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Old September 3rd 05, 06:53 PM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default Where are engine-engine games stored?

I'm having fun with my newly-functional Shredder 7 interface.

I'm running a G/3 (minutes) contest between Shredder7 and Fruit, the free
engine. So far after 19 games Fruit is winning, 19-7.

My question is: Are these games stored anywhere? I have not been able to
find them. Some are quite fascinating.

Angelo


  #2   Report Post  
Old September 3rd 05, 09:14 PM
HD
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Angelo DePalma wrote:
I'm having fun with my newly-functional Shredder 7 interface.

I'm running a G/3 (minutes) contest between Shredder7 and Fruit, the free
engine. So far after 19 games Fruit is winning, 19-7.

My question is: Are these games stored anywhere? I have not been able to
find them. Some are quite fascinating.

Angelo



somethinglike:
documents and settings/"username"/documents/Chessbase/compbase/engtourn.cbh

"username" is probably you in your case

HD
  #3   Report Post  
Old September 3rd 05, 11:38 PM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default

THanks, HD. I'll check it out.

Engine-engine matches are incredibly interesting.

"HD" wrote in message
...
Angelo DePalma wrote:
I'm having fun with my newly-functional Shredder 7 interface.

I'm running a G/3 (minutes) contest between Shredder7 and Fruit, the free
engine. So far after 19 games Fruit is winning, 19-7.

My question is: Are these games stored anywhere? I have not been able to
find them. Some are quite fascinating.

Angelo


somethinglike:
documents and
settings/"username"/documents/Chessbase/compbase/engtourn.cbh

"username" is probably you in your case

HD



  #4   Report Post  
Old September 4th 05, 03:34 AM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Thanks, it was right where you said it would be.

By the way, after 121 games at G/3 minutes, the score is Fruit 63 - Shredder
58. At this time control Fruit appears to be as strong as Shredder. Some of
these games are absolutely amazing to watch.

Anyone interested in the game scores, let me know.

Angelo


"HD" wrote in message
...
Angelo DePalma wrote:
I'm having fun with my newly-functional Shredder 7 interface.

I'm running a G/3 (minutes) contest between Shredder7 and Fruit, the free
engine. So far after 19 games Fruit is winning, 19-7.

My question is: Are these games stored anywhere? I have not been able to
find them. Some are quite fascinating.

Angelo


somethinglike:
documents and
settings/"username"/documents/Chessbase/compbase/engtourn.cbh

"username" is probably you in your case

HD



  #5   Report Post  
Old September 4th 05, 06:54 AM
HD
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Angelo DePalma wrote:
Thanks, it was right where you said it would be.

By the way, after 121 games at G/3 minutes, the score is Fruit 63 - Shredder
58. At this time control Fruit appears to be as strong as Shredder. Some of
these games are absolutely amazing to watch.

Anyone interested in the game scores, let me know.

Angelo

Funny enough, both authors claims that their programs is bad, "or not so
good" at bullet/blitz... Most tests - also against other engines -
hasn't comfirmed that.
And yes, watching engines play, can be very fascinating!

HD


  #6   Report Post  
Old September 4th 05, 04:27 PM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default


I had the two engines play G/10 minutes + 3 seconds/move overnight, and so
far the result is Fruit 14, Shredder 13. I can't wait to see the slow games.


"HD" wrote in message
...
Angelo DePalma wrote:
Thanks, it was right where you said it would be.

By the way, after 121 games at G/3 minutes, the score is Fruit 63 -
Shredder 58. At this time control Fruit appears to be as strong as
Shredder. Some of these games are absolutely amazing to watch.

Anyone interested in the game scores, let me know.

Angelo

Funny enough, both authors claims that their programs is bad, "or not so
good" at bullet/blitz... Most tests - also against other engines - hasn't
comfirmed that.
And yes, watching engines play, can be very fascinating!

