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Old March 20th 04, 05:17 AM
Roger
 
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"Newsmail" wrote in message news:[email protected]
Are these other sites you mention good? Do they have admins that police
them for cheaters?


ICC, Playchess, and WCN all police for cheaters. But the easiest way is to
compile a friends list of those that you have had a good (and fair) gaming
experience with, and put on *ignore* those that harass you, cheat, etc. It
takes only a second or two to label someone as *friend*, or *ignore*, and
all three of those sites have this feature. After a short time you will have
weeded out most of the headaches, and will only have to add the occasional
player to your *ignore* list


Jason Repa


I know that ICC does police for cheaters, but I am not aware of WCN or
Playchess doing any policing other than monitoring task-switching. I
wondered how effective WCN was at detecting cheating, so I've tested
them a few times and they never caught me. I used a 2nd computer to
circumvent task-switching measures.

On a side note, it is my understand that ICC does have the means to
block individual computers from logging in. Blitzin somehow identifies
your machine, using unique things like your windows serial number.
That is why trial members have to use the latest version of Blitzin.

Roger
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Old March 20th 04, 06:04 AM
Newsmail
 
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"Roger" wrote in message
m...
"Newsmail" wrote in message

news:[email protected]
Are these other sites you mention good? Do they have admins that

police
them for cheaters?


ICC, Playchess, and WCN all police for cheaters. But the easiest way is

to
compile a friends list of those that you have had a good (and fair)

gaming
experience with, and put on *ignore* those that harass you, cheat, etc.

It
takes only a second or two to label someone as *friend*, or *ignore*,

and
all three of those sites have this feature. After a short time you will

have
weeded out most of the headaches, and will only have to add the

occasional
player to your *ignore* list


Jason Repa


I know that ICC does police for cheaters, but I am not aware of WCN or
Playchess doing any policing


Playchess actually does it alot more than ICC does, and they send a general
broadcast to everyone in glaring red font every time they do it.


I
wondered how effective WCN was at detecting cheating


I'm not sure how effective WCN is, but I have heard of them catching and
banning cheaters.

, so I've tested
them a few times and they never caught me. I used a 2nd computer to
circumvent task-switching measures.

On a side note, it is my understand that ICC does have the means to
block individual computers from logging in. Blitzin somehow identifies
your machine, using unique things like your windows serial number.
That is why trial members have to use the latest version of Blitzin.

Roger


All this panic and paranoia about cheating is not warranted. My biggest
concern about program cheats is that I get a boring game. If you follow the
advice I gave in my last post regarding compilation of a friends list and
ignore list, you will not have any problems.

Jason Repa


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Old March 20th 04, 08:49 AM
Woodshifter
 
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Newsmail wrote:

Playchess actually does it alot more than ICC does, and they send a general
broadcast to everyone in glaring red font every time they do it.


I saw this. They also erase the offender's rating. On ICC no one knows
you've cheated till they finger you or simply see your name (if it has a
C after it), but this method is much better because it's humiliating for
the offender, and if he was cheating to raise his rating, then he's just
shot himself in the foot.
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Old March 20th 04, 09:41 AM
Terry
 
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"Roger" wrote in message
m...
"Newsmail" wrote in message

news:[email protected]
Are these other sites you mention good? Do they have admins that

police
them for cheaters?


ICC, Playchess, and WCN all police for cheaters. But the easiest way is

to
compile a friends list of those that you have had a good (and fair)

gaming
experience with, and put on *ignore* those that harass you, cheat, etc.

It
takes only a second or two to label someone as *friend*, or *ignore*,

and
all three of those sites have this feature. After a short time you will

have
weeded out most of the headaches, and will only have to add the

occasional
player to your *ignore* list


Jason Repa


I know that ICC does police for cheaters, but I am not aware of WCN or
Playchess doing any policing other than monitoring task-switching. I
wondered how effective WCN was at detecting cheating, so I've tested
them a few times and they never caught me. I used a 2nd computer to
circumvent task-switching measures.


I have heard some excuses in my time for cheating
but you beat them all.



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Old March 20th 04, 01:28 PM
bruno de baenst
 
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I saw a lot of people on wcn being banned because of cheating.
But if you use 2 computers to cheat, it must be almost impossible for the
admins to know if you cheat on any site. The only way they can know is that
you always play same moves as computer program (and use more or less same
time between 2 moves). But as of course nobody has the time to look at all
games, there must be a suspicion of cheating first. And before some
suspicion is risen I think some weeks will have past.

Not only Icc but also Wcn and more than likely Playchess too have the
ability to block indivuals computers from logging in. They don't use windows
serial number for that but they use ip(internet protocol)-adresses. But
people who know something about computers won't have much problems with this
cause it isn't that hard to change your ip-adress when you are not on
dial-up.

