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Old August 3rd 04, 02:48 PM
Tim923
 
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Default forceable mate endgames

Which low piece endgames allow white to be able to force mate even
with the best counterplay? No pawns. The ones I am aware of (kings
unlisted):

queen vs -
rook vs -
2 bishops vs -

I don't know about a lot of 4,5,6 piece endgames.
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Old August 3rd 04, 06:16 PM
Joost de Heer
 
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Default forceable mate endgames

2 bishops vs -

Or more exact: 2 bishops on different square colours

Joost
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Old August 3rd 04, 06:24 PM
Mike Ogush
 
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Default forceable mate endgames

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:48:21 GMT, Tim923 wrote:

Which low piece endgames allow white to be able to force mate even
with the best counterplay? No pawns. The ones I am aware of (kings
unlisted):

queen vs -
rook vs -
2 bishops vs -

as long as the bishops are opposite colored.

I don't know about a lot of 4,5,6 piece endgames.


Adding to the list:

bishop + knight vs -
queen vs rook [This is true in the majority of tstaring poisitons but
ther are some exceptions:
1) the side with the rook can force a trade of his rook for the queen
(via a pin, skewer or fork)
2) the side with rook has either perpetual check or the position goes
into case 1.
3) the side with the rook can either force a statelmate or the
position goes into case 1 or 2.
In the winning positions the side with the queen usually maneivers to
a position where he either wins the rook or mates directly. Once the
rook is gone the rest is easy]
queen vs knight [Usually a win, but some exceptions similar to queen
vs rook case 1]
queen vs bishop [Usually a win, but some exceptions similar to queen
vs rook case 1]

I believe that queen vs two bishops is also generally a win, but there
are more positions that are exceptions than with queen vs bishop. The
main problem with the two bishops is that they cannot defend each
other.
Queen vs two knights is harder because the knights can defend each
other.

For an exact answer I suggest that you consult the 5-man and 6-man
endgame table bases that are available on-line.


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Old August 3rd 04, 10:46 PM
Tim923
 
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Default forceable mate endgames

BNK vs. K is a forced mate, but being able to work it out in under 50 moves
is very difficult.


What happens if the 50-rule conditions are met, but the player with
the advantage wants to play on, and the other wants to call a draw for
good reason?

Is it difficult for black to avoid mate against KNN?


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Old August 4th 04, 04:34 AM
David Pollitt
 
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Default forceable mate endgames


Tim923 ) writes:
BNK vs. K is a forced mate, but being able to work it out in under 50 moves
is very difficult.


What happens if the 50-rule conditions are met, but the player with
the advantage wants to play on, and the other wants to call a draw for
good reason?

Is it difficult for black to avoid mate against KNN?


It is not possible to force mate with KNN vs. K.

+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ WHITE black
8 | | | | | | | | k | ----- -----
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 43. Nf6+ Kh8 (Black must agree
7 | | | | | | N | | | 44. Nf7++ to be mated.)
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
6 | | | | | | N | K | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
5 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
4 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
3 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
2 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
1 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
a b c d e f g h
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Old August 4th 04, 11:01 AM
Hans Jørgen Lassen
 
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Default forceable mate endgames

In addition to the constellations already mentioned here king plus three
knights forces mate. A rare sight, I must admit.
Hans J


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Old August 4th 04, 12:01 PM
Hans Jørgen Lassen
 
Posts: n/a
Default forceable mate endgames

Here is a study demonstrating mate with three knights.

Position by Berger (Österr. Lesehalle, 1889) :
White: Kc4, Re3, Na4 and b4, Pc7
Black: Ka7, Qf8, Ne7

Solution (Danish notation, sorry):
1.Txe7 Dxe7 2.c8S+ Kb7 3.Sxe7 Kc7 4.Kd5 Kd7 5.Sbc6 Kc7 6.Ke6 Kb7 7.Kd6 Ka6
8.Kc5 Kb7 9.Sb6 Kc7 10.Sed5+ Kb7 11.Scb4 Kb8 12.Kc6 Ka7 13.Se7 Kb8 14.Sd7+
Ka7 15.Kc7 Ka8 16.Sb6+ Ka7 17.Sec6# 1-0

Hans J


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Old August 5th 04, 04:43 PM
David Pollitt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Mate with KN vs. KQBBNNRRPPPPPPPP. (was forceable mate endgames)


It is possible to mate with only a king and a knight.

+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ WHITE black
8 | *r| *n| *b| *r| | | | *k| ----- -----
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 71. Qg8+ Rxg8
7 | *p| *p| *p| *p| | | *p| *p| 72. Nf7++
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
6 | *q| *b| | | | | | N |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
5 | | *n | | *p| *p| | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
4 | | | Q | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
3 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
2 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
1 | | | | | K | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
a b c d e f g h

David Pollitt ) writes:
Tim923 ) writes:
BNK vs. K is a forced mate, but being able to work it out in under 50 moves
is very difficult.


What happens if the 50-rule conditions are met, but the player with
the advantage wants to play on, and the other wants to call a draw for
good reason?

Is it difficult for black to avoid mate against KNN?


It is not possible to force mate with KNN vs. K.

+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ WHITE black
8 | | | | | | | | k | ----- -----
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 43. Nf6+ Kh8 (Black must agree
7 | | | | | | N | | | 44. Nf7++ to be mated.)
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
6 | | | | | | N | K | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
5 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
4 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
3 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
2 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
1 | | | | | | | | |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
a b c d e f g h

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