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Old August 2nd 04, 11:01 AM
Eurydice
 
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Default Should Black agree with draw ?

In this position : 8/8/1p1p1k2/p4p1K/P1P2P1P/3B1n2/8/8 w - - 0 1

(White : Kh5, Bd3, a4,c4,f4,h4 / Black : Kf6, Nf3, a5, b6, d6, f5)

Thanks


--
Faites que le rêve dévore votre vie afin que la vie ne dévore pas votre
rêve.
[Antoine de Saint Exupéry]
email : Dalip at ifrance.com
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jmrw/


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Old August 2nd 04, 11:06 AM
Eurydice
 
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Default Should Black agree with draw ?

White to play !

"Eurydice" a écrit dans le message de
...
In this position : 8/8/1p1p1k2/p4p1K/P1P2P1P/3B1n2/8/8 w - - 0 1

(White : Kh5, Bd3, a4,c4,f4,h4 / Black : Kf6, Nf3, a5, b6, d6, f5)

Thanks


--
Faites que le rêve dévore votre vie afin que la vie ne dévore pas votre
rêve.
[Antoine de Saint Exupéry]
email : Dalip at ifrance.com
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jmrw/




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Old August 2nd 04, 11:22 PM
Arfur Million
 
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Default Should Black agree with draw ?

"Eurydice" wrote in message
...
White to play !

"Eurydice" a écrit dans le message de
...
In this position : 8/8/1p1p1k2/p4p1K/P1P2P1P/3B1n2/8/8 w - - 0 1

(White : Kh5, Bd3, a4,c4,f4,h4 / Black : Kf6, Nf3, a5, b6, d6, f5)

Thanks


--
Faites que le rêve dévore votre vie afin que la vie ne dévore pas votre
rêve.
[Antoine de Saint Exupéry]
email : Dalip at ifrance.com
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jmrw/



I'd say no, Black has real chances of winning this game (all White pawns are
weak). White can perhaps hold the draw, but it is at best a difficult
defence, IMHO.

Regards,
Arfur


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Old August 3rd 04, 01:33 AM
Ricardo Gibert
 
Posts: n/a
Default Should Black agree with draw ?


"Eurydice" wrote in message
...
White to play !

"Eurydice" a écrit dans le message de
...
In this position : 8/8/1p1p1k2/p4p1K/P1P2P1P/3B1n2/8/8 w - - 0 1

(White : Kh5, Bd3, a4,c4,f4,h4 / Black : Kf6, Nf3, a5, b6, d6, f5)

Thanks


In general, if you have to ask the question, the answer is no.

In the specific position, Blacks threat of Nf3-d4-e6xf4 cannot be stopped.
After this, his f-pawn cannot be stopped. White is lost.



--
Faites que le rêve dévore votre vie afin que la vie ne dévore pas votre
rêve.
[Antoine de Saint Exupéry]
email : Dalip at ifrance.com
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jmrw/






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Old August 3rd 04, 07:59 AM
Eurydice
 
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Default Should Black agree with draw ?

Ricardo Gibert :
In the specific position, Blacks threat of Nf3-d4-e6xf4 cannot be stopped.


I agree

After this, his f-pawn cannot be stopped.


I think it is not so easy. The white Bishop can stop the f pawn helped with
the threat of the white h pawn.

White is lost.


That's too my opionion.

The only counterplay of white is to attack with their King the black pawns
on the King side.

But Black can manage to capture the a4 pawn (after or not exchange of d and
c pawns and f and h pawns according to variantes)

It is possible to get the position Kf4, Bf3 / Kh6, Na4, b6, a5 White to move
and Black win I believe.

Thanks


--
Faites que le rêve dévore votre vie afin que la vie ne dévore pas votre
rêve.
[Antoine de Saint Exupéry]
email : Dalip at ifrance.com
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jmrw/





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Old August 3rd 04, 06:08 PM
Mike Ogush
 
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Default Should Black agree with draw ?

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 08:59:45 +0200, "Eurydice"
wrote:

Ricardo Gibert :
In the specific position, Blacks threat of Nf3-d4-e6xf4 cannot be stopped.


I agree

After this, his f-pawn cannot be stopped.


I think it is not so easy. The white Bishop can stop the f pawn helped with
the threat of the white h pawn.

White is lost.


That's too my opionion.

The only counterplay of white is to attack with their King the black pawns
on the King side.

But Black can manage to capture the a4 pawn (after or not exchange of d and
c pawns and f and h pawns according to variantes)

It is possible to get the position Kf4, Bf3 / Kh6, Na4, b6, a5 White to move
and Black win I believe.

