Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old February 1st 04, 09:01 PM
J Kazinski
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ethical cheating in online chess

When asked if using computers in online chess is "inherently
unethical" many consider it so. Users of computers are labeled
"cheaters." Many competitors mention that they would personally gain
no satisfaction from winning if they used computer assistance. Many
also equated using computers to letting the computer totally generate
the moves without any involvement from the player. Using computers has
been labeled by many as unethical and unsatisfying without any further
thought about more subtle and creative uses of using analyzing
computers as tools.

When assistance of computers to analyze positions is forbidden by the
rules of play some difficulties arise. First of all is done properly
computer aided play in online chess cannot be detected. Additionally
there are all sorts of minor infractions that can occur with computer
use. How about using a computer to study openings, say by using it as
a practice opponent or allowing it to suggest lines of play for you to
consider, when would you have to stop playing these lines ? If you
consider this example trivial allow me to point out that such
considerations have led to lengthy and heated debate already.

Here are my personal opinions on this subject. I see nothing
"inherently" unethical about using computers. They are just one
additional tool we can use to determine the move we wish to make. I
wouldn't obtain personal satisfaction from plugging my positions into
a computer and just accepting the generated moves but I'll allow that
it is possible that some competitors would find this a fun way to play
chess. There will always be competitors who want to play without
computer assistance. I have no problem with that as long as they
respect my perception too !

Chess is a magnificent activity. The art/sport/science of chess is
great enough to encompass all competitors, whether they pursue
correspondence, OTB, problem solving/composing, chess set collecting,
chess-on-stamps collecting, chess forms designing, chess journalism,
tournament directing, organizing, or the many other forms of chess
activities. It would be grossly unfair for one set of chess
enthusiasts to prohibit others from pursuing their preferred forms of
the game. I would specifically propose chess competitions be made
available for using computers to analyze or generate moves. I see no
reason to satisfy those who are opposed to these ideas : I refuse to
accept the tyranny of those who would force others to play only by
their preferred rules.

http://www.compcheaters.netfirms.com/
  #2   Report Post  
Old February 2nd 04, 07:05 AM
JVarsoke
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ethical cheating in online chess

(J Kazinski) wrote in message . com...

[snip garbage]

Troll. Just another name for my killfile.
  #3   Report Post  
Old February 3rd 04, 04:08 PM
Brian
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ethical cheating in online chess

Actually you can play with computer assistance as a cyborg in Playchess, I'm
sure others have similar setups. Many people use computers in
correspondence games to assist with analysis (where both players are aware,
that is).

I don't see anything wrong with using computers for assistance either,
provided both parties are aware and have the option.

"J Kazinski" wrote in message
om...
When asked if using computers in online chess is "inherently
unethical" many consider it so. Users of computers are labeled
"cheaters." Many competitors mention that they would personally gain
no satisfaction from winning if they used computer assistance. Many
also equated using computers to letting the computer totally generate
the moves without any involvement from the player. Using computers has
been labeled by many as unethical and unsatisfying without any further
thought about more subtle and creative uses of using analyzing
computers as tools.

When assistance of computers to analyze positions is forbidden by the
rules of play some difficulties arise. First of all is done properly
computer aided play in online chess cannot be detected. Additionally
there are all sorts of minor infractions that can occur with computer
use. How about using a computer to study openings, say by using it as
a practice opponent or allowing it to suggest lines of play for you to
consider, when would you have to stop playing these lines ? If you
consider this example trivial allow me to point out that such
considerations have led to lengthy and heated debate already.

Here are my personal opinions on this subject. I see nothing
"inherently" unethical about using computers. They are just one
additional tool we can use to determine the move we wish to make. I
wouldn't obtain personal satisfaction from plugging my positions into
a computer and just accepting the generated moves but I'll allow that
it is possible that some competitors would find this a fun way to play
chess. There will always be competitors who want to play without
computer assistance. I have no problem with that as long as they
respect my perception too !

Chess is a magnificent activity. The art/sport/science of chess is
great enough to encompass all competitors, whether they pursue
correspondence, OTB, problem solving/composing, chess set collecting,
chess-on-stamps collecting, chess forms designing, chess journalism,
tournament directing, organizing, or the many other forms of chess
activities. It would be grossly unfair for one set of chess
enthusiasts to prohibit others from pursuing their preferred forms of
the game. I would specifically propose chess competitions be made
available for using computers to analyze or generate moves. I see no
reason to satisfy those who are opposed to these ideas : I refuse to
accept the tyranny of those who would force others to play only by
their preferred rules.

http://www.compcheaters.netfirms.com/



  #4   Report Post  
Old February 3rd 04, 09:15 PM
henri Arsenault
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ethical cheating in online chess

In article ,
"Thomas T. Veldhouse" wrote:

The problem I have with cheating is this. I don't care whether a
cheater is satisfied by their cheating or not. What I do care about is
having my rating bashed by somebody that decided to cheat ... thus, I
didn't lose rating to a player, but rather to a computer. If I wanted
to play a computer, I would choose the (c) players or I would just play
Fritz at home and forget the Internet altogether. Somebody who uses a
computer to play their games when posing as a human player is a cheat, a
coward and a subhuman player.

I don't disagree, but look at it this way. If your rating goes down
because of a few games against computers posing as humans, you will get
more rating points in your other games against humans (the larger the
rating difference, the more points you get for winning), and unless the
relative number of computers is high, it should about balance out in the
end and your rating should stay about the same in the long term.