In my opinion, the best sites are in order:
1) Wcn (www.worldchessnetwork.com) : A lot of great audio broadcasts, audio
lectures , banter games (masters playing against eachother and explaining
moves to audience), audio fireside chat (where you can ask questions to a
master) , master challenges (where you can play masters), gold member
challenges (where you can play strong non-master players), master
tournaments (every two week +-50 masters play against eachother in tourney.
Wcn also has the cleanest interface, and is constantly improving ( a
entirely new version is planned in spring 2004) , while Icc hasn't changed
much over time. There is also a good community feeling here, cause if you
play some weeks here, you get to know most people in chat.
Bad thing is that tourneys are often canceled cause not enough players, also
people don't have a profile as they do have on Icc and playchess.
Cost: currently 49,95 dollars for 1 year 79,95 for 2 but often there are
discounts when there are special events, I bought my membership at 24,95
dollar, with dollars I won in tourneys so didn't pay anything really.
Free trial period : 15 days.

2)Icc (www.chessclub.com) : Biggest advantage for Icc is that there are lots
of strong players playing here, if you are 2200+ then this site is probably
the best, cause you will find few such strong players on Wcn (especially on
5minute or more time control) . Also Icc broadcasts more tourneys than wcn
but without commentary. And on Icc you have the ability to play some chess
variants, as loserschess, atomic chess, ... . Bad thing is also the
interface (although there are lots of versions, but I haven't tried any good
one), cause you have to type so many stupid commands while wcn is all
point-and-click. Also way to much chat rooms . The tournaments are very
frequent and good here though.
Cost: 49 dollars for 1 year. 89 dollars for two. I don't know if they have
special actions here.
Free trial period: 2 times 2 weeks, wich you can take after eachother, or
with a period between

3)playchess(www.playchess.com): This site is also improving quite rapidly
but I find it a pretty overloaded interface, challenge and chat functions
are pretty bad here. And I very much hate the incredibly stupid feature of
premove, where you can move before it's your turn. Good is that you can
order people by nationality so you can see very fast what players of your
country are currently playing. The tournament system doesn't work very good
on this site either. Good is that you can upload your profile here, with
picture. Also good is that you can analyse your games after you have played
with your chessprogram.
Cost: 37,12 dollars for one year. But if you buy a chessbase product like
fritz 8 or shredder 8 you get one year for free. So it's probably cheaper if
you buy fritz instead of buying solely 1 year membership.
Free trial period: 30 days.


The best free site is probably the site of msn, www.zone.com . Though there
is quite a big gap between this site and those mentioned above.



"Roger" schreef in bericht
m...
"Newsmail" wrote in message

news:[email protected]
Are these other sites you mention good? Do they have admins that

police
them for cheaters?


ICC, Playchess, and WCN all police for cheaters. But the easiest way is

to
compile a friends list of those that you have had a good (and fair)

gaming
experience with, and put on *ignore* those that harass you, cheat, etc.

It
takes only a second or two to label someone as *friend*, or *ignore*,

and
all three of those sites have this feature. After a short time you will

have
weeded out most of the headaches, and will only have to add the

occasional
player to your *ignore* list


Jason Repa


I know that ICC does police for cheaters, but I am not aware of WCN or
Playchess doing any policing other than monitoring task-switching. I
wondered how effective WCN was at detecting cheating, so I've tested
them a few times and they never caught me. I used a 2nd computer to
circumvent task-switching measures.

On a side note, it is my understand that ICC does have the means to
block individual computers from logging in. Blitzin somehow identifies
your machine, using unique things like your windows serial number.
That is why trial members have to use the latest version of Blitzin.

Roger





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Old March 20th 04, 03:01 PM
2100USCF
 
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What an amazing creature the human being is. I would like to thank everyone
who responded to my inquiry on the news servers, and say that I appreciate
and hold in high regard their opinions and statements. Thx and a tip of the
hat to newsmail, roger, woodshifter, terry, brian, mikko, matt, and
especially bruno, for his thorough, insightful opinions. If anyone is not
mentioned please forgive this oversight. I do appreciate your comments.

I enjoyed each and every reply, even if the trollians had dropped in to ply
their wares. It was fun and I hope nobody took anything personal as I would
hate to be responsible for any hard feelings. Paying the $50 is not an
object for me, and I have thought about joining the ICC, but I will not be
bullied. My roots run from the old school, and I truly feel that everything
should be "free" on the internet, even though I realize that will never be
the case. In contradicting myself, I also believe that a person supplying a
service should be compensated for it, but only if those who make use of the
service are not forced to do so.