Thanks


--
Faites que le rêve dévore votre vie afin que la vie ne dévore pas votre
rêve.
[Antoine de Saint Exupéry]
email : Dalip at ifrance.com
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jmrw/




For amusement I let Fritz analyze from the starting position over
night. In the morning it was in the middle of analyzing to a depth of
28 ply. The principle variation was:

1) 1.Bb1 1...Ne1 2.Kh6 Ng2 3.h5 Nxf4 4.Bc2 Ng2 5.Bxf5 Kxf5 -1.91/28

I started looking at the end position of this line further on my own
and I realized that even though Black is up a full piece he cannot
stop White's h-pawn without letting White's king escape to capture all
of the black pawns. One contunuation is:

6.Kg7 Nf4 7.h6 Ne6+ 8.Kf7 Ng5+ 9.Kg7 Kg4 10.Kf6 Kh5 11.h7 Nxh7+ 12.Ke6
Ng5+ 13.Kxd6 Nf3 14.Kc6 Nd2 15.Kxb6=

I also include the other varaions from the starting position below:

[Fritz 7 (No MMX): 2) 1.Be2 Nd4 2.Bd1 Ne6 3.Kh6 Nxf4 4.Kh7 Ne6 5.Kg8
f4 -2.06/28 ;
Fritz 7 (No MMX): 3) 1.Bf1 Nd4 2.Kh6 Ne6 3.Kh7 Nxf4 4.Kg8 Kg6 5.Kf8 d5
-2.66/28 ;
Fritz 7 (No MMX): 4) 1.Bc2 Ne1 2.Bd1 -3.00/27 ;
Fritz 7 (No MMX): 5) 1.Kh6 Nxh4 2.Kh5 Ng6 3.Bc2 Nxf4+ 4.Kh4 Ke5 5.Kg3
Ne6 -3.97/27 ;
Fritz 7 (No MMX): 6) 1.c5 bxc5 2.Bc4 Ng1 3.Kh6 Nh3 4.h5 Nxf4 5.Ba2 d5
-5.84/27 ;
Fritz 7 (No MMX): 7) 1.Be4 -9.50/27 ;
Fritz 7 (No MMX): 8) 1.Bxf5 -9.81/27 ] Nxc4+ Line


To the orginal poster: even if this is a draw with best play, I would
play on for a while as black because black can win the f-pawn. Most
players below the the master level would probably not recognize the
need to give up bishop and even the h-pawn in order to get the white
king to the queen side and capture the d- and b-pawns to draw.

Mike Ogush
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Old August 4th 04, 10:45 AM
Eurydice
 
Posts: n/a
Default Should Black agree with draw ?

Mike Ogush :

For amusement I let Fritz analyze from the starting position over
night. In the morning it was in the middle of analyzing to a depth of
28 ply. The principle variation was:

1) 1.Bb1 1...Ne1 2.Kh6 Ng2 3.h5 Nxf4 4.Bc2 Ng2 5.Bxf5 Kxf5 -1.91/28

I started looking at the end position of this line further on my own
and I realized that even though Black is up a full piece he cannot
stop White's h-pawn without letting White's king escape to capture all
of the black pawns. One contunuation is:

6.Kg7 Nf4 7.h6 Ne6+ 8.Kf7 Ng5+ 9.Kg7 Kg4 10.Kf6 Kh5 11.h7 Nxh7+ 12.Ke6
Ng5+ 13.Kxd6 Nf3 14.Kc6 Nd2 15.Kxb6=


Fritz alone would never had discovered America from the Ouest Coast of
Europe because of the horizon effect. o)

But the analysis is quite nice and correct.

At the fourth move Black can play 4...Ce6, the sacrifice of the Bishop is
not longer possible. Nethertheless the computation gives :
5.Rh7 Cg5+ 6.Rg8 Cf7 7.Rf8 f4 8.Fe4 Ch6 9.Re8 Cg4 10.Rd7 Re5 11.Ff3 Ch2
12.h6 Rf6 13.Fe4 f3 14.Rxd6 f2 15.Fd3 f1D 16.Fxf1 Cxf1 17.Rc6 Cd2 18.Rxb6
Cxc4+ 19.Rb5=

Thanks al lot


--
Faites que le rêve dévore votre vie afin que la vie ne dévore pas votre
rêve.
[Antoine de Saint Exupéry]
email : Dalip at ifrance.com
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jmrw/


  #8   Report Post  
Old August 5th 04, 01:02 AM
Claus-Jürgen Heigl
 
Posts: n/a
Default Should Black agree with draw ?

