Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old August 1st 04, 06:08 PM
Antonio Torrecillas
 
Posts: n/a
Default My game.

Hola,

Yo intuyo que el sacrificio es innecesario y no obtiene suficiente
compensación.

Pienso que además de la extraña jugada 21.Da4 debe haber más de una
forma de obtener una posición sana con blancas (y más de un momento para
ello entre las jugadas 19, 20 y 21). Lo que es claro es que 3 errores
consecutivos llevan a posición perdedora.

AT

En/na HoeHue ha escrit:

Hi. I'm a lower class club player. However this yer I'm going to play a
few classes higher, so I have to do something;-) Now I'm looking at some
of my games and stepped over the following one. I'd llike to know your
thoughts on it, especially about the scrifice. Thanks.

[Black "Me"]

1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.g3
Hier wird i.d.R. O-O gespielt. Mir scheint es aber durchaus sinnvoll,
die weitere Entwicklung der Partie abzuwarten, und sich die Möglichkeit
offen zu halten, lang oder auch überhauptnicht zu rochieren.
4...d6 5.Bg2
Auch hier wieder ist die Rochadede der mit Abstand am häufigsten
gespielte Zug.
5...c5 6.O-O
Auch hier verweigere ich mich der an dieser Stelle häufiger gespielten
Rochade und leite, wie mir bei der späteren Analyse bewußt wird, in eine
Variante der Hauptlinieder symetriischen englischen Eröffnung über.
6...Nc6 7.a3
Ich habe 11 Partien auf Meisterniveau in meiner Datenbank gefunden, die
diese Stellung erreichten. Alle rochieren hier!
7...a5 8.d3 Rb8
Die Schußlinie des Bg2 verlassen, den bg2 nochmal gegen die eventuell
später eintretende Bedrohung des Bg2 absichern und einen eventuellen
Vorstoß des Bb2 vorbereiten.
9.h3? Bd7? 10.e3 Qc8
Wieso nicht gleich am Königsflügel angreifen?
11.Kh2
( 11.h4 )
11...h5 12.Qc2 Ng4+ 13.Kh1
( 13.hxg4? hxg4+ 14.Kg1 gxf3 15.Bxf3 )
13...Nge5 14.Ng1 Bf5 15.e4 Nd4 16.Qd1 Bg4 17.f3 Ndxf3
...


  #2   Report Post  
Old August 1st 04, 07:10 PM
HoeHue
 
Posts: n/a
Default My game.

Hi. I'm a lower class club player. However this yer I'm going to play a
few classes higher, so I have to do something;-) Now I'm looking at some
of my games and stepped over the following one. I'd llike to know your
thoughts on it, especially about the scrifice. Thanks.


[Event "Bezirksliga Lahn-Eder"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2003.09.21"]
[Round "1"]
[White ""]
[Black "Me"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteDWZ "1623"]
[BlackDWZ "1457"]
[ECO "A38e"]
[EventDate "2003.09.21"]

1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.g3
Hier wird i.d.R. O-O gespielt. Mir scheint es aber durchaus sinnvoll,
die weitere Entwicklung der Partie abzuwarten, und sich die Möglichkeit
offen zu halten, lang oder auch überhauptnicht zu rochieren.
4...d6 5.Bg2
Auch hier wieder ist die Rochadede der mit Abstand am häufigsten
gespielte Zug.
5...c5 6.O-O
Auch hier verweigere ich mich der an dieser Stelle häufiger gespielten
Rochade und leite, wie mir bei der späteren Analyse bewußt wird, in eine
Variante der Hauptlinieder symetriischen englischen Eröffnung über.
6...Nc6 7.a3
Ich habe 11 Partien auf Meisterniveau in meiner Datenbank gefunden, die
diese Stellung erreichten. Alle rochieren hier!
7...a5 8.d3 Rb8
Die Schußlinie des Bg2 verlassen, den bg2 nochmal gegen die eventuell
später eintretende Bedrohung des Bg2 absichern und einen eventuellen
Vorstoß des Bb2 vorbereiten.
9.h3? Bd7? 10.e3 Qc8
Wieso nicht gleich am Königsflügel angreifen?
11.Kh2
( 11.h4 )
11...h5 12.Qc2 Ng4+ 13.Kh1
( 13.hxg4? hxg4+ 14.Kg1 gxf3 15.Bxf3 )
13...Nge5 14.Ng1 Bf5 15.e4 Nd4 16.Qd1 Bg4 17.f3 Ndxf3
( 17...Bd7 )
18.Nxf3 Bxh3 19.Nxe5 Bxe5 20.Bf4 Bd4 21.Kh2
Crafty schlägt hier Qa4 vor, der Angriff des Schwarzen scheint aber
früher oder später doch durchzuschlagen.

