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Old December 19th 03, 05:48 PM
chess4us
 
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Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729

Has anyone noticed any problems with this program and pgn files?

I have been working with some pgn files that I have opened over and over
again for the last few weeks, a few of the databases appeared to be getting
smaller, these were some of my games. At first I thought ok I didn't save a
file..no big deal, but when the program locked up and I ended the program
and brought it back up I lost about 73 games.

Anyone else notice anything about PGN files.

Thanks


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Old December 19th 03, 10:30 PM
Fn39k
 
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Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729

I think your problem maybe in program memory (do you have enough RAM to carry
out the commands). What is the configuration of your computer is important. You
should report this to this newsgroup.

cheers, Fraynels
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Old December 20th 03, 01:21 AM
Robert Pawlak
 
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Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729

Hi,

While I have not seen problems with the PGN handling on build 729, I use PGN
for import and export only.

I would suggest that you send the file in question to Sasha at Convekta
support. The chance is slim, but by examining the file, they might find a fix,
assuming there is one (problem or fix). Also, if you used any other program to
access the file, it could be a culprit as well.

The second thing that you should do is stop using PGN for storing games. There
are several good reasons for this. First of all, PGN is a flat file format, and
is not designed for random access. It also does not have standardized support
for many CA 7 features like a normal CA database would. To get around this, CA
uses proprietary markups in the PGN files. Chessbase and Informant do the same
thing.

If you want to use PGN, use it for import and export only. By using CA format,
database operations will be much faster, and you'll be able to use more of CA's
features.

I would give this recommendation to you if you were using any other database,
including Chessbase, CIE, or Chess Academy.

BTW, there are quite a few CA questions on the Chessreviews mailing list. You
can join (free) at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chessreviews/join

Bob Pawlak (remove 1et.tw to e-mail)
Chess Assistance
http://www.chessassistance.com
Chess Reviews
http://www.chessreviews.com


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Old December 20th 03, 02:14 AM
Odd Gunnar Malin
 
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Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729


"Robert Pawlak" skrev i melding
...
Hi,

While I have not seen problems with the PGN handling on build 729, I use

PGN
for import and export only.




Ex.
[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date ""]
[Round ""]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result ""]
[Eco ""]
[Annotator ""]
[Source ""]

1.e4 c6 {%30^002 %30^005 %30^025} 2.d4 d5 3.Z0 ( 3.exd5 ) *

Odd Gunnar

I would suggest that you send the file in question to Sasha at Convekta
support. The chance is slim, but by examining the file, they might find a

fix,
assuming there is one (problem or fix). Also, if you used any other

program to
access the file, it could be a culprit as well.

The second thing that you should do is stop using PGN for storing games.

There
are several good reasons for this. First of all, PGN is a flat file

format, and
is not designed for random access. It also does not have standardized

support
for many CA 7 features like a normal CA database would. To get around

this, CA
uses proprietary markups in the PGN files. Chessbase and Informant do the

same
thing.

If you want to use PGN, use it for import and export only. By using CA

format,
database operations will be much faster, and you'll be able to use more of

CA's
features.

I would give this recommendation to you if you were using any other

database,
including Chessbase, CIE, or Chess Academy.

BTW, there are quite a few CA questions on the Chessreviews mailing list.

You
can join (free) at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chessreviews/join

Bob Pawlak (remove 1et.tw to e-mail)
Chess Assistance
http://www.chessassistance.com
Chess Reviews
http://www.chessreviews.com




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Old December 20th 03, 04:16 PM
Robert Pawlak
 
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Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729


1.e4 c6 {%30^002 %30^005 %30^025} 2.d4 d5 3.Z0 ( 3.exd5 ) *


As Odd Gunnar has so eloquently demonstrated, this is what you get in the PGN
file when you use some of the special features in CA, like classes, markers,
empty moves, etc. The only real show stopper for some programs *might* be the
Z0 (empty move). Everything else should be parsed as a comment.

So the above is not a *problem*. It is the only way for CA to store something
in PGN format, and then be able to read it back and recover the special game
annotations that it supports.

What is a problem (and I think is tangentially related to the original poster's
question), is that unchecking the "Use CA markups in PGN" setting, does not
automatically remove all this stuff from exported PGN.

The PGN spec is currently being revised, with support for some of the program
specific markups. Convekta, Chessbase, and others are involved in the new spec.
When will it be published? I don't know. There was a post from Steven Edwards
on the CCC about it, but I can't recall the exact content.

Bob Pawlak (remove 1et.tw to e-mail)
Chess Assistance
http://www.chessassistance.com
Chess Reviews
http://www.chessreviews.com




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Old December 20th 03, 07:00 PM
Odd Gunnar Malin
 
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Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729


"Robert Pawlak" skrev i melding
...

1.e4 c6 {%30^002 %30^005 %30^025} 2.d4 d5 3.Z0 ( 3.exd5 ) *


As Odd Gunnar has so eloquently demonstrated, this is what you get in the

PGN
file when you use some of the special features in CA, like classes,

markers,
empty moves, etc. The only real show stopper for some programs *might* be

the
Z0 (empty move). Everything else should be parsed as a comment.