HD



  #7   Report Post  
Old September 4th 05, 10:44 PM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'd be happy to send you the games. Do you prefer PGN, ZIP, or CBV?

I'm very interested in implementing some of your ideas. The results would
make an interesting book!

By the way, Fruit won the G/10 match 16-14. So far we have played two G/60 +
3 seconds, and Fruit is ahead 2-0, and has a slight advantage in game 3.

My observations: Fruit tends to use considerably less time than Shredder at
all time controls, especially G/10 and longer. Fruit also appears to be a
deadly endgame player. In one of the G/60s it was down a (doubled) pawn with
rook-file passers on both sides, plus 2 rooks. I was about to adjudicate the
game as a draw but I'm glad I didn't because Fruit won handily. It was quite
a game.


wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 11:27:27 -0400, "Angelo DePalma"
using recycled electrons muttered
something
about:

I had the two engines play G/10 minutes + 3 seconds/move overnight, and so
far the result is Fruit 14, Shredder 13. I can't wait to see the slow
games.


Anyone interested in the game scores, let me know.


Angelo


Hi Angelo,

I would be interested in the having the games if you could zip them and
mail
them to:

dayffd at earthlink dot net.

Funny enough, both authors claims that their programs is bad, "or not so
good" at bullet/blitz... Most tests - also against other engines -
hasn't
comfirmed that.
And yes, watching engines play, can be very fascinating!

HD


The games can be especially interesting if the parameters are changed a
bit.
For example, when starting a tournament, instead of leaving the "book"
settings
at their default, try this: New Tournament/Invite Engine/ (pick an engine,
then
Edit the engine)/Book choice (pick a book, e.g. Fritz 8 book)/Book Options
(2nd
button down)/ click on "Normal" - note how the variety of play moves to
~80% -
and then increase (or not) the influence of the learn value slider and the
learning strength all the way to the right. Now, your engines will start
playing
things like King's Gambits, Faulkbeer Counter-gambits, Benko/Volga
gambits, and
other openings, some mainstream, others not so mainstream. The variety
increases tremendously.

Also, with some programs, Shredder being one, you can change the values of
the
pieces. Try dropping the value of a pawn by one or two, from 100 to 98 or
99.
Then have it prefer open games. Suddenly, Shredder will be much more
willing to
sacrifice a pawn to open a position up. This is not to say that Shredder
will be
stronger, indeed, it may even weaken it a bit, but the games can become
much
more interesting imo, and worth looking at closely if you like attacking
games.

You can also add to your opening books via File/Open/Opening books. Open
the
book of your choice. Then, under Edit,/Openings book, you can import
games,
combine opening books by "Import book",etc. Be careful, though, when
importing
games, the amount of space used up becomes enormous. Leave the cut off
number of
moves at the default of 20. Increasing this number results in humongous
files.

Anyways....


No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it.



  #8   Report Post  
Old September 4th 05, 10:46 PM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Actually the results of the G/10 + 3 secons was Fruit 18, Shredder 14.
That's a significant difference to me.


wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 11:27:27 -0400, "Angelo DePalma"
using recycled electrons muttered
something
about:

I had the two engines play G/10 minutes + 3 seconds/move overnight, and so
far the result is Fruit 14, Shredder 13. I can't wait to see the slow
games.


Anyone interested in the game scores, let me know.


Angelo


Hi Angelo,

I would be interested in the having the games if you could zip them and
mail
them to:

dayffd at earthlink dot net.

Funny enough, both authors claims that their programs is bad, "or not so
good" at bullet/blitz... Most tests - also against other engines -
hasn't
comfirmed that.
And yes, watching engines play, can be very fascinating!