Mike Ogush wrote:

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 08:59:45 +0200, "Eurydice"
wrote:


1) 1.Bb1 1...Ne1 2.Kh6 Ng2 3.h5 Nxf4 4.Bc2 Ng2 5.Bxf5 Kxf5 -1.91/28

I started looking at the end position of this line further on my own
and I realized that even though Black is up a full piece he cannot
stop White's h-pawn without letting White's king escape to capture all
of the black pawns. One contunuation is:

6.Kg7 Nf4 7.h6 Ne6+ 8.Kf7 Ng5+ 9.Kg7 Kg4 10.Kf6 Kh5 11.h7 Nxh7+ 12.Ke6
Ng5+ 13.Kxd6 Nf3 14.Kc6 Nd2 15.Kxb6=


I looked into this myself and thought I had a winning line for Black
but again the sacrifice on f5 secures the draw.

1. Bb1 Nd4 2. Kh6 Ne6 3. h5 Nxf4

Black can reach this position with the bishop on c2 with 1...Nd2 2.
Bd3 Nb3 3. Kh6 Nc5 4. Bc2 Ne6 5. h5 Nxf4 but it doesn't matter.

4...d5

Eliminates a pair of pawns. Black rather doesn't want to trade pawns,
because he needs a pawn to promote. The more are there the more
chances to promote. But d6 is also a target for the white king. As we
will see the white king will get his chance to invade the queenside.
If the pawn is already traded it can't be captured. Not only d6 is
traded but also c4. This reduces the white control over b5 so a
breakthrough on the queenside with b5 may be possible later, creating
a passed black a-pawn. Also the knight gains access to both d5 and d6
squares. The white bishop gets easy access to the a2-g8 diagonal which
is next to useless. more useful are additional squares on the f1-a6
diagonal where the white bishop controls the promoting square f1.

5. cxd5

Forced. If White doesn't trade Black creates another passed pawn with
d4.

5...Nxd5 6. Bxf5

In my opinion the only move that saves White. Anything other loses.

a) 6. Kh7

White wants to reach a queen endgame. If White delays the advance of
the h-pawn Black will find a way to stop it.

6...Ne3 7. h6

Black doesn't have the time to take the bishop. If White falls for the
threat the pawn is lost. 7. Bd3 Kg5 8. h6 Ng4.

7...Ng4

Threatening Kg5 therefore the answer is forced.

8. Bd1 Kg5 9. Bxg4 fxg4 10. Kg7 g3 11. h7 g2 12. h8Q g1Q 13. Kf7 Qc5

I think Black wins this endgame. Black moves the king to the
queenside, captures the pawn and promotes another.

b) 6. Bd3 f4 7. Kh7

7. Be4 loses also. The idea is basically the same: While White wins
the pawns on the queenside Black captures the h-pawn and promotes the
f-pawn. If someone is interested in the lines I'll post it. As White
has a better 6th move I let it stand as it is.

7...Kg5 8. h6 Nf6+ 9. Kg7 Nh5+ 10. Kf7 (10. Kh7 f3 11. Bf1 f2 12. Bd3
Ng3 13. Kg7 Nf5+ 14. Bxf5 f1Q 15. h7 Qa1+ 16. Kg8 Kxf5 -+) 10...Kxh6
11. Ke6 Ng3 12. Kd5 Kg5 13. Kd4 (13. Kc6 f3 14. Kxb6 Kf4 15. Kxa5 Ke3
16. Bb5 f2 17. Kb6 Ne2 18. a5 f1Q 19. a6 Qf6+ 20. Kc7 Qe5+ 21. Kb6
Qb8+ 22. Kc6 Nd4+ -+) 13...Kg4 14. Bb5 Kf3 15. Kd3 Nf5 16. Bc6+ Kg3
17. Ke4 Ne3 18. Bb5 Nd1 19. Kd3 f3 20. Kc2 Nf2 21. Bc6 Kf4 22. Kd2
Ne4+ 23. Kd3 Nc5+ 24. Kd2 f2 25. Ke2 Kg3 26. Kf1 Nb3 -+

On with the main line:

6...Kxf5 7. Kg7

Both king and knight are needed to hold the white pawn. Black can't
force trading the knight against the pawn. The only way to promote a
black pawn is to sacrifice the b-pawn. This ends in a queen + knight
versus queen endgame. Although the white queen is prevented from
checks Black can't force a mate. The white king can escape.

7...b5 8. axb5 a4 7. b6 a3 8. b7 a2 9. b8Q a1Q+ 10. Kg8 10...Nf6+ 11.
Kf7 11...Qa2+ 12. Kg7 (only move) 12...Qg2+ (12...Nxh5+ is draw
according to tablebases) 13. Kf7 Qd5+ 14. Kg7.

14...Nxh5+ again is drawn. Otherwise Black can't continue without the
white queen getting checks.

Claus-Juergen
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Old August 5th 04, 11:52 AM
Eurydice
 
Posts: n/a
Default Should Black agree with draw ?


"Claus-Jürgen Heigl" :

I looked into this myself and thought I had a winning line for Black
but again the sacrifice on f5 secures the draw.