( 21.Qa4+ Kf8 22.Nb5 h4 23.Nxd4 hxg3 24.Nf5 gxf5 25.e5 dxe5 26.Bxe5 Rh5
27.Bxb8 f4 28.Bxf4 Bd7+ )
21...h4 22.gxh4 Rxh4 23.Kg3?
Sieht zunächst interessant aus, führt aber zur sofortigen Niederlage.

( 23.Qe1 Rh5 24.Rf3
( 24.Bf3 Bxf1+ )
24...Bg4+ )
23...Bxg2! +- 24.Rh1
Die einzige Möglichkeit, dem sofortigen Matt zu entkommen.

( 24.Kxh4 Qh3+ 25.Kg5 Bf6# )
24...Rxh1 25.Qxh1 Bxh1 26.Rxh1 Kd7 27.Nd5 b5 28.b3 bxc4 29.bxc4 e6
30.Ne3 e5 31.Bg5 f6 32.Bh6 Bxe3 33.Bxe3 Qg8 34.Rf1 Ke6 0-1



Thanks.
  #3   Report Post  
Old August 1st 04, 10:26 PM
Antonio Torrecillas
 
Posts: n/a
Default My game.

En/na HoeHue ha escrit:
Thanks for your fast answer.

So you first say, 17. ... Ndxf3 was unneccesary. Going back with the
bishop might be stronger? Bd7 or Bd6? I feared that giving up the
immediate attack, I'd give up the advantage that I believed to have in
that position.


I think Bd7 can be the correct move and Ae6 is not much bad.

I think that to be justified a sacrifice is needed to have more pieces
atacking than defending. This is not the case because this sacrifice
allows white to trade most part of pieces well placed after 16th move.

IMHO white need to be careful and try not to allow black to open h file.
It's not an easy task but I think white can do it.

But, ... I can be wrong and black can open "h" file and addd his two
rooks to the attack. We can only know the truth analyzing deep enough.

Seccond you think, it was not correct. Sure, what my opponent played
was not best, leaving his king unprotected. But how about better
alternatives?
19. Nxe5 trading one of his active defenders is surely not good.


19.Nxe5 changes the strong Ne5 and black has less pieces to add to the
attack. It can be good (no matter there can be a better move), only is
needed a good analysis task. On the other hand maintaining the black
knight in e5 the Bg7 has more problems to join the attack. That shows
that both decisions have "pro and cons" and the solution is (AS ALWAYS)
given by hard analysis.

Is 19. Qa4+ the move of choice? It looks like I would have had a much
harder time, but after 19. ... Kf8?! 20. Qxa5 I beleve I could still
keep an active game and wolud have had good chances against an opponent
of similar skills as me. For example:
( 19.Qa4+ Kf8 20.Qxa5 h4 21.Nxh4 Bf6 22.Bf4 Qg4 23.Qc7 Rc8 24.Qxb7 Rxh4
25.Bxe5 Bxe5 )


I read your Qa4 "computer better move" but I prefer not to go too much
far with my queen to help in defence (a typical human decision).

With respect to your 21.Qa4 line, I think "all the long lines are wrong"
and sure there are many improvements in it ... like 26...Qe6 which wins
inmediatly for black.

Those Qa4 moves can be good but human players can not calculate as well
as machines and I prefer (if it is possible) a safer alternative.

Would a 1800+ Player as I may meet this Jear have punished me for my
foolhardiness?


Not at all, I have been up to 1800 in the last 20 years and I sometimes
make such a moves (or I have to defend under one of them).

I think that studying those decisions you made, you can learn a lot and
improve fastly. It's needed a hard work trying to know if white have
safe and good continuations or if black attack is enough compensation.
In that case computer help can be accepted but we have to do ourselves
the work, that mean that we can not let the computer alone.

Pointing black mistakes you can understand better that game and knowing
if you won thanks to some inacuracies or not.

In any case you played excelently and it has been an exciting game.

Greetings.