Sorry but only valid line in my output was the blank line between the header
and the move. No other lines was correct.
And for these comment, you think it's nice to see those in an output.

What is a problem (and I think is tangentially related to the original

poster's
question), is that unchecking the "Use CA markups in PGN" setting, does

not
automatically remove all this stuff from exported PGN.


So what is the purpose of unchecking 'Use CA markups' if it still use them?

The result from CA is in a such state that no one would use it to exchange
games with others before it have been run through utilities like 'fixcapgn'
etc.

Odd Gunnar


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Old December 20th 03, 10:09 PM
Robert Pawlak
 
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Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729

Sorry but only valid line in my output was the blank line between the header
and the move. No other lines was correct.
And for these comment, you think it's nice to see those in an output.


The header lines were fine. There is nothing wrong with an empty string for
those fields (especially if they are not defined). As for the comment, you are
putting words in my mouth. What I said was that it was the way in which CA
preserves the information that is not currently representable by "normal" PGN
codes or NAGs. For instance, there is no NAG for any of the class markers.

So what is the purpose of unchecking 'Use CA markups' if it still use them?


If you read my original message:

What is a problem (and I think is tangentially related to the original

poster's
question), is that unchecking the "Use CA markups in PGN" setting, does

not
automatically remove all this stuff from exported PGN.


I said that this was a problem. If you look at the first four words "What is a
problem", you will note that the word "problem" is used. I'm sorry you missed
that, but you need to read the post more carefully.

What I have done is e-mailed the head developer at Convekta regarding this
setting.

BTW, if you start Chessbase/Fritz, you will find that they read this file.
There is no need to resort to PGN filtering software. Other software may or may
not read it; Chessbase has a reasonably robust PGN parser.








Bob Pawlak (remove 1et.tw to e-mail)
Chess Assistance
http://www.chessassistance.com
Chess Reviews
http://www.chessreviews.com


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Old December 22nd 03, 09:38 AM
David Richerby
 
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Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729

Robert Pawlak wrote:
Somebody wrote:
The same person had written:
[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date ""]
[Round ""]
[White ""]
[Black ""]
[Result ""]
[Eco ""]
[Annotator ""]
[Source ""]

1.e4 c6 {%30^002 %30^005 %30^025} 2.d4 d5 3.Z0 ( 3.exd5 ) *


Sorry but only valid line in my output was the blank line between the
header and the move. No other lines was correct.
And for these comment, you think it's nice to see those in an output.


The header lines were fine. There is nothing wrong with an empty string
for those fields (especially if they are not defined).


(Could people please attribute quoted text?)

You're both wrong. The Result field must be one of 1-0, 0-1, 1/2-1/2 or
*. Eco, Annotator and Source may be empty as they are not madatory tags.
An unknown date should be "????.??.??" but it's unclear from the PGN
`spec' whether empty strings are valid elsewhere in the seven-tag roster,
e.g., to specify that the date is irrelevant rather than unknown.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Mouldy Mexi-Beer (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ refreshing lager that comes from
Mexico but it's starting to grow
mushrooms!
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Old December 22nd 03, 01:02 PM
Robert Pawlak
 
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Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729


You're both wrong. The Result field must be one of 1-0, 0-1, 1/2-1/2 or
*. Eco, Annotator and Source may be empty as they are not madatory tags.
An unknown date should be "????.??.??" but it's unclear from the PGN
`spec' whether empty strings are valid elsewhere in the seven-tag roster,
e.g., to specify that the date is irrelevant rather than unknown.


OK David, thanks for the info. For others that want to take a look at the spec:
http://www.very-best.de/pgn-spec.htm

The temptation is to think about this (or any other spec) as something devoid
of all ambiguity, which is not the case. That being said, some programs adhere
better to the spec than others. Others have a more robust interpretation, and
better error handling when reading the files.

To summarize:
- Proprietary codes should be removed when the "Use CA markups in PGN" is not
checked.
- Result field should be filled in (with * in this case).
- There is a difference between an unknown field and one that has no value. An
example might be a study position, in which there is no black or white player.
I'm not quite sure what to do about this one. The spec needs an update.



Bob Pawlak (remove 1et.tw to e-mail)
Chess Assistance
http://www.chessassistance.com
Chess Reviews
http://www.chessreviews.com


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Old December 22nd 03, 01:27 PM
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Chess Assistant 7.1-Build 729

Robert Pawlak wrote:
The temptation is to think about this (or any other spec) as something
devoid of all ambiguity, which is not the case.


Any spec should be without ambiguity. There's nothing wrong with saying
`you should do this but you must be able to accept input where it hasn't
been done' but the spec itself shouldn't be ambiguous.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Pickled Mouldy Tool (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ handy household tool but it's starting
to grow mushrooms and preserved
in vinegar!
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