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Old December 20th 03, 12:50 AM
Marco
 
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Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

I managed to do it, running both programs on my Dell Inspiron
1100 with 2 GHz, 256 MB RAM. Neither program was running as
the main task. I left each program think one whole minute
(with infinite analysis) before forcing it to move. Here is
the game, it was a boring draw but it seems to the uninitiated
me that CM played a slightly better game. Fritz was less
drawish than CM towards the end.

Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 (1.0)

1. e4 e6 2. Ne2 d5 3. Ng3 dxe4 4. Nxe4f5 5. Ng3 Nc6 6. Bc4 h5
7. d3 h4 8. Ne2 h3 9. Rg1 Ne5 10. Bf4 Nxc4 11. dxc4 Qxd1+
12. Kxd1 c5 13. Nbc3 Bd7 14. gxh3 Rxh3 15. Ke1 Nf6 16. Rd1 a6
17. Rd3 Rh4 18. f3 b5 19. Bg3 Rh7 20. Rd2 Kf7 21. Nf4 bxc4
22. h4 Be7 23. Nh3 Rh6 24. Ng5+ Ke8 25. Kd1 Ra7 26. Re1 Nh7
27. f4 Nxg5 28. hxg5 Rh3 29. Bf2 g6 30. Kc1 Kf7 31. a3 Rb7
32. Re3 Rh1+ 33. Re1 Rxe1+ 34. Bxe1 Bc6 35. Bg3 Rd7 36. Rxd7 Bxd7
37. Kd2 Bd8 38. Bh4 e5 39. fxe5 Ke6 40. Ke3 Kxe5 41. Bg3+ Ke6
42. Bf4 Bc6 43. Nb1 Be7 44. Nd2 Ba4 45. c3 Kd5 46. Nf3 Bd8
47. Nh4 Be8 48. Nf3 a5 49. Bb8 a4 50. Kf4 Ba5 51. Ke3 Bb6
52. Ne5 Bd8 53. Kf4 Be7 54. Nf3 Kc6 55. Be5 Bf8 56. Bb8 Kb7
57. Be5 Kb6 58. Bb8 Kc6 59. Ke5 Kd7 60. Kf6 Be7+ 61. Kg7 Ke6
62. Bf4 Kd5 63. Nd2 Kc6 64. Nf3 Kd5 65. Nd2 Ke6 66. Nf3 Bd8
67. Kf8 Bd7 68. Nh4 Kd5 69. Nxg6 Ke4 70. Kf7 Bc6 71. Kf8 Bd7
72. Kf7 Bc6 73. Kf8 Bd7 1/2-1/2

Marco


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Old December 20th 03, 02:34 PM
Damir Ulovec
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

I don't know about CM9k and Fritz 8 (F8 is a bit better engine than F7), but
what I see with CM8k is that he plays much more interesting (I will not say
"human-like", but almost) games, and I really enjoy to watch this coordinated
playing with all pieces on the board, not prefering the queen as the top (most
valuable) piece.
---
Try ChessMaster's The King vs ChessBase engines on two exactly the same
computers (two computer match), and see how swiftly CM wins...

"Marco" wrote in message
news:[email protected] e.mailgate.org...
I managed to do it, running both programs on my Dell Inspiron
1100 with 2 GHz, 256 MB RAM. Neither program was running as
the main task. I left each program think one whole minute
(with infinite analysis) before forcing it to move. Here is
the game, it was a boring draw but it seems to the uninitiated
me that CM played a slightly better game. Fritz was less
drawish than CM towards the end.

Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 (1.0)

1. e4 e6 2. Ne2 d5 3. Ng3 dxe4 4. Nxe4f5 5. Ng3 Nc6 6. Bc4 h5
7. d3 h4 8. Ne2 h3 9. Rg1 Ne5 10. Bf4 Nxc4 11. dxc4 Qxd1
12. Kxd1 c5 13. Nbc3 Bd7 14. gxh3 Rxh3 15. Ke1 Nf6 16. Rd1 a6
17. Rd3 Rh4 18. f3 b5 19. Bg3 Rh7 20. Rd2 Kf7 21. Nf4 bxc4
22. h4 Be7 23. Nh3 Rh6 24. Ng5 Ke8 25. Kd1 Ra7 26. Re1 Nh7
27. f4 Nxg5 28. hxg5 Rh3 29. Bf2 g6 30. Kc1 Kf7 31. a3 Rb7
32. Re3 Rh1 33. Re1 Rxe1 34. Bxe1 Bc6 35. Bg3 Rd7 36. Rxd7 Bxd7
37. Kd2 Bd8 38. Bh4 e5 39. fxe5 Ke6 40. Ke3 Kxe5 41. Bg3 Ke6
42. Bf4 Bc6 43. Nb1 Be7 44. Nd2 Ba4 45. c3 Kd5 46. Nf3 Bd8
47. Nh4 Be8 48. Nf3 a5 49. Bb8 a4 50. Kf4 Ba5 51. Ke3 Bb6
52. Ne5 Bd8 53. Kf4 Be7 54. Nf3 Kc6 55. Be5 Bf8 56. Bb8 Kb7
57. Be5 Kb6 58. Bb8 Kc6 59. Ke5 Kd7 60. Kf6 Be7 61. Kg7 Ke6
62. Bf4 Kd5 63. Nd2 Kc6 64. Nf3 Kd5 65. Nd2 Ke6 66. Nf3 Bd8
67. Kf8 Bd7 68. Nh4 Kd5 69. Nxg6 Ke4 70. Kf7 Bc6 71. Kf8 Bd7
72. Kf7 Bc6 73. Kf8 Bd7 1/2-1/2