  #4   Report Post  
Old August 1st 04, 10:36 PM
HoeHue
 
Posts: n/a
Default My game.

Thanks for your fast answer.

So you first say, 17. ... Ndxf3 was unneccesary. Going back with the
bishop might be stronger? Bd7 or Bd6? I feared that giving up the
immediate attack, I'd give up the advantage that I believed to have in
that position.

Seccond you think, it was not correct. Sure, what my opponent played
was not best, leaving his king unprotected. But how about better
alternatives?
19. Nxe5 trading one of his active defenders is surely not good.
Is 19. Qa4+ the move of choice? It looks like I would have had a much
harder time, but after 19. ... Kf8?! 20. Qxa5 I beleve I could still
keep an active game and wolud have had good chances against an opponent
of similar skills as me. For example:
( 19.Qa4+ Kf8 20.Qxa5 h4 21.Nxh4 Bf6 22.Bf4 Qg4 23.Qc7 Rc8 24.Qxb7 Rxh4
25.Bxe5 Bxe5 )

Would a 1800+ Player as I may meet this Jear have punished me for my
foolhardiness?

Greetings.


  #5   Report Post  
Old August 1st 04, 11:28 PM
Antonio Torrecillas
 
Posts: n/a
Default My game.

En/na Antonio Torrecillas ha escrit:

En/na HoeHue ha escrit:

Seccond you think, it was not correct. Sure, what my opponent played
was not best, leaving his king unprotected. But how about better
alternatives?
19. Nxe5 trading one of his active defenders is surely not good.


19.Nxe5 changes the strong Ne5 and black has less pieces to add to the
attack. It can be good (no matter there can be a better move), only is
needed a good analysis task. On the other hand maintaining the black
knight in e5 the Bg7 has more problems to join the attack. That shows
that both decisions have "pro and cons" and the solution is (AS ALWAYS)
given by hard analysis.


Hello again,

I Have let my computer analyzing in move 19th half an hour (whereas I
was helping my little girl to start sleeping) and it proposed some
alternatives:

- 19.Nxe5 and 19.Bf4 were it two first options. 19.Kg1 and 19.Kh2 were
3rd and 4th.

But there are some other moves who I would have had a look. An acurate
analysis is needed here.
- 19.Nh4 was 5th option: After 19.Nh4 "h" file is closed and if ...g5
white can cut the way for black queen with Nf5. Fritz8 gives 19...Qg4
(exchanging queens the "d3" pawn can be lost) but I think the ending is
not satisfactory for black.
- 19.Rf2 is 9th option but it seems interesting too (two ideas: Qf1 and
an eventual Rf2-h2).

Fritz8 evaluations (all under 1.00) indicate it is not an easy task to
obtain a safe and good position for white.

AT



  #6   Report Post  
Old August 3rd 04, 06:14 PM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
 
Posts: n/a
Default My game.

HoeHue wrote:


11...h5 12.Qc2 Ng4+ 13.Kh1


White should move the king out of the h-file.

( 13.hxg4? hxg4+ 14.Kg1 gxf3 15.Bxf3 )
13...Nge5


Very interesting here was 13...h4. For example 14. Kg1 (14. hxg4 h3
with advantage for Black; 14. gxh4 Nge5 -/+; 14. Nxh4 Nf6 followed by
Bxh3 -/+) 14...Nge5 15. Nxe5 (15. g4 Bxg4) 15...Nxe5 16. g4 Bxg4 17.
hxg4 h3 18. Be4 19. Qxg4+ 20. Kh1 Nf3 with mating attack.

Another example: 14. Nd5 (plan Nb6) 14...b5 15. cxb5 hxg3 16. bxc6
Bxc6 17. Nf4 Nxf2+ 18. Rxf2 (18. Kg1 e5 plan Nxh3+) 18...gxf2 19. Qxf2
e5 20. Ne2 Rxh3+ 21. Kg1 Qg4 22. e4 Rh8 with the plan f5. Black has a
superior position.

This wouldn't have been possible if White played 13. Kg1.

14.Ng1


14. Nxe5 Nxe5 15. f4 and White could be ok. 15...Nxd3 16. Qxd3 Bxh3
17. e4 h4 18. Kg1 hxg3 19. Qxg3 Bd4+ 20. Be3 Bxg2+ 21. Kxg2 Qe6 22.
Qf3 or 22. Rh1 might not be enough for Black.