1. Bb1 Nd4 2. Kh6 Ne6 3. h5 Nxf4

Black can reach this position with the bishop on c2 with 1...Nd2 2.
Bd3 Nb3 3. Kh6 Nc5 4. Bc2 Ne6 5. h5 Nxf4 but it doesn't matter.

4...d5

Eliminates a pair of pawns. Black rather doesn't want to trade pawns,
because he needs a pawn to promote. The more are there the more
chances to promote. But d6 is also a target for the white king. As we
will see the white king will get his chance to invade the queenside.
If the pawn is already traded it can't be captured. Not only d6 is
traded but also c4. This reduces the white control over b5 so a
breakthrough on the queenside with b5 may be possible later, creating
a passed black a-pawn. Also the knight gains access to both d5 and d6
squares. The white bishop gets easy access to the a2-g8 diagonal which
is next to useless. more useful are additional squares on the f1-a6
diagonal where the white bishop controls the promoting square f1.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
Ok this is a good try because we have seen that 4...Ng2 or 4...Ne6 lead to
draw quickly enough.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------

5. cxd5

Forced. If White doesn't trade Black creates another passed pawn with
d4.

5...Nxd5 6. Bxf5

In my opinion the only move that saves White. Anything other loses.

a) 6. Kh7

White wants to reach a queen endgame. If White delays the advance of
the h-pawn Black will find a way to stop it.

6...Ne3 7. h6

Black doesn't have the time to take the bishop. If White falls for the
threat the pawn is lost. 7. Bd3 Kg5 8. h6 Ng4.

7...Ng4

Threatening Kg5 therefore the answer is forced.

8. Bd1 Kg5 9. Bxg4 fxg4 10. Kg7 g3 11. h7 g2 12. h8Q g1Q 13. Kf7 Qc5

I think Black wins this endgame. Black moves the king to the
queenside, captures the pawn and promotes another.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
I am not sure Black wins this endgmame. Autoplay with computer lead to a
draw. White Defends their pawn with their Queen and if the Black King
approach the pawn he is submitted to checks to put him away.
Computer in Autoplay is unable to win this endgame.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------

b) 6. Bd3 f4 7. Kh7

7. Be4 loses also. The idea is basically the same: While White wins
the pawns on the queenside Black captures the h-pawn and promotes the
f-pawn. If someone is interested in the lines I'll post it. As White
has a better 6th move I let it stand as it is.

7...Kg5 8. h6 Nf6+ 9. Kg7 Nh5+ 10. Kf7 (10. Kh7 f3 11. Bf1 f2 12. Bd3
Ng3 13. Kg7 Nf5+ 14. Bxf5 f1Q 15. h7 Qa1+ 16. Kg8 Kxf5 -+) 10...Kxh6
11. Ke6 Ng3 12. Kd5 Kg5 13. Kd4 (13. Kc6 f3 14. Kxb6 Kf4 15. Kxa5 Ke3
16. Bb5 f2 17. Kb6 Ne2 18. a5 f1Q 19. a6 Qf6+ 20. Kc7 Qe5+ 21. Kb6
Qb8+ 22. Kc6 Nd4+ -+) 13...Kg4 14. Bb5 Kf3 15. Kd3 Nf5 16. Bc6+ Kg3
17. Ke4 Ne3 18. Bb5 Nd1 19. Kd3 f3 20. Kc2 Nf2 21. Bc6 Kf4 22. Kd2
Ne4+ 23. Kd3 Nc5+ 24. Kd2 f2 25. Ke2 Kg3 26. Kf1 Nb3 -+


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
I agree. Black King can capture the white a and b pawns but Black make a
Queen by preventing the Bishop to sacrifice on their f pawn by interpose
their Knight defended by their King on the diagonal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------


On with the main line:

6...Kxf5 7. Kg7

Both king and knight are needed to hold the white pawn. Black can't
force trading the knight against the pawn. The only way to promote a
black pawn is to sacrifice the b-pawn. This ends in a queen + knight
versus queen endgame. Although the white queen is prevented from
checks Black can't force a mate. The white king can escape.

7...b5 8. axb5 a4 7. b6 a3 8. b7 a2 9. b8Q a1Q+ 10. Kg8 10...Nf6+ 11.
Kf7 11...Qa2+ 12. Kg7 (only move) 12...Qg2+ (12...Nxh5+ is draw
according to tablebases) 13. Kf7 Qd5+ 14. Kg7.

14...Nxh5+ again is drawn. Otherwise Black can't continue without the
white queen getting checks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
I agree

Sorry for my poor english, I am french.

So probably the initial position leads to a draw on a good play from each
side.

Thanks a lot to Claus-Juergen
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------


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