Marco


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Old December 20th 03, 06:52 PM
George
 
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Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

"Damir Ulovec" wrote in message ...
I don't know about CM9k and Fritz 8 (F8 is a bit better engine than F7), but
what I see with CM8k is that he plays much more interesting (I will not say
"human-like" but almost) games,


CM8000 plays much more interesting that what engine?

and I really enjoy to watch this coordinated
playing with all pieces on the board, not prefering the queen as the top (most
valuable) piece.
---
Try ChessMaster's The King vs ChessBase engines on two exactly the same
computers (two computer match), and see how swiftly CM wins...


It depends.If it is CM9000_Default Vs Fritz 5.32 or Fritz 6, yes CM is
better.
But if it is CM8000_Default Vs Fritz 8 or Junior 8 then no chance for
CM8000.
If it is CM9000_Default Vs Fritz 8 or Shredder 7.04 then CM loses.

The best ChessMaster for me except 9000(it is the strongest and the
best
overall(amazing graphics, Winboard-PGN-FEN compability....)) is
CM5000.
Although many say it's graphics was for children, i disagree. The
wooden backround was brilliant. And the sounds for moves were
spectacular. I even liked when i was being mated.
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Old December 20th 03, 07:29 PM
Lars
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

In article , says...
If it is CM9000_Default Vs Fritz 8 or Shredder 7.04 then CM loses.


No not correct!

http://www.utzingerkurt.com/cm9_skr_report.htm

Program Score % Av.Op. Elo + - Draws

1 The King 3.23 SKR : 554.5/900 61.6 2460 2542 19 19 35.9 %
2 Shredder 7.04 : 25.5/ 50 51.0 2544 2550 101 61 46.0 %
3 Deep Fritz 7 : 25.0/ 50 50.0 2544 2544 73 73 48.0 %
4 Chess Tiger 15.0 ob : 25.0/ 50 50.0 2544 2544 70 70 52.0 %
5 Fritz 8 : 24.5/ 50 49.0 2544 2537 75 101 30.0 %
6 Shredder 7 : 24.0/ 50 48.0 2544 2530 67 99 40.0 %
7 Chess Tiger 14.0 : 23.5/ 50 47.0 2544 2523 69 98 38.0 %
8 Chess Tiger 15.0 : 23.5/ 50 47.0 2544 2523 62 98 46.0 %
9 Gambit Tiger 2.0 ag : 20.0/ 50 40.0 2544 2473 76 89 36.0 %
10 Hiarcs 8 : 18.5/ 50 37.0 2544 2451 71 85 42.0 %
11 Ruffian 1.0.1 : 17.5/ 50 35.0 2544 2436 93 83 26.0 %
12 Gandalf 4.32f : 17.0/ 50 34.0 2544 2428 92 82 28.0 %
13 List 504 : 17.0/ 50 34.0 2544 2428 81 82 36.0 %
14 Nimzo 7.32 : 17.0/ 50 34.0 2544 2428 98 82 24.0 %
15 Aristarch 4.4 : 14.5/ 50 29.0 2544 2388 102 78 26.0 %
16 Crafty 18.15 : 14.0/ 50 28.0 2544 2379 80 77 40.0 %
17 SOS.3 for Arena : 14.0/ 50 28.0 2544 2379 94 77 32.0 %
18 Junior 7 : 13.0/ 50 26.0 2544 2362 111 75 24.0 %
19 Yace 0.99.56 : 12.0/ 50 24.0 2544 2343 99 73 32.0 %



--
Best regards

Lars
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Old December 20th 03, 10:42 PM
Damir Ulovec
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

George, I will not fight here against you, or anybody else. I'm sick of this
minor lies about ChessBase's *great* engines. It's nothing but advertising...
Once upon the time was VHS vs Betamax. I'm still for Betamax.
---
Try ChessMaster's The King vs ChessBase engines on two exactly the same
computers (two computer match), and see how swiftly CM wins...