Bf5 15.e4 Nd4 16.Qd1 Bg4 17.f3 Ndxf3
( 17...Bd7 )
18.Nxf3 Bxh3 19.Nxe5 Bxe5 20.Bf4 Bd4
21.Kh2


White can play 21. Qe1 and block the h-pawn. The idea is to both
blocking the h-pawn from advance and interrupting the Bd4 with Be3.
Also an attack on the f-file (Qf2) or the e-file (e5) is prepared.
Another plan could be Nb5 followed by Qe1xa5-c7 trading the queens.

Good nerves are needed if Black plays 21...h4 anyway. 21. Qe1 h4 22.
gxh4 Qg4 23. Qg3 Rxh4 looks very dangerous but White can beat off the
attack. 24. Kh2 Kd7 25. Qxg4+ Bxg4+ 26. Kg3 Rbh8 27. Rh1. After the
rooks are traded White has a piece for two pawns in the endgame and is
probably winning.

To me it looks like 21. Qe1 is a refutation of the black sacrifice.

21...h4 22.gxh4


Is a mistake. 22. Rh1 threatens Bxh3. After 22...hxg3+ 23. Kxg3 Bxg2
24. Rxh8+ Bxh8 25. Kxg2 the attack is over. Same after 22...Be6 23.
Qe1 h3 24. Bf3. White will retaliate on the e-file.

Claus-Juergen
  #7   Report Post  
Old August 13th 04, 02:15 AM
Antonio Torrecillas
 
Posts: n/a
Default My game.

En/na Claus-Jürgen Heigl ha escrit:
HoeHue wrote:
18.Nxf3 Bxh3 19.Nxe5 Bxe5 20.Bf4 Bd4 21.Kh2


White can play 21. Qe1 and block the h-pawn. The idea is to both
blocking the h-pawn from advance and interrupting the Bd4 with Be3.
Also an attack on the f-file (Qf2) or the e-file (e5) is prepared.
Another plan could be Nb5 followed by Qe1xa5-c7 trading the queens.

Good nerves are needed if Black plays 21...h4 anyway. 21. Qe1 h4 22.
gxh4 Qg4 23. Qg3 Rxh4 looks very dangerous but White can beat off the
attack. 24. Kh2 Kd7 25. Qxg4+ Bxg4+ 26. Kg3 Rbh8 27. Rh1. After the
rooks are traded White has a piece for two pawns in the endgame and is
probably winning.

To me it looks like 21. Qe1 is a refutation of the black sacrifice.

Claus-Juergen


Sorry for the delay but I was out of home on holidays.

FEN
1rq1k2r/1p2pp2/3p2p1/p1p4p/2PbPB2/P1NP2Pb/1P4B1/R2Q1R1K w k - 0 21
ASCII
wKh1,Qd1,Nc3,Bf4,g2,Ra1,f1,Pa3,b2,c4,d3,e4,g3/
bKe8,Qc8,Bd4,h3,Rb8,h8,Pa5,b7,c5,d6,e7,f7,g6,h5

I looked "fastly" at that move 21.Qe1 as a possible refutation before
starting holidays but I found some problems in the line:
21.Qe1 h4! 22.gxh4 g5!? 23.Bg5 Qg4, for example 24.Qd2 f6 25.Bf4 Qxh4
26.Bxh3 Qxh3 27.Bh2 Kd7 with some problems for white.

Curiously, in this final position there are more black pieces atacking
than white's defending despite white being a piece up.

AT

  #8   Report Post  
Old August 27th 04, 11:06 PM
Antonio Torrecillas
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have just finished my holidays and I find this treat was not continued:

I refresh the game (appeared here at the beginning of this month):

[Event "Bezirksliga Lahn-Eder"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2003.09.21"]
[Round "1"]
[White "NN"]
[Black "Hoe Hue"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A16"]
[PlyCount "68"]
[EventDate "2003.09.21"]