I must admit that I haven't actually calculated this so I could be
wrong, but it should not be too hard to simulate for one who understands
how the rating system works.

Personally I find it a lot less stressful to not put too much emphasis
on ratings and just go for the fun.

Henri
  #5   Report Post  
Old February 4th 04, 05:57 AM
Eopithecus
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ethical cheating in online chess

I changed games after being checkmated with an announced mate in 8
with a queen sacrifice by an established 873 rated player. My USCF is
around 1950. In Go computer programs still play at the beginner level
so cheating isn't much of a problem. There are lots of places to play
this game and stronger players almost always take time to help
beginners get started. For me Go was the answer to the cheats in
chess.


  #6   Report Post  
Old February 6th 04, 02:37 AM
Bob Fairbank
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ethical cheating in online chess

Sounds like someone is trying to justify doing something that they
intrinsically know is wrong to do in order to justify their pretense that
it's OK to do it.

No one can stop you from cheating. But there are those, like myself, who
refuse to facilitate it by being a part of it. Because of computer chess I
quit postal chess years ago.

BTW. Is not the "Subject" -- "Ethical cheating" an oxymoron of the first
magnitude?




J Kazinski wrote:

When asked if using computers in online chess is "inherently
unethical" many consider it so. Users of computers are labeled
"cheaters." Many competitors mention that they would personally gain
no satisfaction from winning if they used computer assistance. Many
also equated using computers to letting the computer totally generate
the moves without any involvement from the player. Using computers has
been labeled by many as unethical and unsatisfying without any further
thought about more subtle and creative uses of using analyzing
computers as tools.

When assistance of computers to analyze positions is forbidden by the
rules of play some difficulties arise. First of all is done properly
computer aided play in online chess cannot be detected. Additionally
there are all sorts of minor infractions that can occur with computer
use. How about using a computer to study openings, say by using it as
a practice opponent or allowing it to suggest lines of play for you to
consider, when would you have to stop playing these lines ? If you
consider this example trivial allow me to point out that such
considerations have led to lengthy and heated debate already.

Here are my personal opinions on this subject. I see nothing
"inherently" unethical about using computers. They are just one
additional tool we can use to determine the move we wish to make. I
wouldn't obtain personal satisfaction from plugging my positions into
a computer and just accepting the generated moves but I'll allow that
it is possible that some competitors would find this a fun way to play
chess. There will always be competitors who want to play without
computer assistance. I have no problem with that as long as they
respect my perception too !

Chess is a magnificent activity. The art/sport/science of chess is
great enough to encompass all competitors, whether they pursue
correspondence, OTB, problem solving/composing, chess set collecting,
chess-on-stamps collecting, chess forms designing, chess journalism,
tournament directing, organizing, or the many other forms of chess
activities. It would be grossly unfair for one set of chess
enthusiasts to prohibit others from pursuing their preferred forms of
the game. I would specifically propose chess competitions be made
available for using computers to analyze or generate moves. I see no
reason to satisfy those who are opposed to these ideas : I refuse to
accept the tyranny of those who would force others to play only by
their preferred rules.

http://www.compcheaters.netfirms.com/


  #7   Report Post  
Old February 6th 04, 08:41 PM
joe mccarron
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ethical cheating in online chess

Look at it this way. Lets say if noone cheated you would be at about
the 50 percentile. But lets say 10% cheat. Also for the sake of
arguemtns lets assume that half of the cheaters are above the fiftieth
percentile(i.e., they are better than you at chess) and the other half
are below the fiftieth percentile. That means you would proabbaly
have a rating placing you at about the 45th percentile instead of the
50th.

If 30% of those playign cheat your rating would put you at the 35th
percentile instead of fiftieth.

Anyway I thought the site was funny. It seems very odd to have a
"cheaters rulebook" (see the "codex") Honor among thieves or some
other.


henri Arsenault wrote in message ...
In article ,
"Thomas T. Veldhouse" wrote:

The problem I have with cheating is this. I don't care whether a
cheater is satisfied by their cheating or not. What I do care about is
having my rating bashed by somebody that decided to cheat ... thus, I
didn't lose rating to a player, but rather to a computer. If I wanted
to play a computer, I would choose the (c) players or I would just play
Fritz at home and forget the Internet altogether. Somebody who uses a
computer to play their games when posing as a human player is a cheat, a
coward and a subhuman player.

I don't disagree, but look at it this way. If your rating goes down
because of a few games against computers posing as humans, you will get
more rating points in your other games against humans (the larger the
rating difference, the more points you get for winning), and unless the
relative number of computers is high, it should about balance out in the
end and your rating should stay about the same in the long term.

I must admit that I haven't actually calculated this so I could be
wrong, but it should not be too hard to simulate for one who understands
how the rating system works.

Personally I find it a lot less stressful to not put too much emphasis
on ratings and just go for the fun.

Henri

  #8   Report Post  
Old February 7th 04, 04:17 PM
Dan Pressnell
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ethical cheating in online chess

"henri Arsenault" wrote in message
...

I don't disagree, but look at it this way. If your rating goes down
because of a few games against computers posing as humans, you will get
more rating points in your other games against humans (the larger the
rating difference, the more points you get for winning), and unless the
relative number of computers is high, it should about balance out in the
end and your rating should stay about the same in the long term.


Cheating cannot be justified by fancy math.



Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:55 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Chess"

 

Copyright © 2017