"George" wrote in message
om...
SNIP




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Old December 20th 03, 11:35 PM
Marco
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

"Damir Ulovec" wrote in message


George, I will not fight here against you, or anybody else. I'm sick of this
minor lies about ChessBase's *great* engines. It's nothing but advertising...
Once upon the time was VHS vs Betamax. I'm still for Betamax.


You seem to be right. I staged a couple more games between the
two and Fritz got soundly thrashed in both of them. Here is one
of the games, together with Fritz's own analysis. Incidentally,
I'm not using the 1.02 patch for CM, because I don't like some
of its side effects.
I'm a bit disappointed, I'd thought Fritz was the best, it turns
out CM is better. I wonder why Fritz is so much more expensive.

[Event "Blitz:10'"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2003.12.20"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Fritz 8"]
[Black "Chessmaster 9000"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A28"]
[Annotator "Fritz 8 (45s)"]
[PlyCount "56"]

{A28: English Opening: Four Knights Variation} 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3.
Nf3 Nf6
4. e3 Bb4 5. Qc2 O-O 6. Nd5 Re8 7. Qf5 d6 8. Nxf6+ gxf6 9. Qh5 d5 10.
cxd5 Qxd5
11. Be2 Be6 12. a3 {last book move} Bf8 13. d4 exd4 14. Qh4 d3 {
Black advances the passed pawn} 15. Qg3+ Bg7 16. Bf1 Ne5 17. Bd2 Rad8
18. Nd4 (
18. Rc1 $142 $5 $17) 18... c5 $19 19. Nxe6 (19. Qxe5 {[%emt 0:00:00]}
Bg4 {
[%emt 0:00:00]}) 19... fxe6 20. Rd1 (20. h4 Nc4 21. Qf3 f5 22. Qxd5 Rxd5
$19 (
22... exd5 $6 23. Bxd3 Nxb2 24. Bxf5 $19)) 20... Nc4 21. f3 (21. h4 Nxb2
22.
Rc1 Qa2 $19) 21... Nxb2 (21... Nxd2 $6 22. Rxd2 Qa2 23. Qc7 $19) 22. e4
(22.
Rc1 {does not help much} Nc4 23. Qf2 f5 $19) 22... Qa2 23. Bh6 (23. Rc1
{
doesn't change the outcome of the game} Nc4 (23... Qxa3 $6 24. h4 $19)
24. Rxc4
Qxc4 $19) 23... Re7 (23... Rd7 $142 {and Black can already relax} 24.
Bxg7 Rxg7
25. Qf2 Qxa3 26. Rc1 $19) 24. Be2 (24. Rc1 {is no salvation} d2+ $1 {
Theme: Clearance for d8-d2} 25. Bxd2 Rxd2 $19) 24... Red7 (24... Kh8 {
might be the shorter path} 25. Be3 Ree8 26. Rd2 dxe2 27. Kxe2 Rxd2+ 28.
Bxd2
Qc4+ 29. Kf2 Qd4+ 30. Be3 Nd3+ 31. Ke2 Qb2+ 32. Bd2 $19) 25. Rd2 (25. f4
{
is not the saving move} dxe2 26. Qxg7+ Rxg7 27. Rxd8+ Kf7 28. Bxg7 Qb1+
29.
Kxe2 Qxh1 $19) 25... dxe2 26. Bxg7 Qb1+ (26... Rxd2 $4 {
has the one big disadvantage in 3} 27. Bxf6+ Kf8 28. Qg7+ Ke8 29. Qe7#)
27. Kf2
Nd1+ (27... Qxh1 $6 {is impossible} 28. Bh6+ Kh8 29. Bg7+ Kg8 30. Bh6+
Kh8 31.
Bg7+ Kg8 $11) 28. Ke1 Nc3+ (28... Nc3+ 29. Kf2 e1=B+ (29... Qxh1 $6 {
succumbs to} 30. Bh6+ Kh8 31. Bg7+ Kg8 32. Bh6+ Kh8 33. Bg7+ Kg8 $11)
30. Rxe1
Rxd2+ 31. Kf1 Qd3+ 32. Kg1 Nxe4 33. Rxe4 Rd1+ 34. Re1 Rxe1+ 35. Qxe1 Qd1
$19) (
28... Rxd2 $4 {is followed by mate in 3} 29. Bxf6+ Kf8 30. Qg7+ Ke8 31.
Qe7#) (
28... Rxg7 $4 {the bishop mustn't be touched} 29. Rxd8+ Kf7 30. Rd7+ Ke8
31.
Qxg7 Ne3+ 32. Kxe2 Qb5+ 33. Rd3 $18) 0-1



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Old December 20th 03, 11:38 PM
Marco
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

"George" wrote in message
om

If it is CM9000_Default Vs Fritz 8 or Shredder 7.04 then CM loses.