If I remember correctly, (unless I have my information mixed up,) it is my
understanding that ICC started as a free server run by the University of
Pittsburgh, and the 'owner' of ICC somehow 'took it over' and started
charging. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thanks again to all. This discussion was very helpful for me. Regards.

snip


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Old March 20th 04, 03:04 PM
Dan Pressnell
 
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"2100USCF" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

My roots run from the old school, and I truly feel that everything
should be "free" on the internet, even though I realize that will never be
the case.


My experience is that the greatest advocates of a free internet are those
who want to use it, but not participate in building it by donating their own
time and money.

Dan


  #8   Report Post  
Old March 20th 04, 06:31 PM
2100USCF
 
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Default banned from icc

New Development:

In my opening thread, I quoted a message received from ICC, namely

"Unregistered players from your site have been temporarily denied access

to
the ICC. This is probably because someone at your site was behaving
inappropriately, after several warnings. Please note this has no effect at
all on registered players from your site. They can login as usual. Also,

you
can register a new account using "r" at the login prompt, even if your

site
is filtered. Thanks! -- The Internet Chess Club"


This has been replaced with: "You are being kicked out by the
administrators."

I see now that I should have mentioned that I use the 'Winboard' interface.
It seems to make a difference here. In an effort to find out if my IP number
was the one filtered (as one responder suggested,) I fired up another
computer with a different IP and was kicked off. I then proceeded to
download Blitzen, and when installed, lo and behold, I was able to log on as
a guest and play. I went back to my original computer and received the same
new kicked-off message, so I installed Blitzen on that one too, and had no
trouble playing a number of games on ICC.

After experimenting with the piece and board settings, I found a combination
that I can live with. (Winboard graphics are much more my preference) If I
ever play there again.


  #9   Report Post  
Old March 20th 04, 10:47 PM
Michael Byrne
 
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Default banned from icc


If I remember correctly, (unless I have my information mixed up,) it is my
understanding that ICC started as a free server run by the University of
Pittsburgh, and the 'owner' of ICC somehow 'took it over' and started
charging. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thanks again to all. This discussion was very helpful for me. Regards.

snip


one version .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Chess_Club
==============================

Daniel Sleator's current webpage

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~sleator/
==============================

http://www.chessclub.com/about.html#history
History of ICC in their own words ....

The Internet Chess Club traces its roots to a loosely organized
community of chess players who recognized the potential for Internet
chess in the 1980s. In 1992, a small team of skilled programmers began
to rewrite the software to produce an elegant system that was
immediately welcomed by on-line chess players everywhere. It has been
operating continuously under the same management ever since.

==============================
Google searches

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...s.com&rnum=127

The idea for an internet chess server (ICS) as well as the original
server itself came from Michael Moore. .
Richard Nash created the ratings server (IRS).
Stanley Yamane wrote the board
display options, and the "bestmanager utility" was written by Jose
DeLeon .

Everything else was written by Daniel Sleator .

The following players deserve acknowledgement for significant help on
the project: Desmodus, Benoni, Stan, and Stark, Rahuls, MataPato,
router, observer, and onlooker.


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...edu&rnum=12 4

I'd like to make our chess server public. The code is in pretty good
shape now. (This is a very recent state of affairs. A week ago or so
we eliminated the so-called "irs" -- internet ratings server -- which
was a huge wart on the code, making it unreliable, brittle and
difficult to port.) The only thing stopping publication is the fact
that I haven't gotten the go-ahead from the other admins at valkyries.
I predict it will become public within a few days.

Is it really desirable to have, say, a dozen chess servers running all
over the place? Each with three players? Clearly not. With the
current demand, it seems that 2, or perhaps 3 would be optimum.

Darooha

==============================

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...edu&rnum=12 2

The incremental clock is something that I thought of and installed on
the internet chess server, ICS. (Of course I'm sure the idea has
occurred to many others.) After each move a constant (the increment)
is added to the time remaining for the player who just moved. My
implementation allows the time to go negative and return to positive.
The opponent can win on time only if he/she calls the flag while it is
non-positive.

I believe that the fischer clock is something quite different.
(Please correct me if my description is wrong.) With the Fischer
clock, a player is given a quantity of time, say 1 minute, at the
beginning of each move before which his/her "real" clock will begin to
decrease. So whether you move in 1 second or 1 minute makes
absolutely no difference. The fraction of the minute that you don't
use is NOT carried over to your real clock.

