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Old January 16th 04, 06:51 PM
Mike Williams
 
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Default How Good is Chessmaster?

I recently paid good money for Chessmaster 9000 and I have just pitted =
it at its highest level in a game against a freeware program called =
FreeChess. I expected Chessmaster 9000 to thrash the freeware program, =
but it didn't. It managed a draw.

Is Chessmaster 9000 any good?

Mike


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Old January 16th 04, 08:20 PM
Blue Knight
 
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Default How Good is Chessmaster?

Hi Mike,

First of all, you can't base anything on one game. Also, it depends on
whether both machines were running on one machine or not, because then they
would be competing for CPU and memory resources.

As for paying good money for CM9000, you've got to remember that you're
paying more for the tutorials and lessons and suchlike rather than just the
engine. If you only wanted a lesson, then you could have downloaded any
number of free ones (with varying levels of strength, of course).

Also, just because an engine is freeware, doesn't mean it isn't any good!

Regards,

BlueKnight


"Mike Williams" wrote in message
...
I recently paid good money for Chessmaster 9000 and I have just pitted it at
its highest level in a game against a freeware program called FreeChess. I
expected Chessmaster 9000 to thrash the freeware program, but it didn't. It
managed a draw.

Is Chessmaster 9000 any good?

Mike



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Old January 16th 04, 08:31 PM
Mike Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default How Good is Chessmaster?

"Blue Knight" wrote in message =
...

Also, just because an engine is freeware, doesn't mean it
isn't any good!


Thanks. I do realise that I was buying lots of stuff other than the =
engine itself. It's just that I thought (naively, as it turns out!) that =
the engine in a fairly top of the range commercial offering would be =
better than a freeware one (just as the graphics engine in a top of the =
range drawing program is orders of magnitude better than the graphics =
engine in a freeware one). It appears that this doesn't hold true for =
chess programs. So is there a general concensus on which of the =
available chess engines (commercial or otherwise) is the best? If so, =
what is it and how does the engine in Chessmaster 9000 compare with it? =
And how do any of them compare to real "top notch" human chess players? =
Any ideas?

Mike


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Old January 16th 04, 08:39 PM
Blue Knight
 
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Default How Good is Chessmaster?

Hi Mike,

It all depends on who you are talking to and which day of the week it is

In general you'll find that Fritz, Junior (I think), Crafty (free, I
believe), and ChessMaster are all in the top 10 of chess engines. With the
commercial ones you are getting more than just an engine. However, another
factor is the interface - some like CM's interface, some prefer Fritz's
interface, and some prefer things like WinBoard.

At the end of the day, I think CM9000 is no worse or better than any other
engine out there, at least for the general masses. If you're rated 2300+
(purely a guestimate), then it might matter, but for those below 2000 (for
example), you'll find that many of the engines will challenge you
sufficiently.

Regards,

Blue Knight

"Mike Williams" wrote in message
...
"Blue Knight" wrote in message
...

Also, just because an engine is freeware, doesn't mean it
isn't any good!


Thanks. I do realise that I was buying lots of stuff other than the engine
itself. It's just that I thought (naively, as it turns out!) that the engine
in a fairly top of the range commercial offering would be better than a
freeware one (just as the graphics engine in a top of the range drawing
program is orders of magnitude better than the graphics engine in a freeware
one). It appears that this doesn't hold true for chess programs. So is there
a general concensus on which of the available chess engines (commercial or
otherwise) is the best? If so, what is it and how does the engine in
Chessmaster 9000 compare with it? And how do any of them compare to real
"top notch" human chess players? Any ideas?

Mike



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Old January 16th 04, 09:33 PM
Mike Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default How Good is Chessmaster?

"Blue Knight" wrote in message =
...

If you're rated 2300+ (purely a guestimate), then it might
matter . . . . .


Ditch one of those zeros ;-)

Mike





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Old January 16th 04, 09:55 PM
HD
 
Posts: n/a
Default How Good is Chessmaster?

If you really want to look at some ratings, two places come to mind. At
the first place (SSDF), the games have been played normal tournament
time controls, at the second (CSS) the engines have played out some
testpositions at blitz timecontrols (10'+10" - if I recall correct). And
remember that this only engine vs engine rating (and that rating is only
statistics).
They don't agree on complete list, nor the figures, but they do agree on
some ranks...
However, it CAN be fun checking it out!

http://w1.859.telia.com/%7Eu85924109/ssdf/list.htm

http://www.computerschach.de/rangliste/

HD


Mike Williams skrev:
"Blue Knight" wrote in message ...


