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Old February 12th 07, 07:30 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid

Hi,

I am trying to continue the developement of Scid (see
http://prolinux.free.fr/scid/) and I added a book feature (useful for
training and game annotation of course).

I generated my own books with Polyglot from PGN files :
- one with games with both players over 2400 ELO
- one with games with both players over 2600 ELO
The databases came from various places on Internet (2 to 3 millions
games, filtered by ELO to a few hundreds thousand games).

That's a start but maybe not the best for a *reference* book. I am far
from being an expert here. Maybe what I did is sufficient, may be not.

Do you know any pointer to such a book, with no copyright ?
Maybe someone has an hand made complete book out there ?

Pascal Georges
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Old February 12th 07, 08:50 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid

pascal wrote:

Maybe what I did is sufficient, may be not.


It is likely both, but much more insufficient than sufficient.

First, philosophically, it is insufficient. Chess is not solved up
until the tablebases. Therefore, the opening books, by definition, are
unsolved, and because they are unsolved, they are on surface, insufficient.

Secondly, openings tend to be more unsound that sound, yet you have
entirely missed the unsound openings. Leaving unsound in the same sea
as uncharted. There are more likely jewels to be found in the uncharted
than in the the charted yet unsound.

But, that said, it probably provides enough information for charting the
sound and usual. Probably a wide enough swath for useful work.

So both.
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Old February 13th 07, 12:00 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid

Johnny T wrote:
pascal wrote:
Maybe what I did is sufficient, may be not.


It is likely both, but much more insufficient than sufficient.

First, philosophically, it is insufficient. Chess is not solved up
until the tablebases. Therefore, the opening books, by definition,
are unsolved, and because they are unsolved, they are on surface,
insufficient.


Nonsense. The goal of an opening book is not to give perfect moves
but to document best current practice. You may as well argue that
they're `insufficient' because they can't fly to the moon.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Gigantic Crystal Painting (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a Renaissance masterpiece but
it's completely transparent and huge!
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Old February 13th 07, 04:26 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid

On 12 Feb, 20:30, pascal wrote:
Hi,

I am trying to continue the developement of Scid (seehttp://prolinux.free.fr/scid/) and I added a book feature (useful for
training and game annotation of course).

I generated my own books with Polyglot from PGN files :
- one with games with both players over 2400 ELO
- one with games with both players over 2600 ELO
The databases came from various places on Internet (2 to 3 millions
games, filtered by ELO to a few hundreds thousand games).

That's a start but maybe not the best for a *reference* book. I am far
from being an expert here. Maybe what I did is sufficient, may be not.

Do you know any pointer to such a book, with no copyright ?
Maybe someone has an hand made complete book out there ?

Pascal Georges


great job Pascal. can you explain how i can say to crafty to use the
open book and the tablebases under scid. I can use them in crafty, but
not under scid. many thanks. bye

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Old February 13th 07, 05:29 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid

Hi,

For tablebases :
1. you must configure path to them : Options - tablebase directory
2. you get info in Endgames - Endgame tablebase window.
This is a great feature of Scid.

For openings :
I added an opening window that I think is more flexible than engine's
openings. More over UCI protocol states that opening phase should be
handled by the user interface. BUT you caught me : under windows I did
not check if Crafty "sees" its opening book and given the
pre-configuration of engines I set up for windows, it does not work. You
can fix it by editing Crafty configuration and setting the directory
parameter to
C:/Program Files/Scid-pg/engines/crafty-20.14/
WITHOUT the surrounding " I put for safety but that makes Crafty not see
its book files.

Pascal Georges

ppcur a écrit :
On 12 Feb, 20:30, pascal wrote:
Hi,

I am trying to continue the developement of Scid (seehttp://prolinux.free.fr/scid/) and I added a book feature (useful for
training and game annotation of course).

I generated my own books with Polyglot from PGN files :
- one with games with both players over 2400 ELO
- one with games with both players over 2600 ELO
The databases came from various places on Internet (2 to 3 millions
games, filtered by ELO to a few hundreds thousand games).

That's a start but maybe not the best for a *reference* book. I am far
from being an expert here. Maybe what I did is sufficient, may be not.

Do you know any pointer to such a book, with no copyright ?
Maybe someone has an hand made complete book out there ?

Pascal Georges


great job Pascal. can you explain how i can say to crafty to use the
open book and the tablebases under scid. I can use them in crafty, but
not under scid. many thanks. bye



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Old February 13th 07, 09:45 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid

David Richerby wrote:

Nonsense.


I know, I know. It is hard to learn anything new, or you're the
self-appointed king of the newsgroup. Anything that doesn't fit your
personal world view is nonsense.

First, I *said*, that depending on you measure it, it may be sufficient,
or insufficient. Funny, if I used your measurement, I said that it was
sufficient. Funny, we agreed. It is nonsense, yet we agreed.

Or, you think all the other cases I mentioned, where some find value in
the opening book, believing that not all new opening theory is found,
discovered and practiced at the grandmaster or supergrandmaster lever.
That think that there is a lot of interesting stuff, especially in
non-mainstream lines at other levels.

That there are a number of opening trees that I don't want to
investigate everything that is fruitless as I am studying or attempting
to understand a game or something. Wouldn't be cool if my opening book
already had those lines marked of as fruitless.

Gee wouldn't my opening book be insufficient if I wanted to do those
things.

Oh those things are like going to the moon. You know, they have nothing
to do with chess, or using databases for research, or using opening
books in my research. Nope, nothing to do with that.