When the incremental clock was first installed on the ICS, many people
complained and refused to use it, because it was "non standard". Now
2/3 of the games played there use increments. A game "5 0", meaning
five minutes with zero increment, is indeed a different game than, say
"1 6". (one initial minute, with six second increment.) In my
opinion (just my opinion) it's a better game --- one that emphasizes
chess quality over the tyrrany of the clock. You can actually reach
an endgame, and play it out in civilized fashion.

Some people still do like zero increment games better. The reason
seems to be that even if your opponent has an overwhelming advantage,
there's still always that chance that he/she will run out of time
before mating you. Also having a good network connection gives you a
bigger advantage over your opponent with zero increment.

It's true that a 10 minute game (10 0) is guaranteed to end in at most
20 minutes. However it's occured to me that the "equivalent"
(assuming 40 moves) 2 12 game, may on average be shorter. This is
because a player seeing a clear loss will immediately resign. In the
10 0 game, the same player might play on hoping for a clock victory.

Daniel Sleator (Darooha)

==============================
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...edu&rnum=11 7

History and credits.

Michael Moore (of the University of Utah) and Richard Nash recognized
the potential for such a server, and programmed the first version of
the ICS. It came on-line in early 1992. John Chanak, William Kish,
and Aaron Putnam moved the server to a host machine at Carnegie Mellon
University (CMU) in the fall of 1992, and took over its operation.
The program has since been rewritten by Daniel Sleator.

Many others have helped in the creation and operation of the ICS. The
following individuals deserve special thanks: Shirish Chinchalkar,
Peter Jansen, Dannie Kjeldgaard, Tim Mann, Pappu L. N. Murthy, and
Stanley Yamane.

The networking resources for the ICS are provided by Carnegie Mellon
University.

==============================
oops they lost their server ...but they recovered ...

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...c.com&rnum=110



Can anyone help?

The North American Internet Chess Server (currently on
cirrus.gp.cs.cmu.edu) is looking for a new home. The European ICS (on
bentley.daimi.aau.dk) will be continuing, but network connectivity and
latency from North America to Europe often leaves something to be
desired, so a replacement site for the North American server would be
welcome.

Here is the information from the ICS message of the day. Send your
responses to Daniel Sleator , NOT TO ME. Thanks!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The facilities staff has requested that this server be permanently
removed from cirrus on July 9, 1993. If you are willing to host the
server even temporarily, please let me [Daniel Sleator] know
immediately. If no suitable host is found by July 9, there will be no
chess server in North America. If this happens, an effort will be
made to transfer the player accounts to bentley. Do "help newhost"
for more information.

[help newhost:]

The ICS has been at CMU for about a year now. It's time for somebody
else to host this service. I would like to continue to be the
maintainer of the code. (To make sure it remains reliable, and well
designed). I would therefore need an account on the new machine.

The load generated by the server is roughly the following:
CPU: negligible
Disk space: ~15 MB
Net Traffic: ~100 MB per day.

The server code is fairly portable -- should run on most unixes. In
order to make it convenient to maintain the code, the machine should
be fairly fast and run gnu-emacs. The host should also have good
connections to the network. Do "ping cirrus.gp.cs.cmu.edu" to find
out good your connection is. It would be best if the ping time was in
the 30 ms range -- but lets not be too picky.

Please contact me soon if you're interested in hosting the ICS for
some period of time. Thanks.

Darooha -- a.k.a. Daniel Sleator

==================================

they get a new one! ...this is all evidence that Daniel Sleator kept
ICS (old name before ICC) alive , up and running on his own with help
from others.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...c.com&rnum=110

The Internet Chess Server is currently running on:
telnet coot.lcs.mit.edu 5000
or
telnet 18.52.0.70 5000

The new FTP server for chess related data and software is
chess.uoknor.edu
or
129.15.10.254

===================================

an interesting comment from Michael Moore - who is the original author
of chess server software before it was re-written by Sleator ...

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...te.edu&rnum=96

Hmmm... I thought I did that. Perhaps you meant to say "willing
to write a solid server" and give it away for free. I would have
done
that if I had had the time. I'd do it now, if I had the time. But
to me the most important thing at the time was to prove that ICS was
a good idea, and to give an example of its implementation. I figured
if I could get people interested things would take off from there, and
others would emerge to take on the responsibility ICS entails.

I realize it didn't help that the server I wrote was bug-ridden,
to the extent that Daniel Sleator finally determined it would be
easier
to rewrite than debug. But I was right. People did get interested,
and others found it worth while to invest a good deal of time to
making
ICS solid and professional.

I respect the time they spent doing this. I feel they are
perfectly within their rights keeping control of the code. And even
if I didn't, it wouldn't matter, because they are completely within
their legal rights as well.

Personally, I would prefer they let others use the code. It
falls more in line with the reasons for which I wrote the orginal ICS.
The internet has benefited greatly because people have selflessly
given
of their time and efforts so that the whole might benefit.