Also, just because an engine is freeware, doesn't mean it
isn't any good!



Thanks. I do realise that I was buying lots of stuff other than the engine itself. It's just that I thought (naively, as it turns out!) that the engine in a fairly top of the range commercial offering would be better than a freeware one (just as the graphics engine in a top of the range drawing program is orders of magnitude better than the graphics engine in a freeware one). It appears that this doesn't hold true for chess programs. So is there a general concensus on which of the available chess engines (commercial or otherwise) is the best? If so, what is it and how does the engine in Chessmaster 9000 compare with it? And how do any of them compare to real "top notch" human chess players? Any ideas?

Mike



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Old January 16th 04, 10:46 PM
John Merlino
 
Posts: n/a
Default How Good is Chessmaster?

"Mike Williams" wrote in message ...
I recently paid good money for Chessmaster 9000 and I have just pitted
it at its highest level in a game against a freeware program called
FreeChess. I expected Chessmaster 9000 to thrash the freeware program,
but it didn't. It managed a draw.

Is Chessmaster 9000 any good?

Mike


Chessmaster is one of the top 5-6 engines in the world. But just about
any strong engine can beat any other engine in any given game. And
even only moderately strong (International Master or higher) engines
can EASILY manage to draw even the best engines once in a while.

Try playing 20 games under the same conditions and see what happens.

jm
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Old January 16th 04, 11:55 PM
DMB
 
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Default How Good is Chessmaster?

Eric Hallsworth rates the later Chessmaster programs as being about 2550 ELO
on even a relatively slow processor, I believe.

Darryl

"John Merlino" wrote in message
om...
"Mike Williams" wrote in message

...
I recently paid good money for Chessmaster 9000 and I have just pitted
it at its highest level in a game against a freeware program called
FreeChess. I expected Chessmaster 9000 to thrash the freeware program,
but it didn't. It managed a draw.

Is Chessmaster 9000 any good?

Mike


Chessmaster is one of the top 5-6 engines in the world. But just about
any strong engine can beat any other engine in any given game. And
even only moderately strong (International Master or higher) engines
can EASILY manage to draw even the best engines once in a while.

Try playing 20 games under the same conditions and see what happens.

jm



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Old January 17th 04, 02:21 AM
Tom
 
Posts: n/a
Default How Good is Chessmaster?

"Mike Williams" wrote in message ...
I recently paid good money for Chessmaster 9000 and I have just pitted
it at its highest level in a game against a freeware program called
FreeChess. I expected Chessmaster 9000 to thrash the freeware program,
but it didn't. It managed a draw.

Is Chessmaster 9000 any good?

Mike

CM is a very strong engine. On par with the best out there.

A single game isn't really a great indicator of a programs playing
strength. Also CM9K's default opening book isn't that strong; it may
have chosen a drawing line by accident. Trying using a tournament
opening book and playing several games.

There are a number of other factors; were both engines running at the
same time on the same machine? What were the time limits?

--tom
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Old January 17th 04, 07:34 AM
John Merlino
 
Posts: n/a
Default How Good is Chessmaster?

"Mike Williams" wrote in message ...
"Blue Knight" wrote in message
...

Also, just because an engine is freeware, doesn't mean it
isn't any good!


Thanks. I do realise that I was buying lots of stuff other than the
engine itself. It's just that I thought (naively, as it turns out!) that
the engine in a fairly top of the range commercial offering would be
better than a freeware one (just as the graphics engine in a top of the
range drawing program is orders of magnitude better than the graphics
engine in a freeware one). It appears that this doesn't hold true for
chess programs. So is there a general concensus on which of the
available chess engines (commercial or otherwise) is the best? If so,
what is it and how does the engine in Chessmaster 9000 compare with it?
And how do any of them compare to real "top notch" human chess players?


I would say that any of these commercial engines (listed in no
particular order) are without a doubt considered "top tier", and can
beat each other in a match on any given day:

Chessmaster 9000
Junior
Fritz
Shredder
HIARCS

Chess Tiger was considered top tier at one time, but doesn't seem to
be QUITE in the same league any more, for various reasons....

Finally, Ruffian is a new commercial engine that may be quite strong,
but not enough testing has been done on v2.0 to know for sure.

jm
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