1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3 d6 5. Bg2 c5 6. O-O Nc6 7. a3 a5 8.
d3 Rb8 9. h3 Bd7 10. e3 Qc8 11. Kh2 h5 12. Qc2 Ng4+ 13. Kh1 Nge5 14. Ng1
Bf5 15. e4 Nd4 16. Qd1 Bg4 17. f3 Ndxf3 18. Nxf3 Bxh3 19. Nxe5 Bxe5 20.
Bf4 Bd4 21. Kh2 h4 22. gxh4 Rxh4 23. Kg3 Bxg2 24. Rh1 Rxh1 25. Qxh1 Bxh1
26. Rxh1 Kd7 27. Nd5 b5 28. b3 bxc4 29. bxc4 e6 30. Ne3 e5 31. Bg5 f6
32. Bh6 Bxe3 33. Bxe3 Qg8 34. Rf1 Ke6 0-1

- I wrote that 17...Ndxf3 seems incorrect

- Hoe Hue wrote:
Sure, what my opponent played was not best, leaving his king
unprotected. But how about better alternatives?
19. Nxe5 trading one of his active defenders is surely not good.
Is 19. Qa4+ the move of choice? It looks like I would have had a much
harder time, but after 19. ... Kf8?! 20. Qxa5 I beleve I could still
keep an active game and wolud have had good chances against an opponent
of similar skills as me. For example: ( 19.Qa4+ Kf8 20.Qxa5 h4 21.Nxh4
Bf6 22.Bf4 Qg4 23.Qc7 Rc8 24.Qxb7 Rxh4 25.Bxe5 Bxe5 )

- I wrote later:
I think that to be justified a sacrifice is needed to have more pieces
atacking than defending. This is not the case because this sacrifice
allows white to trade most part of pieces well placed after 16th move.
IMHO white need to be careful and try not to allow black to open h file.
It's not an easy task but I think white can do it.

But, ... I can be wrong and black can open "h" file and add his two
rooks to the attack. We can only know the truth analyzing deep enough.

- Claus Juergen wrote:
White can play 21. Qe1 and block the h-pawn. The idea is to both
blocking the h-pawn from advance and interrupting the Bd4 with Be3.
Also an attack on the f-file (Qf2) or the e-file (e5) is prepared.
Another plan could be Nb5 followed by Qe1xa5-c7 trading the queens.

Good nerves are needed if Black plays 21...h4 anyway. 21. Qe1 h4 22.gxh4
Qg4 23. Qg3 Rxh4 looks very dangerous but White can beat off the attack.
24. Kh2 Kd7 25. Qxg4+ Bxg4+ 26. Kg3 Rbh8 27. Rh1. After the rooks are
traded White has a piece for two pawns in the endgame and is probably
winning.

To me it looks like 21. Qe1 is a refutation of the black sacrifice.

- I answered:
I looked "fastly" at that move 21.Qe1 as a possible refutation before
starting holidays but I found some problems in the line: 21.Qe1 h4!
22.gxh4 g5!? 23.Bg5 Qg4, for example 24.Qd2 f6 25.Bf4 Qxh4 26.Bxh3 Qxh3
27.Bh2 Kd7 with some problems for white.

Curiously, in this final position there are more black pieces atacking
than white's defending despite white being a piece up.

- And I finally today I say:
At first moment the sacrifice seemed to me incorrect but I did not found
a clear refutation. One of the first moves who came to my mind was the
same that CJ proposed: 21.Qe1 but you can read the line I wrote that
seemed not so clear for white. Other possibility is 21.Qe1 h4! 22.gxh4
g5!? 23.Bg3!? Qg4 but here I can't find either any clear advantage for
white. My computer now suggest here 24.Bf3 Qd7 25.h5 but it's too
sofisticated for me.

In "conclusion": to know if there is a refutation of this sacrifice
white need to check other moves from 19th to 22th. I wrote a few lines
about other 19th alternatives, 21.Qe1 line waits for improvements and
the only thing I'm sure is that 22.gxh4 is bad.

AT

Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
IS IT WRONG TO PLAY VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES? Gunny Bunny rec.games.chess.computer (Computer Chess) 5 June 2nd 04 08:44 PM
Staunton's rich and varied past John Townsend rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 15 May 24th 04 03:51 AM
Game > Play > Outcome > Analysis > Game Theory Soph Omore rec.games.chess.computer (Computer Chess) 6 November 23rd 03 01:01 AM
Game > Play > Outcome > Analysis > Game Theory Soph Omore rec.games.chess.politics (Chess Politics) 6 November 23rd 03 01:01 AM
Game > Play > Outcome > Analysis > Game Theory Soph Omore rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 7 November 23rd 03 01:01 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:23 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2019 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Chess"

 

Copyright © 2017