Also, writing a chess server is not that hard. About the most
complicated algorithms you have to worry about are checking the
validity
of chess moves. Handling all of your clients and parsing their
commands
is straightforward. Producing compact output for interface programs
like GIICS is simply a matter of compacting data you already have.

I wrote the original ICS in 5 days. About 30 or 40 hours worth
of coding. To do the job right would probably take me about two or
three times that. If someone wants to pay me I'll happily prove it

Count your blessings; without what has been done, you would have no
server at all. In the future you may have the public-domain code
you crave, but not until somebody writes it and gives it away.


My understanding of the current situation is that there is
a server at MIT but there is a player limit, and so people are unable
to play chess there when they would like.

If that's true, then why doesn't someone just compile the old
server and let people use it while they can't get into the MIT one?
The old server works well enough most of the time. After all,
hundreds
of people used it for several months before Daniel even began
modifying
the code. Isn't ICS with annoying bugs better than no ICS at all?

-Michael Moore


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
======================================
forever did not last very long ....

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2....edu&rnum= 92

We have decided to postpone (probably forever) our proposal to
implement a commercial ICS. This is not because we decided that it is
a bad proposal, but simply because, based on the response, it would
probably not be sufficiently financially rewarding, it would be a lot
of work, and we have a lot of other important things to do.

We'll continue to run the server for free with all the current
features on the best host (or hosts) we can find. I'm looking at two
offers now. I think they will both have more lag than coot did.
Expect some moves in the near future while we look for the best place.

Vishnu has about finished implementing several new features that were
intended for the commercial ICS, including simuls, and the ability to
examine (play through) a library of stored games. Expect to see these
on the server in the near future.

I (Darooha) am still not convinced of the advantages of making the
code public. I find it humorous that some people's response to the
pay proposal was to offer money for the development of a free one!
Maybe if that money was offered to me, I would just release the code
now, and save everybody a lot of trouble! Make me an offer! :-)

There is a way to salvage much of the thinking (and legwork) we've
already put into the pay server proposal. Now that we've found a
commercial host, we could run grandmaster matches, simuls, and any
other pay events we wanted to. Only those who had bought tickets
could participate in the events. These events would be totally
independent of the ICS. If you want to get involved organizing such
events, let us know, and we can start to work on it.

Darooha, Vishnu, TheDane, AnteTempore


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=================================================

one does get a sense of betrayal from this post by Moore. But Michael
always acknowledges that what Daniel was completely within his legal
rights.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...sg%26rnum%3D89

Before I start, let me first state that I acknowledge that
everything the ICS maintainers have done has been within their rights.
Further, I acknowledge the tremendous amount of time and effort they
have put into the chess server. They have brought a level of respect
and officialness to ICS which it had previously lacked.

I complain because it violates the original spirit ICS was
made in. I developed it in the hopes others would take it and make
it into a solid, dependable chess server. This has happened. What
I didn't bother to consider at the time I wrote it was that those who
developed the code would not feel compelled to return it to
the public domain. Up until the time that Drooha and company received
the code, ICS had been maintained and improved by many different
people all freely donating their time and efforts.

But, regardless, there wasn't much I could have done to prevent
the situation. Some people feel it is a responsibility to keep things
like this in the public domain, and I am among them. But others don't
feel
that way, and I there is nothing I can do about it.

I will, however, plead with the ICS maintainers to at least
allow those wishing to develop servers for other games to use the
current ICS sources as a starting point. Retain your chokehold on
chess if you must, but please allow others to benefit as you
yourselves benefitted from the original ICS.

If this is already the case, then I am glad. If not,
I am extremely saddened, but as life has taught me well, that changes
little.

Sincerely,

-Michael Moore
(Original ICS author)
--
================================================== =====

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2... .edu&rnum=75

A better list fo credits:

VI. History and credits.
------------------------

Michael Moore (of the University of Utah) and Richard Nash
recognized the potential for such a server, and programmed the first
version of the ICS. It came on-line in early 1992. John Chanak,
William Kish, and Aaron Putnam moved the server to a host machine at
Carnegie Mellon University (CMU) in the fall of 1992, and took over
its operation. In last 2 years, ICS migrated from CMU to Massachusets
Institute of Technology (MIT), then to University of California at
Santa Barbara (UCSB) and finally settled at the University of Oklahoma
at Norman (UOKNOR).
In the last two years, ICS has been completely rewritten by
Daniel
Sleator (Professor of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University).

Many others have helped in the creation and operation of the ICS.
The following individuals deserve special thanks: Shirish Chinchalkar,
Aviv Friedman, Peter Jansen, Dannie Kjeldgaard, Tim Mann, Pappu L. N.
Murthy and Stanley Yamane.

