be played much more often.

Sandy


Well, I'm playing the Scandinavian a lot and indeed the 4.g3 line is

rather
rare, however I'm not so sure that it reflects on the quality of the

move - a
lot of other variations are just much more exciting (and hence the sort of
thing 1.e4 players are more likely to feel attracted to), while 4.g3 is
primarily positional. White doesn't try very hard to punish black for

losing a
tempo, but on the other hand it's also less clear what black should do,

while
white has several relatively obvious ideas (b2-b4 possibly prepared by
playing Rab1, Nf3-d2-c4 ideas and also f2-f4 ideas).
I've only ever played against this variation once in a full-length game,

which
I was somehwat lucky to win, since then and even more so after looking at
ideas with an early b2-b4 I have quite a bit of respect for this line.

--Björn





  #6   Report Post  
Old March 6th 04, 11:16 AM
John Simmons
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

Hello,

Your resources seem more uptodate than mine. However one suggestion from
Emms book is 4.... nf6 5.bg2 e5 played in a blitz game of Anand v Ivanchuk
95. This continued

6nge2 bd6 7.0.0 0.0 8.d4 nc6 9. bg5 e*d4 etc. Also considered 8. d3 c6 9Bg5
or 9f4?! In other games 8. d5 has been played, but black seems ok.
Your 5 ...c5 looks reasonable too.

Bye John S
"Bjoern" wrote in message
...
I will probably soon have to play a game with black against someone who

plays
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 against the Scandinavian. In particular

he
seems to love ideas involving an early b2-b4, e.g. 4...c6 5.Bg2 Bf5 6.b4

or
4...Nf6 5.Bg2 g6 6.b4. Usually he seems to put his king's knight to e2
(Ng1-e2), so presumably he would also play something like 4...Nf6 5.Bg2 c6
6.Nge2 Bf5 7.b4 (Ng1-f3 would definitely make b2-b4 ideas less feasible,

as it
blocks the h1-b7 diagonal), the only annotations about that are by GM

Carsten
Müller, who seems to think that white has a small advantage.

I assume after white has played b2-b4 it would not be such a good idea to

play
..Qxb4, as after Ra1-b1xb7 my queenside pawnstructure would be weak, or

could
this sometimes be acceptable?
E.g. what about 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 g6 6.b4 Qxb4
7.Rb1 Qd6 8.Rxb7
(I'd say that I would be fine after 8.Bxb7 Bxb7 9.Rxb7, as his strong

bishop
would have been eliminated), what do you think about that position? Or is
retreating to c7 with 6...Qc7 preferable, even if it is passive and white

will
sooner or later play b4-b5?

Or should one play extremely cautiously with 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5
4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 c6 6.Nge2 g6, that way I have avoided b2-b4 ideas for a

while?
In fact GM Wahls seems to think this position is okay for black giving

7.h3
Bg7 8.d3 0-0 9.Be3 Nd5 10.Bd2 Qc7 11.Qc1 (11.Bxd5 cxd5 12.Nxd5 Qd6 "with
compensation" - Wahls) 11...Rd8 with equality.
On the other hand I fear that 5...c6 + 6...g6 might be somewhat passive

with
little influence on the centre for white, after all there must be a good
reason, why Curt Hansen after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2

g6
6.Nge2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.d3 gives the move 8...c5! an exlamation mark.

Clearly I
wouldn't have such options (or if I play it later I would be missing a

tempo,
which may or may not be important) if I have already played 5...c6.

Considering the "8.c5!" idea given by Curt Hansen, what about playing

4...Nf6
5.Bg2 c5!?, which would also avoid b2-b4 ideas. It looks a bit odd and I'm

not
sure whether it's a decent move or not.

Does anyone have some experience with this variation or any opinions on

it?
I'd like to hear any thoughts on this (although "don't play the

Scandinavian"
wouldn't be particularly helpful).

Thanks,
Björn



  #7   Report Post  
Old March 6th 04, 05:13 PM
Bjoern
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

I agree that black has to castle to his kingside, but the main problem is
really what plan black should adopt and sadly chess programs are not
particularly useful for that as the position is rather non tactical. As I said
I only ever played against this variation in a long game once, but I
definitely lacked a plan then