HD


The games can be especially interesting if the parameters are changed a
bit.
For example, when starting a tournament, instead of leaving the "book"
settings
at their default, try this: New Tournament/Invite Engine/ (pick an engine,
then
Edit the engine)/Book choice (pick a book, e.g. Fritz 8 book)/Book Options
(2nd
button down)/ click on "Normal" - note how the variety of play moves to
~80% -
and then increase (or not) the influence of the learn value slider and the
learning strength all the way to the right. Now, your engines will start
playing
things like King's Gambits, Faulkbeer Counter-gambits, Benko/Volga
gambits, and
other openings, some mainstream, others not so mainstream. The variety
increases tremendously.

Also, with some programs, Shredder being one, you can change the values of
the
pieces. Try dropping the value of a pawn by one or two, from 100 to 98 or
99.
Then have it prefer open games. Suddenly, Shredder will be much more
willing to
sacrifice a pawn to open a position up. This is not to say that Shredder
will be
stronger, indeed, it may even weaken it a bit, but the games can become
much
more interesting imo, and worth looking at closely if you like attacking
games.

You can also add to your opening books via File/Open/Opening books. Open
the
book of your choice. Then, under Edit,/Openings book, you can import
games,
combine opening books by "Import book",etc. Be careful, though, when
importing
games, the amount of space used up becomes enormous. Leave the cut off
number of
moves at the default of 20. Increasing this number results in humongous
files.

Anyways....


No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it.



  #9   Report Post  
Old September 5th 05, 04:56 AM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm fascinated that you're interested in human-like computer play. I am
also, but not from the point of view of making the program stronger. I would
like to set an engine up so it plays human-like at the 2100-2200 level. I
think it would be a good opponent for me (I'm around 1900).

I'll send you those files as zipped PGN tomorrow or Tuesday. I'd like to
wait for the results of the G/60s.

BTW, as these engines become capable of beating a higher and higher
percentile of GMs, I believe human analysis is becoming irrelevant. There
was a time when a GM or strong IM could poke fun at chess engines. The term
"computer chess" was used in a derogatory manner to describe machines that
apparently did not possess the planning and strategic vision of humans. I
have a position from one of my games, where I beat a much-higher rated
player in a study-like ending. I saw the long series of moves that won the
game by force, but to this day my Shredder cannot.

Still, I would trade any 2600 player's (and probably any 2800 player's)
chess knowledge and strategy -- all the stock "plans" for playing the
canonical positions -- for the sheer calculating power of one of these top
engines. They will beat any Nimzoindian expert (or Kalashnikhov expert, or
Benoni expert, etc.) at their own game time after time. It is becoming
difficult, even silly, to argue with that kind of success.

What do you think?

Angelo

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 17:44:08 -0400, "Angelo DePalma"
using recycled electrons muttered
something
about:
I'd be happy to send you the games. Do you prefer PGN, ZIP, or CBV?


pgn files, zipped would be my preference.

What version of Fruit? Fruit 2.1 is the strongest.

I'm very interested in implementing some of your ideas. The results would
make an interesting book!


I've already made a couple of books, with some additional material. But
yes, a
book with GM analysis would be interesting.

I made a couple of settings for CMX (Chessmaster 10) that I've been
testing
against various engines in 10 minute blitz. The results have been good,
but so
far against fairly dated engines: Fritz 5.32, Nimzo 7.32, Hiarcs 7.32,
Zappa
1.0, and Crafty 18.15. I'm still running tests, but I doubt these settings
are
as good as others. These settings make Chessmaster 10 pretty aggressive,
but
also it seems to me the engine, with these settings, the play is nearly
indistinguishable from that of a strong human master, playing moves a
human
would make rather than a chess engine. Fascinating to watch!
No problem is so formidable that you can't just walk away from it.



  #10   Report Post  
Old September 5th 05, 05:01 PM
Solomon Nuffert
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi!

"Angelo DePalma"
Actually the results of the G/10 + 3 secons was Fruit 18, Shredder 14.
That's a significant difference to me.


Shredder 9? Or Shredder 7? or 7.04?
Do you used TBS?

Regards
SoloMoon


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