Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old March 9th 06, 05:58 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
Muggs
 
Posts: n/a
Default Moving both sides

Hello All,

I'm sure that this is a simple matter, but I can't figure it out.
I have Fritz9 and Arena. Is there any way that I can load a PGN file of a
game I'm playing so that I can move BOTH sides WITHOUT engine analysis?

I'm not talking about cheating, just being able to move both sides by myself
so that I can work out my next move.
If I try it in Arena with no engines loaded I get a "no engine loaded"
messeage after EACH move.
Fritz9 I just bought last weekend so I have NO idea how I would do it in
Fritz.

I'm sure that this is done all the time by serious players (which I am
definatly not a member of).

Any help would be appreciated.

Muggs


  #2   Report Post  
Old March 10th 06, 03:59 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
David Vancina
 
Posts: n/a
Default Moving both sides

Seems to me that Winboard would be a better choice for this activity.
My experience with Fritz is that there's a non-trivial possibility of
switching the engine on and seeing its suggested move. I don't know how
good you are, two seconds of Fritz' analysis is better than my best.
You could end up cheating w/o intending to do so.

Winboard's "Game Viewer" mode would eliminate this possibility, in that
there'd be no engine to switch on. That being said, Winboard certainly
doesn't have the Fritz UI's annotation capability. Maybe Chessbase
Light (also a free download) would be a better alternative.

Just some thoughts. Hope they help.

DJV

Muggs wrote:
Hello All,

I'm sure that this is a simple matter, but I can't figure it out.
I have Fritz9 and Arena. Is there any way that I can load a PGN file of a
game I'm playing so that I can move BOTH sides WITHOUT engine analysis?

I'm not talking about cheating, just being able to move both sides by myself
so that I can work out my next move.
If I try it in Arena with no engines loaded I get a "no engine loaded"
messeage after EACH move.
Fritz9 I just bought last weekend so I have NO idea how I would do it in
Fritz.

I'm sure that this is done all the time by serious players (which I am
definatly not a member of).

Any help would be appreciated.

Muggs


  #3   Report Post  
Old March 10th 06, 09:28 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Moving both sides

Muggs wrote:
I'm sure that this is a simple matter, but I can't figure it out. I
have Fritz9 and Arena. Is there any way that I can load a PGN file
of a game I'm playing so that I can move BOTH sides WITHOUT engine
analysis?


In Fritz 8 (I assume 9 is the same), Shift-Ctrl-M will turn off the
engine. Unfortunately, every time you load a game from the database,
the engine gets switched back on. If I had a dollar for every
annoying little misfeature like that in Fritz, well, I still wouldn't
be very rich but it would probably pay back the money I spent on it...


Dave.

--
David Richerby Poetic Cheese (TM): it's like a lump
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of cheese but it's in verse!
  #4   Report Post  
Old March 10th 06, 02:24 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Moving both sides

CeeBee wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
In Fritz 8 (I assume 9 is the same), Shift-Ctrl-M will turn off the
engine. Unfortunately, every time you load a game from the database,
the engine gets switched back on. If I had a dollar for every
annoying little misfeature like that in Fritz, well, I still wouldn't
be very rich but it would probably pay back the money I spent on it...


It isn't a misfeature, it's a choice.


A `feature' is something that the authors of the program chose to put
there, yes. I'm describing it as a `misfeature' because it is a
feature that is to the detriment of my experience as a user. (Well,
that's not true. I'm describing it as a `misfeature' as a euphemism
for `bug'.)


That's why ChessBase has CB9 in the package, for managing games and
databases. Fritz is a playing program with some added simple
database features.


*boggle* I'm at a complete loss to see how this is relevant. Why does
the fact that Fritz is a playing program with a simple database tacked
on the side mean that it is correct for it to throw away some of the
users settings when he loads a game from the database? Indeed, that I
have just loaded a game from a database would seem to me to be prima
facie evidence that I want to examine a game, not play chess. You
seem to be arguing that, since it isn't a dedicated database, it's
allowed to do arbitrary things; this is absurd.


Regardless how you think about the choice (ChessAssistant combines
playing and database completely) it doesn't mean there's something
wrong with the program.