[Event "LEM 2003"]
[Site "Lütjenburg"]
[Date "2003.10.08"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Koch, Sören"]
[Black "Holzhauer, Björn"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B01"]
[WhiteElo "1929"]
[BlackElo "1944"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. g3 c6 5. Bg2 Nf6 6. d3 Bf5 7. Nf3 e6 8.
O-O
Nbd7 9. Qe1 Be7 10. Nd2 O-O 11. Nc4 Qd8 12. Ne4 Nb6 13. Na5 Qc8 14. Bg5 Nbd7
15. Nc4 Qc7 16. Bd2 Rad8 17. Bb4 c5 18. Bd2 Nd5 19. Nc3 N7f6 20. a3 b6 21. Qe5
Qxe5 22. Nxe5 Bd6 23. Nc6 Rd7 24. Nb5 Bb8 25. Rfe1 h6 26. h3 a6 27. Nxb8 Rxb8
28. Nc3 Nxc3 29. Bxc3 Nd5 30. Be5 Rc8 31. g4 Bg6 32. Bg3 c4 33. dxc4 Rxc4 34.
c3 b5 35. Rad1 Bc2 36. Rd2 Bb3 37. Bf1 Rc8 38. f4 Nb6 39. Rxd7 Nxd7 40. Bg2
Nc5
41. Re2 Rd8 42. Kh2 Rd1 43. Bf2 Bc4 44. Re1 $2 Rxe1 45. Bxe1 Nd3 46. Bd2 Nxb2
47. Kg3 Kf8 48. Kf2 Ke7 49. Ke3 Kd6 50. Kd4 Na4 51. Bc1 Nc5 52. Bb2 Nd3 53.
Ba1
Nxf4 54. Bb7 a5 0-1

I suspect white was probably even winning around move 35 and eventually
blundered the game away (most importantly by playing 44.Re1?). On the other
hand white's play didn't really seem to follow a good plan, either, a lot of
the time. I sort of like the idea (for white that is) of pushing the b-pawn
like in the following game:

[Event "Dos Hermanas op"]
[Site "Dos Hermanas"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Vallejo Pons, Francisco"]
[Black "Linan Baena, Jeronimo"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B01"]
[WhiteElo "2415"]
[EventDate "1998.04.17"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. g3 Nf6 5. Bg2 g6 6. Nge2 c6 7. Rb1 Bg7 8.
b4 Qd8 9. O-O O-O 10. d3 Be6 11. h3 Nd5 12. Ne4 Nf6 13. Nxf6+ Bxf6 14. c4 Bf5
15. Rb3 e5 16. g4 Bc8 17. f4 Nd7 18. Ba3 exf4 19. b5 c5 20. Nxf4 Bd4+ 21. Kh1
Ne5 22. Qe1 Re8 23. Qg3 Rb8 24. Nd5 Nd7 25. Bb2 Kg7 26. Bxd4+ cxd4 27. Qf4 f6
28. Qxd4 1-0

Possibly not the most convincing example, but it also shows the idea that
white will usually get to play b2-b4, because it can be prepared by Ra1-b1,
while it's really difficult to find a plan as black.

--Björn

In article , "Sandy Breon"
wrote:
To punish this line, my suggestion, which I admit is a cop out, is to run
the line through Fritz or Chessmaster or equivalent chess program. If it
were me playing, I would probably develop normally with the thought of
castling kingside and having good escape squares for your queen.

Sandy


"Bjoern" wrote in message
...
In article , "Sandy Breon"

wrote:
Bjoern,

I have played the Scandinavian some. I have never seen the 4.g3 line.
Without looking at the theory, my gut feeling tells me that it may have

some
surprise value, however, you should be able to equalize as Black.

Otherwise
this line would be played much more often.

Sandy


Well, I'm playing the Scandinavian a lot and indeed the 4.g3 line is

rather
rare, however I'm not so sure that it reflects on the quality of the

move - a
lot of other variations are just much more exciting (and hence the sort of
thing 1.e4 players are more likely to feel attracted to), while 4.g3 is
primarily positional. White doesn't try very hard to punish black for

losing a
tempo, but on the other hand it's also less clear what black should do,

while
white has several relatively obvious ideas (b2-b4 possibly prepared by
playing Rab1, Nf3-d2-c4 ideas and also f2-f4 ideas).
I've only ever played against this variation once in a full-length game,

which
I was somehwat lucky to win, since then and even more so after looking at
ideas with an early b2-b4 I have quite a bit of respect for this line.