My experience doesn't support this claim. In three games, Fritz
lost two and managed a forced draw in another, after not playing
as well as CM9000 (1.00).

Marco


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Old December 21st 03, 10:40 AM
George
 
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Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

Lars wrote in message ...
In article , says...
If it is CM9000_Default Vs Fritz 8 or Shredder 7.04 then CM loses.


No not correct!

http://www.utzingerkurt.com/cm9_skr_report.htm

Program Score % Av.Op. Elo + - Draws

1 The King 3.23 SKR : 554.5/900 61.6 2460 2542 19 19 35.9 %
2 Shredder 7.04 : 25.5/ 50 51.0 2544 2550 101 61 46.0 %
3 Deep Fritz 7 : 25.0/ 50 50.0 2544 2544 73 73 48.0 %
4 Chess Tiger 15.0 ob : 25.0/ 50 50.0 2544 2544 70 70 52.0 %
5 Fritz 8 : 24.5/ 50 49.0 2544 2537 75 101 30.0 %
6 Shredder 7 : 24.0/ 50 48.0 2544 2530 67 99 40.0 %
7 Chess Tiger 14.0 : 23.5/ 50 47.0 2544 2523 69 98 38.0 %
8 Chess Tiger 15.0 : 23.5/ 50 47.0 2544 2523 62 98 46.0 %
9 Gambit Tiger 2.0 ag : 20.0/ 50 40.0 2544 2473 76 89 36.0 %
10 Hiarcs 8 : 18.5/ 50 37.0 2544 2451 71 85 42.0 %
11 Ruffian 1.0.1 : 17.5/ 50 35.0 2544 2436 93 83 26.0 %
12 Gandalf 4.32f : 17.0/ 50 34.0 2544 2428 92 82 28.0 %
13 List 504 : 17.0/ 50 34.0 2544 2428 81 82 36.0 %
14 Nimzo 7.32 : 17.0/ 50 34.0 2544 2428 98 82 24.0 %
15 Aristarch 4.4 : 14.5/ 50 29.0 2544 2388 102 78 26.0 %
16 Crafty 18.15 : 14.0/ 50 28.0 2544 2379 80 77 40.0 %
17 SOS.3 for Arena : 14.0/ 50 28.0 2544 2379 94 77 32.0 %
18 Junior 7 : 13.0/ 50 26.0 2544 2362 111 75 24.0 %
19 Yace 0.99.56 : 12.0/ 50 24.0 2544 2343 99 73 32.0 %


So where in this list is CM9000_DEFAULT?
I was clearly talking about CM9000_DEFAULT Vs Fritz 8 or Shredder 7.04
and not for the SKR settings.
CM9000_SKR is almost the same strength with Fritz 8, although i think
it's
a little weaker. Not in a head to head contest, but to a big
tournament with
top 20 engines with 20 mathes between every engine. But in comparison
with Shredder 7.04, the CM9000_SKR 99% is not better.
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Old December 21st 03, 10:50 AM
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

Lars wrote:
says...
If it is CM9000_Default Vs Fritz 8 or Shredder 7.04 then CM loses.


No not correct!

http://www.utzingerkurt.com/cm9_skr_report.htm

Program Score % Av.Op. Elo + - Draws

1 The King 3.23 SKR : 554.5/900 61.6 2460 2542 19 19 35.9 %
2 Shredder 7.04 : 25.5/ 50 51.0 2544 2550 101 61 46.0 %
3 Deep Fritz 7 : 25.0/ 50 50.0 2544 2544 73 73 48.0 %
4 Chess Tiger 15.0 ob : 25.0/ 50 50.0 2544 2544 70 70 52.0 %
5 Fritz 8 : 24.5/ 50 49.0 2544 2537 75 101 30.0 %


That table is sorted by percentage score, which is rather unfair given
that Chessmaster was playing against opposition rated nearly 100 points
lower than all the other engines. If you sort by Elo, Chessmaster comes
fourth.

But even then, the error bars are so huge for everything but Chessmaster
that you can't tell anything from those data. All you get is that
Chessmaster's rating is very likely to be somewhere between 2523 and 2561,
Shredder's between 2489 and 2651 and Fritz's between 2436 and 2612. The
spread there is far too large to act as evidence that any of those three
engines is better than any of the others.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Addictive Car (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ high-performance luxury car but you
can never put it down!
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Old December 21st 03, 10:53 AM
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fritz 8 - Chessmaster 9000 1/2-1/2

Marco wrote:
"George" wrote in message
If it is CM9000_Default Vs Fritz 8 or Shredder 7.04 then CM loses.


My experience doesn't support this claim. In three games, Fritz
lost two and managed a forced draw in another, after not playing
as well as CM9000 (1.00).


That's not statistically significant.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Swiss Metal Cheese (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ lump of cheese that's made of steel
but it's made in Switzerland!
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