Let the wool drop from your eyes. Be open to learning something. Stop
superreacting when someone posts. But I talk to the wall.
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Old February 13th 07, 10:18 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid


"pascal" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Hi,

I am trying to continue the developement of Scid (see
http://prolinux.free.fr/scid/) and I added a book feature (useful for
training and game annotation of course).

I generated my own books with Polyglot from PGN files :
- one with games with both players over 2400 ELO
- one with games with both players over 2600 ELO
The databases came from various places on Internet (2 to 3 millions games,
filtered by ELO to a few hundreds thousand games).


Hi Pascal,
I agree thats a good intention. Best would be to offer the user a way to
create his own books within the UI like CB and Arena does.
So engines play only bookmoves from "B33" or "D44" and user
can train their favorite openings playing against one of the engines.

But most improvement would be to integrate Engines output,
list window and game notation into the main window. One window for all
database operations, another for all game related operations.
Game editions by right clicking on the game notation.

That would make handling much more easy and confusion about
to much different windows would be past.

At the end there would be a nearly bugfree prog with even more
functions than most others. Great !!

Emil


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Old February 13th 07, 11:13 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid

Superreacting? I have seen better examples of superreacting recently.

Maybe David is right chess and computer wise.
You seem to be a nice guy but couldn't it be possible that you are
talking to the wall you just built yourself ?

Let's hope 1. e2-e4?? won't be solved for a few decades so we can
still have some fun at the board.
In the mean time I'll be reading 40 year old obsolete opening books
trying to prevent another defeat against my 12 yo daughter.

Hans

On 2007-02-13 22:45:13 +0100, Johnny T said:

David Richerby wrote:

Nonsense.


I know, I know. It is hard to learn anything new, or you're the
self-appointed king of the newsgroup. Anything that doesn't fit your
personal world view is nonsense.

First, I *said*, that depending on you measure it, it may be
sufficient, or insufficient. Funny, if I used your measurement, I said
that it was sufficient. Funny, we agreed. It is nonsense, yet we
agreed.

Or, you think all the other cases I mentioned, where some find value in
the opening book, believing that not all new opening theory is found,
discovered and practiced at the grandmaster or supergrandmaster lever.
That think that there is a lot of interesting stuff, especially in
non-mainstream lines at other levels.

That there are a number of opening trees that I don't want to
investigate everything that is fruitless as I am studying or attempting
to understand a game or something. Wouldn't be cool if my opening book
already had those lines marked of as fruitless.

Gee wouldn't my opening book be insufficient if I wanted to do those things.

Oh those things are like going to the moon. You know, they have
nothing to do with chess, or using databases for research, or using
opening books in my research. Nope, nothing to do with that.

Let the wool drop from your eyes. Be open to learning something. Stop
superreacting when someone posts. But I talk to the wall.



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Old February 14th 07, 01:42 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid

Hans wrote:
Superreacting? I have seen better examples of superreacting recently.


People should be careful using terms like "nonsense." Because they
leave little room for discussion, dissent, and the discovery of truth.

Maybe David is right chess and computer wise.
You seem to be a nice guy but couldn't it be possible that you are
talking to the wall you just built yourself ?


And who knows what your point is here, unless you are just piling on to
the nonsense debate, by saying, what? I don't know.

Let's hope 1. e2-e4?? won't be solved for a few decades so we can still
have some fun at the board.


I am sure that it will be likely 1. e4!? rather than a blunder.

In the mean time I'll be reading 40 year old obsolete opening books
trying to prevent another defeat against my 12 yo daughter.


Which either raises the question of sufficiency or answers it. But who
knows. You do know that the original question was about "sufficiency"
correct? And that the entirety of my answer tried to answer the "is it
sufficient" question. Yet somehow it was construed that I was so off
base, so off topic, that my answer had as much to do with opening books
in chess as going to the moon, or complete nonsense.

And now, having defended this, I am "super-reacting". Wow.
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Old February 14th 07, 12:21 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Looking for an opening reference book for Scid

Emil Koch a écrit :
"pascal" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Hi,

I am trying to continue the developement of Scid (see
http://prolinux.free.fr/scid/) and I added a book feature (useful for
training and game annotation of course).

I generated my own books with Polyglot from PGN files :
- one with games with both players over 2400 ELO
- one with games with both players over 2600 ELO
The databases came from various places on Internet (2 to 3 millions games,
filtered by ELO to a few hundreds thousand games).


Hi Pascal,
I agree thats a good intention. Best would be to offer the user a way to
create his own books within the UI like CB and Arena does.


That was my intention when I noticed the code I used (taken from the
great program Polyglot from Fabien Letouzey) was not perfect and fail
importing some PGN games. This feature should have already been achieved
if I hadn't encountered, well ... crashes.

So engines play only bookmoves from "B33" or "D44" and user
can train their favorite openings playing against one of the engines.


This is (partially ?) done in the "tactical game" feature : you play
against a weakened engine (Phalanx) that simulates a player between 1200
and 2200 and you can choose an opening line to follow. See for details :
http://prolinux.free.fr/scid/scid_ne...html#playcoach
For now the list of opening lines is limited but I personaly use it a
lot to train with the French Defense Winawer.

But most improvement would be to integrate Engines output,
list window and game notation into the main window. One window for all
database operations, another for all game related operations.
Game editions by right clicking on the game notation.

That would make handling much more easy and confusion about
to much different windows would be past.


I already thought about that : a better window integration. You are 100%
right it should be better and more user friendly, but some users (in
fact one) told me they prefer the current windowing system ...

At the end there would be a nearly bugfree prog with even more
functions than most others. Great !!


Thanks !

Pascal Georges
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