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Old October 20th 05, 02:37 PM
Ruud
 
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Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule

It's come to my attention that the development in tablebases, in a KRRNkrr
endgame there is a mate in 290. Replaying this I saw that in the first 50
moves there are no captures (or, obviously, pawnmoves).
How does this withstand the 50-move rule in chess?

Greetings from
Ruud


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Old October 20th 05, 03:30 PM
Anders Thulin
 
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Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule

Ruud wrote:
It's come to my attention that the development in tablebases, in a KRRNkrr
endgame there is a mate in 290. Replaying this I saw that in the first 50
moves there are no captures (or, obviously, pawnmoves).
How does this withstand the 50-move rule in chess?


Why should it? If your details are correct, how can there be a
mate in 290? Any decent player (human or computer) will claim a draw
after 50 moves, but perhaps the intention is to play only players who
have never heard of the rule?

--
Anders Thulin ath*algonet.se http://www.algonet.se/~ath

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Old October 20th 05, 04:05 PM
David Richerby
 
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Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule

Ruud wrote:
It's come to my attention that the development in tablebases, in a
KRRNkrr endgame there is a mate in 290. Replaying this I saw that in the
first 50 moves there are no captures (or, obviously, pawnmoves). How
does this withstand the 50-move rule in chess?


It doesn't. The player without the knight could claim a draw after 50
moves and this claim would be upheld. For a while, there were extensions
t othe 50-move rule to deal with cases like this but the extensions were
almost never used and they were removed from the rules. Most of these
extremely long mates are extremely unlikely to come up in practice and,
since the first 150 moves look completely random to a human being,
declaring them as draws is unlikely to make any practical difference even
if they do come up.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Old-Fashioned Gigantic Game (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a family board game but it's huge
and perfect for your grandparents!
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Old October 20th 05, 04:50 PM
Ruud
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule

Believe me, I have enough trouble with KNBk endgames within 50moves, but for
instance in Computerchessenginetournaments this 50move rule also aplies,
doesn't it?
An engine would play 290moves within no time at all, but I understand that
in the odd occasion(!) the tablebase manages to come to such a long
mate-win, it's a draw nevertheless.
I thought this rule was made to avoid players trying to push there opponent
through time-control back in the 20s and 30s (or when did they start using
clocks?) in draw-positions or to avoid general lack of inspiration by some,
but now the Tbs changes things for some brilliant chessplayers, who are able
to memorize 290moves.
Again, I'm not one, yet.

"David Richerby" schreef in bericht
...
Ruud wrote:
It's come to my attention that the development in tablebases, in a
KRRNkrr endgame there is a mate in 290. Replaying this I saw that in the
first 50 moves there are no captures (or, obviously, pawnmoves). How
does this withstand the 50-move rule in chess?


It doesn't. The player without the knight could claim a draw after 50
moves and this claim would be upheld. For a while, there were extensions
t othe 50-move rule to deal with cases like this but the extensions were
almost never used and they were removed from the rules. Most of these
extremely long mates are extremely unlikely to come up in practice and,
since the first 150 moves look completely random to a human being,
declaring them as draws is unlikely to make any practical difference even
if they do come up.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Old-Fashioned Gigantic Game (TM):
it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a family board game but it's
huge
and perfect for your grandparents!



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Old October 20th 05, 04:51 PM
Dr A. N. Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule

In article ,
Anders Thulin wrote:
Ruud wrote:
It's come to my attention that the development in tablebases, in a KRRNkrr
endgame there is a mate in 290. [...]
How does this withstand the 50-move rule in chess?

[...] [P]erhaps the intention is to play only players who
have never heard of the rule?


The intention is, surely, to seek out the truth? The table
will show the win in cases where it takes less than 50 moves, does
not need to be changed if FIDE ever changes the rule to 500 moves,
and is of [minor!] intellectual interest. If you play through the
290 move mate it is however [sadly, but not surprisingly] utterly
incomprehensible; there is no visible progress at all [to my eyes]
for well over 200 moves.

This is different from, eg, the KBBkn and KNNKp databases,
where the (white) moves are incomprehensible, but you can see over
a few moves that the noose is tightening. If you play through
enough of these beasties, you even start to see patterns, and to
think you might be able to do it yourself. I don't see patterns
at all in KRRNkrr, until very close to the end -- but perhaps that's
inevitable if it is to take 290 moves! [KNNkp includes many positions
where the 50-move rule influences tablebase play, making it important
to construct the databases by "distance to conversion" rather than
"distance to mate".]

--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.



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Old October 20th 05, 11:43 PM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule

Can someone email me this 290 move mate?

Are there websites where I can download the 7-piece table base?

Thanks,

Angelo


"Dr A. N. Walker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Anders Thulin wrote:
Ruud wrote:
It's come to my attention that the development in tablebases, in a
KRRNkrr
endgame there is a mate in 290. [...]
How does this withstand the 50-move rule in chess?