================================================== ======================

out of all the posts - the interview by Tim Krabbe sums it best - at
least from Daniel's perspective .... in hindsight - Daniel
recognize that their would be commercial opportunity and demand for
recreational paid internets site , and his chess site was one of the
first to turn a profit and is a success story..

Michael Byrne

ICC "fitter"/"cpatwo" - original members of ICC - back then fitter
was a computer account with a "C" and "cpatwo" was my human account -
fitter is now human with no "C" and I no longer have the second
account.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e....NL.net&rnum=1

INTERVIEW WITH DANIEL SLEATOR by Tim Krabb‚

For an article in New In Chess magazine about Internet chess (which
will
appear mid-May) I had an interview with ICC's boss, Daniel Sleator aka
Darooha. As I only used little of it in my story, and it might be
interesting to rec.games.chess readers, here is more. The interview
was
held partly in ICC, and partly by email, between the end of March and
April 10th.

Perhaps coincidentally, but certainly appropriately, just as I was
asking
Darooha my first question, my screen nearly exploded with outcries
from
an obviously disgruntled ICS-member named Sneaker:

JOIN THE FREE INTERNET CHESS
SERVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do NOT support ICC!!!!! SAVE YOUR 50$!!!!!!!!!!
Commercialization of the ICC IS
BULL****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FICS will soon be BETTER than ICC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DAROOHA and POTZY are DEVIOUS, GREEDY CAPITALIST PIGS!!

And so on - somehow Sneaker had found a way of machinegunning his
shout
into my computer a thousand times over, so I had a large logfile to
clean
up later.
I shut off the channel Sneaker was using, and after Darooha had
come
back under another name so he wouldn't be bothered, we could talk
quietly.