--Björn



  #8   Report Post  
Old March 6th 04, 05:15 PM
Bjoern
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

Thanks for that comment, I've looked up this line in the book by Wahls and he
seems to think it's dubious to play 5…e5. He even awards the move a "?!" and
calls it "pseudo-active", but I'm not entirely sure how convincing his
arguments about that are. His reasoning is that it gives white the option to
open the position with d2-d4 or f2-f4 at a time of his choosing. Wahls does
prefer the mentioned 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 e5 6.Nge2
Bd6 7.0-0 0-0 8.d3 c6 9.f4 idea and gives that move an exclamation mark,
giving the line 9.f4! exf4 10.Nxf4 Bg4 11.Qd2 and which point he stops and
comments that black has to be careful about white playing 12.h3 or 12.Ncd5 -
whatever that means… I suppose that it's a bit difficult to say what black is
supposed to do with his bishop after e.g. 11…Qb6+ 12.Kh1 Re8 13.h3, on the
other hand I can hardly believe that black's position can be overly
problematic.
Wahls claims that instead of 9.f4"!" the move 9.Bg5 is just "weak", he also
says that 8.d4 does give black easy equality (as in that Anand - Ivanchuk
game). I suppose 5…e5 might well be worth another look.

--Björn

In article , "John Simmons"
wrote:
Hello,

Your resources seem more uptodate than mine. However one suggestion from
Emms book is 4.... nf6 5.bg2 e5 played in a blitz game of Anand v Ivanchuk
95. This continued

6nge2 bd6 7.0.0 0.0 8.d4 nc6 9. bg5 e*d4 etc. Also considered 8. d3 c6 9Bg5
or 9f4?! In other games 8. d5 has been played, but black seems ok.
Your 5 ...c5 looks reasonable too.

Bye John S
"Bjoern" wrote in message
...
I will probably soon have to play a game with black against someone who

plays
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 against the Scandinavian. In particular

he
seems to love ideas involving an early b2-b4, e.g. 4...c6 5.Bg2 Bf5 6.b4

or
4...Nf6 5.Bg2 g6 6.b4. Usually he seems to put his king's knight to e2
(Ng1-e2), so presumably he would also play something like 4...Nf6 5.Bg2 c6
6.Nge2 Bf5 7.b4 (Ng1-f3 would definitely make b2-b4 ideas less feasible,

as it
blocks the h1-b7 diagonal), the only annotations about that are by GM

Carsten
Müller, who seems to think that white has a small advantage.

I assume after white has played b2-b4 it would not be such a good idea to

play
..Qxb4, as after Ra1-b1xb7 my queenside pawnstructure would be weak, or

could
this sometimes be acceptable?
E.g. what about 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 g6 6.b4 Qxb4
7.Rb1 Qd6 8.Rxb7
(I'd say that I would be fine after 8.Bxb7 Bxb7 9.Rxb7, as his strong

bishop
would have been eliminated), what do you think about that position? Or is
retreating to c7 with 6...Qc7 preferable, even if it is passive and white

will
sooner or later play b4-b5?

Or should one play extremely cautiously with 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5
4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2 c6 6.Nge2 g6, that way I have avoided b2-b4 ideas for a

while?
In fact GM Wahls seems to think this position is okay for black giving

7.h3
Bg7 8.d3 0-0 9.Be3 Nd5 10.Bd2 Qc7 11.Qc1 (11.Bxd5 cxd5 12.Nxd5 Qd6 "with
compensation" - Wahls) 11...Rd8 with equality.
On the other hand I fear that 5...c6 + 6...g6 might be somewhat passive

with
little influence on the centre for white, after all there must be a good
reason, why Curt Hansen after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Dxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.g3 Nf6 5.Bg2

g6
6.Nge2 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.d3 gives the move 8...c5! an exlamation mark.

Clearly I
wouldn't have such options (or if I play it later I would be missing a

tempo,
which may or may not be important) if I have already played 5...c6.

Considering the "8.c5!" idea given by Curt Hansen, what about playing

4...Nf6
5.Bg2 c5!?, which would also avoid b2-b4 ideas. It looks a bit odd and I'm

not
sure whether it's a decent move or not.

Does anyone have some experience with this variation or any opinions on

it?
I'd like to hear any thoughts on this (although "don't play the

Scandinavian"
wouldn't be particularly helpful).

Thanks,
Björn



  #9   Report Post  
Old March 6th 04, 06:50 PM
Fred Galvin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

On 5 Mar 2004, JJNeet1 wrote:

I play the Center Counter, and the French.I've never met g3
aginst it.The worst move I've seen someone play is:1e4 d5 2.d3??.


You've never seen anyone play 2.d4?

  #10   Report Post  
Old March 6th 04, 09:48 PM
JJNeet1
 
Posts: n/a
Default Scandinavian with 4.g3

You've never seen anyone play 2.d4?

Actually, no.But I have played 1.d4 d5 2.e4 as black, which is the same
obviously.

Jon Neet
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