The program doesn't do what I want it to do. Therefore, from my point
of view, the program is wrong. Of course, this is entirely relative
and there are other points of view.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Salted Radio (TM): it's like a radio
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ but it's covered in salt!
  #5   Report Post  
Old March 13th 06, 02:45 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Moving both sides

CeeBee wrote:
David Richerby wrote
Why does the fact that Fritz is a playing program with a simple
database tacked on the side mean that it is correct for it to throw
away some of the users settings when he loads a game from the
database? Indeed, that I have just loaded a game from a database
would seem to me to be prima facie evidence that I want to examine
a game, not play chess.


You can examine the game. You can load it and replay it step by step
without the engine intyerfering. You can analyze the game
automatically and replay it with the analysis. It's an added feature
that is present, but the main focus is "playing chess" not "using
database features".


But as soon as I try to investigate an alternative line by moving
pieces around on the board, the engine decides that I want to play a
game of chess against it from that position. It seems to me that,
having opened a game from the database, it is most likely that the
user wants to explore that game, not start playing against the engine
from some position in the middle.

But, further, before opening that game, the user explicitly turned the
engine off. He has already said, `I do not want to use the engine.'
Why does Fritz override that? It doesn't revert to the default board
style when I load a game from the database. It doesn't revert to the
default window layout. It doesn't revert to the default multimedia
settings or the default anything else. Why does it revert to the
default engine being switched on?


There are hordes who never save their games. They simply want to
play a game. Fritz provides that. It's main focus is playing, not
browsing databases or replaying games, thus every time it will offer
you play, not the database facility. The design is clear: you start
up with a playing environment in Fritz, and with a database
environment in CB9.


I agree that Fritz *starts up* as a playing program. But look. Fritz
allows me to turn the engine off. That's fine, I have to do it
explicitly because it's a playing program where the default behaviour
is playing chess. Now, I load a game from the database. Fritz turns
the engine back on again. Why? I've told it I want the engine to be
off. Sure, if I tell it to start a new game, it should turn the
engine back on; but why when I load a game from the database?


If I start Fritz, I want to play chess. I don't want a 'bug' that
leaves the engine dead in the water because it assumes that I bought
a chess engine to replay games manually.


How is it a bug for the engine to stay off *when I turn it off*? I'm
not asking for the engine to silently turn itself off. All I'm asking
is that, if I turn the engine off, it should stay off until I turn it
back on again. I don't even mind if I have to switch it on again when
I restart Fritz.

If Fritz behaved like this, it would make absolutely no difference to
users who do not use the database functions but it would make life
easier for those who do. Surely, that's an improvement?


You seem to be arguing that, since it isn't a dedicated database,
it's allowed to do arbitrary things; this is absurd.


If there's something absurd, it's your argumentation that your
incorrect choice for a type of program is a clear indication that
there's something arbitrary about choices of features.


I bought Fritz because it's an engine and enough of a database for my
needs. Your argument appears to be, `Because Fritz is not a
fully-functional database, it is acceptable for it to implement badly
those functions that it does implement.' I think that's codswallop.


There's nothing arbitrary about the distinction between a playing
program and a database program. The distinction between a database
program being a dedicated database program and a playing program not
being a dedicated database program. The chouice isn't arbitrary at
all, it is crystal clear.


The arbitrariness comes in the decision about how this not-a-dedica-
ted-database should implement its cut-down database features.


A bug is a feature that doesn't work properly. The replaying option
works flawless. There is no bug. Nor is there a design flaw.


Could you explain to me why it's a good idea to turn the engine on
every time the user opens a game from the database?



--
David Richerby Pointy-Haired Tool (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ hammer that's completely clueless!


  #6   Report Post  
Old March 14th 06, 12:24 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Moving both sides

CeeBee wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
But as soon as I try to investigate an alternative line by moving
pieces around on the board, the engine decides that I want to play a
game of chess against it from that position.


No. In Fritz 8 and 9 the engine _stays_ switched off, no matter how
many variations you add or how many moves you take back and play
forward.


Correct.


[...] As soon as you load another game, the checkmark will disappear
and the engine will start responding until you switch it off again -
there you are absolutely correct.


This is the situation I'm describing. This is either a bug or a
design decision that I strongly disagree with, for the reasons I've
stated upthread.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Mouldy Homicidal Tool (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a hammer but it wants to kill you and
it's starting to grow mushrooms!
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
winboard starts moving the pieces as soon as I load a game PeteJohnsonNews rec.games.chess.computer (Computer Chess) 1 December 5th 05 07:35 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:29 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Chess"

 

Copyright © 2017