- Did you see that coming when you went commercial?
Darooha: Oh yes. This is the crap I have to put up with. We knew there
would be a lot of noise about it. I have gotten a thicker skin from
all
of this.
- I followed the discussion on rgc. Many people seem to think the
commercialization of the ICS goes against the Internet spirit.
Darooha: I don't think it's fair to blame me for that. We moved the
ICC in
the direction that things are going. There is a trend toward more and
more
commercialization of the network. For example, the bridge server went
commercial last summer, and has been quite successful. At my own
university (Sleator teaches computer science at Carnegie Mellon - TK)
an
indexing service for WWW, which used to be free, is now commercial.
Many
firms are selling products and services on the net. We did not choose
this
direction. The nature of this place will change. Perhaps free and
commercial servers can coexist on the net.
- You were inviting new members on rec.games.chess when you already
knew
you were going commercial. Wasn't that at least against netiquette?
Can
you still place posts like that now?
Darooha: I don't see anything at all wrong with this. All the people
who
responded to those posts are now enjoying free membership in ICC
during
their grace periods. And they can still play on ICC free as
unregistered
players. We're continuing to announce events that are open to all on
rec.games.chess.
- It was only after a few days that you offered the student discount.
Does
that mean you hadn't really considered all the pros and cons of going
commercial?
Darooha: We had considered it, but decided for simplicity's sake not
to
have that discount. After hearing some of the arguments we decided
that it
was best to go for the student discount.
- How's the transition going?
Darooha: It's going quite well. We're getting paying members roughly
as
expected. Many new people have signed up.
- Did you want to cover expenses or make money?
Darooha: Our goal is to make a money making enterprise, but we're
planning
to put a lot back into it... we have to keep our membership. To make
this
really take off, and really distinguish from the other servers, we are
planning a lot of nice events and activities.
- It seems you want to change the nature of ICC, make it a more
serious,
elitist chess place.
Darooha: That will be a consequence of going commercial, yes. Roughly
speaking there are two very different types of users of the service.
People who were used to the free net culture, or not sufficiently
interested in chess to pay, and the more serious. Most of the people
here
to just shout and hug each other will probably be gone. I think the
commercialization will move this thing to a different level entirely.
There will be events of many kinds that I think will attract players
of
all levels.
- It has been suggested you should now pay the GM's. Will you?
Darooha: We already do. As well as the people giving the master
lectures.
- And the admins?
Darooha: So far, we have been able to find plenty of people to
volunteer
to do admin work.
- Your argument for going commercial that you had to cover $ 300
expenses
per month seemed misleading, as you asked for about 100 times that
amount.
Also, your argument of having had commercial offers seemed beside the
point, as that did not mean you HAD to commercialize.
Darooha: It was a mistake to mention the $300/month. It invited the
general public to get involved in a discussion of these issues. First
of
all, that doesn't even begin to cover the expenses of doing this,
which
includes: phone, mail, paying for GM's, paying the celebrities, paying
for
lecturers, paying for advertising, legal expenses, credit card
charges,
accounting fees. Secondly a large fraction of the 11000 accounts were
either dormant, or were used by people to hang out and not play. We're
hoping for something in the neighborhood of 1500 to 3000 members at
the
end of a year. (As of april 8th, there were 297 paying members -
projecting, as a file on ICC says, to 2852 by March 1st 1996 - TK.)
Third,
our idea is to make a profit. Not a huge profit, but something that is
commensurate with the effort that we've put into this. It makes no
sense
to go to the trouble to charge people and then ask so little that you
can't make enough to make it worthwhile.
About the other offers: After I got the offers, I was either going
to
accept an offer, or I was going to operate it as a pay server. I was
not
going to turn down a lucritive offer to sell this, simply for a
principle
that it should be a free service. I don't believe in that principle.
Let
me ask your opinion on something. Do you feel that the chess server is
a
"worthy cause", such as a charity for poor people or a library, or
grants
to scientific research? Or do you think it is more like a big video
game,
with kids spending thousands of hours, where people come in to play
games
and hang out, just basically wasting time?
- I see ICC as a place that offers something for my enjoyment.
Darooha: That is my view also. A recreational thing. Not a "worthy
cause".
If I had seen this as a "worthy cause", it would have been much harder
for
me to justify going commercial... justify it to myself, that is. I
just
watched what was happening here, how people used this, and it just
seemed
that it was like a big video game.
- Did you read Michael Moore's posting? (Moore was the original author
of
the chess server code - TK.)
Darooha: I know who he is. No. I didn't read his post.
- Well, he accuses you (so to speak) of hijacking his code.
Darooha: I didn't read the discussion on rec.games.chess.
- You didn't?
Darooha: I would probably feel compelled to respond and get involved
in a
draining and fruitless discussion.
- Moore said he wrote the code originally and you improved it.
Darooha: Ok. Well, first let me tell you about the code I started
with. It
didn't even say who wrote it. No copyright notices either. Just raw
code.
- But he wrote it?
Darooha: I don't know first-hand who wrote it.
- He wrote it, it seems nobody contests that.
Darooha: It has been claimed that Moore and Nash wrote it. That's the
first point. The 2nd point is this: it was a total mess. Chock full of
bugs and terribly disorganized. So much so that he wanted nothing to
do
with it. The 3rd thing is that none of it is left in the current
server.
- Then how can FICS look so much like ICC?
Darooha: Hehehe. Well, that's a funny story. When Nash wrote FICS, he
could have started with the code that I started with to build this.
But
that code was so bad, he just trashed it and started from scratch.
That's
how useless it was. He just copied all our basic features, so people
would
be familliar with it. You can ask him that.
- He copied ICC?
Darooha: Of course. Not the code, but the features and the style. Like
command abbreviation, style 12, the who display. Probably a lot of
other
things... I haven't been following them closely.
- So the statement: 'Moore wrote it and Sleator improved it' is not
correct?
Darooha: None of the original code is there. 'Moore wrote it and
Sleator
improved it' is too weak, if you ask me. The amount of new stuff I
added
dwarfs the original code, and there is no original code left. It did
evolve from his, yes. But by now it's all different.
- Do you feel you owe Moore?
Darooha: There's two different things here. One is if there's a legal
basis for the claim that I owe him something. The other is a moral
one. On
the legal front, clearly I owe him nothing. And given that (1) the
amount
of work I put in dwarfs anything he did and (2) I rewrote it all and
(3)
the code was so ugly, I don't owe anything on a "moral" front beyond
an
acknowledgement. It's like he built a shack out of cardboard, and
abandoned it. I discovered this rotting shack, and spent 2 years
gradually
turning it into a nice brick house. When I try to sell the house he
shows
up from nowhere, and says that it's his house and I can't sell it. So
I
feel that there are not even any moral issues to worry about.
- FICS seems to count on becoming at least as good as ICC, and for
free.
Are you afraid of them?
Darooha: I have never had any illusions that the software I wrote
cannot
be reproduced by competent programmers. Will they do it? I don't know.
It's interesting to note the level of detail which they have begun to
copy
the look and feel of my ICC. I'll accept that as a complement.
- There were posts saying you'd have to remunerate all the people who
helped make ICS/ICC into what it is now.
Darooha: Yes, many people have helped in the development of the ICS.
They
created interface programs, put in many hours as admins, wrote
automatic
tournament directors. I and all the other users of the ICC owe a great
deal to them. Free memberships in the ICC have been offered to all
those
who have made such significant contributions.
- $ 50 a year doesn't seem much for that.
Darooha: An analogy here would be to a textbook. Almost every textbook
has
benefitted from the comments by those using preliminary versions of
it.
Usually the author acknowledges their contribution in the book, and
perhaps gives them a free copy, but does not share the royalties with
them. Another fact is that all of these efforts were purely voluntary.
I
never requested anything from anybody who did not know the
commercialization plans. About six months ago, when it became clear
that
we were going commercial, I immediately moved the server off of the
educational site where we were running it, because it was not
appropriate
to accept that help after it was decided that we were going to launch
a
commercial venture. All the administrators have known about the
commercialization plans for many months.
- How many people are using timestamp now?
Darooha: I haven't calculated that statistic yet.
- Isn't there a way to force timestamp on everybody, so all the
lagflag
whining would be over?
Darooha: Some people connect through platforms that we don't have it
for.
Like VAX VMS. And we're trying to use it as an inducement for people
to
join up. I created it for the commercialization.
  #10   Report Post  
Old March 21st 04, 05:54 AM
newsnewsnews
 