[...] [P]erhaps the intention is to play only players who
have never heard of the rule?


The intention is, surely, to seek out the truth? The table
will show the win in cases where it takes less than 50 moves, does
not need to be changed if FIDE ever changes the rule to 500 moves,
and is of [minor!] intellectual interest. If you play through the
290 move mate it is however [sadly, but not surprisingly] utterly
incomprehensible; there is no visible progress at all [to my eyes]
for well over 200 moves.

This is different from, eg, the KBBkn and KNNKp databases,
where the (white) moves are incomprehensible, but you can see over
a few moves that the noose is tightening. If you play through
enough of these beasties, you even start to see patterns, and to
think you might be able to do it yourself. I don't see patterns
at all in KRRNkrr, until very close to the end -- but perhaps that's
inevitable if it is to take 290 moves! [KNNkp includes many positions
where the 50-move rule influences tablebase play, making it important
to construct the databases by "distance to conversion" rather than
"distance to mate".]

--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.



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Old October 21st 05, 12:02 AM
Guy Macon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule



Angelo DePalma wrote:

Can someone email me this 290 move mate?


I think that something like that is worth posting in this newsgroup.


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Old October 21st 05, 05:12 AM
rlsuth
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule

Can your E-mail provider handle 700mb attachments?





"Angelo DePalma" wrote in message
news
Can someone email me this 290 move mate?

Are there websites where I can download the 7-piece table base?

Thanks,

Angelo


"Dr A. N. Walker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Anders Thulin wrote:
Ruud wrote:
It's come to my attention that the development in tablebases, in a
KRRNkrr
endgame there is a mate in 290. [...]
How does this withstand the 50-move rule in chess?
[...] [P]erhaps the intention is to play only players who
have never heard of the rule?


The intention is, surely, to seek out the truth? The table
will show the win in cases where it takes less than 50 moves, does
not need to be changed if FIDE ever changes the rule to 500 moves,
and is of [minor!] intellectual interest. If you play through the
290 move mate it is however [sadly, but not surprisingly] utterly
incomprehensible; there is no visible progress at all [to my eyes]
for well over 200 moves.

This is different from, eg, the KBBkn and KNNKp databases,
where the (white) moves are incomprehensible, but you can see over
a few moves that the noose is tightening. If you play through
enough of these beasties, you even start to see patterns, and to
think you might be able to do it yourself. I don't see patterns
at all in KRRNkrr, until very close to the end -- but perhaps that's
inevitable if it is to take 290 moves! [KNNkp includes many positions
where the 50-move rule influences tablebase play, making it important
to construct the databases by "distance to conversion" rather than
"distance to mate".]

--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.





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Old October 21st 05, 08:30 AM
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule

Ruud wrote:
Believe me, I have enough trouble with KNBk endgames within 50moves, but
for instance in Computerchessenginetournaments this 50move rule also
aplies, doesn't it?


Unless the tournament conditions specify otherwise, the 50-move rule will
be in force.

[...] the Tbs changes things for some brilliant chessplayers, who are
able to memorize 290moves.


Memorizing 290 moves doesn't help much at all -- unless you can see a
system in the moves, you're not going to be able to force mate from any
other position with the relevant material.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Beefy Tree (TM): it's like a tree
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ that's made from a cow!
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Old October 21st 05, 08:54 AM
Ruud
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tbs vs. 50-move rule

Here you a
http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/chess2/diary.htm

"Angelo DePalma" schreef in bericht
news
Can someone email me this 290 move mate?

Are there websites where I can download the 7-piece table base?

Thanks,

Angelo


"Dr A. N. Walker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Anders Thulin wrote:
Ruud wrote:
It's come to my attention that the development in tablebases, in a
KRRNkrr
endgame there is a mate in 290. [...]
How does this withstand the 50-move rule in chess?
[...] [P]erhaps the intention is to play only players who
have never heard of the rule?


The intention is, surely, to seek out the truth? The table
will show the win in cases where it takes less than 50 moves, does
not need to be changed if FIDE ever changes the rule to 500 moves,
and is of [minor!] intellectual interest. If you play through the
290 move mate it is however [sadly, but not surprisingly] utterly
incomprehensible; there is no visible progress at all [to my eyes]
for well over 200 moves.

This is different from, eg, the KBBkn and KNNKp databases,
where the (white) moves are incomprehensible, but you can see over
a few moves that the noose is tightening. If you play through
enough of these beasties, you even start to see patterns, and to
think you might be able to do it yourself. I don't see patterns
at all in KRRNkrr, until very close to the end -- but perhaps that's
inevitable if it is to take 290 moves! [KNNkp includes many positions
where the 50-move rule influences tablebase play, making it important
to construct the databases by "distance to conversion" rather than
"distance to mate".]

--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.





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