Posts: n/a
Default banned from icc


"bruno de baenst" wrote in message
...
I saw a lot of people on wcn being banned because of cheating.
But if you use 2 computers to cheat, it must be almost impossible for the
admins to know if you cheat on any site. The only way they can know is

that
you always play same moves as computer program (and use more or less same
time between 2 moves). But as of course nobody has the time to look at all
games, there must be a suspicion of cheating first. And before some
suspicion is risen I think some weeks will have past.

Not only Icc but also Wcn and more than likely Playchess too have the
ability to block indivuals computers from logging in. They don't use

windows
serial number for that but they use ip(internet protocol)-adresses. But
people who know something about computers won't have much problems with

this
cause it isn't that hard to change your ip-adress when you are not on
dial-up.

In my opinion, the best sites are in order:
1) Wcn (www.worldchessnetwork.com) : A lot of great audio broadcasts,

audio
lectures , banter games (masters playing against eachother and explaining
moves to audience), audio fireside chat (where you can ask questions to a
master) , master challenges (where you can play masters), gold member
challenges (where you can play strong non-master players), master
tournaments (every two week +-50 masters play against eachother in

tourney.
Wcn also has the cleanest interface, and is constantly improving ( a
entirely new version is planned in spring 2004) , while Icc hasn't changed
much over time. There is also a good community feeling here, cause if you
play some weeks here, you get to know most people in chat.
Bad thing is that tourneys are often canceled cause not enough players,

also
people don't have a profile as they do have on Icc and playchess.
Cost: currently 49,95 dollars for 1 year 79,95 for 2 but often there are


discounts when there are special events, I bought my membership at 24,95
dollar, with dollars I won in tourneys so didn't pay anything really.
Free trial period : 15 days.

2)Icc (www.chessclub.com) : Biggest advantage for Icc is that there are

lots
of strong players playing here, if you are 2200+ then this site is

probably
the best, cause you will find few such strong players on Wcn (especially

on
5minute or more time control) . Also Icc broadcasts more tourneys than wcn
but without commentary. And on Icc you have the ability to play some chess
variants, as loserschess, atomic chess, ... . Bad thing is also the
interface (although there are lots of versions, but I haven't tried any

good
one), cause you have to type so many stupid commands while wcn is all
point-and-click. Also way to much chat rooms . The tournaments are very
frequent and good here though.
Cost: 49 dollars for 1 year. 89 dollars for two. I don't know if they

have
special actions here.
Free trial period: 2 times 2 weeks, wich you can take after eachother, or
with a period between

3)playchess(www.playchess.com): This site is also improving quite rapidly
but I find it a pretty overloaded interface, challenge and chat functions
are pretty bad here. And I very much hate the incredibly stupid feature of
premove,


premove is a fantastic innovation which adds to the skill level of a
blitz/bullet game dramatically. It allows the player who knows what he's
doing to convert winning positions even when very low on time. It is an
improvement over Fischer time controls as it won't add time to one's clock
or give someone an inordinate time *bonus* per move so it doesn't disturb
the evaluation of the time status. If you don't like premove, it is because
you either don't know how to use it. Or you are a weak player that wants to
keep the luck factor of the game at a maximum.



The best free site is probably the site of msn, www.zone.com .


the zone has got to be about the worst site there is. It has the worst
interface of any chess site I have seen. It is full of cheaters and
hackers. And the players that aren't cheating and hacking are too weak to
bother with. Also, the site doesn't even change the color if you have more
than one game with your opponent. Even Playsite is way better than msn
gaming zone.


Jason Repa


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