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Old May 28th 07, 03:01 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

This one seems to be saying it has 750,000+ games.

http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Fritz-Grand-Master-Deluxe/dp/B000BTLYAU/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9233362-9794222?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1180317578&sr=8-1

True?

Not all annotated, I wager....

Or with the other Special Features I want.

DSH


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Old May 28th 07, 01:46 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

Can we continue with a thread that gives the links to such discussed
and annotated games, I am only a 1250 player but like the games that
discuss every move, thank you

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Old May 29th 07, 09:39 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

cmcanulty wrote:
Can we continue with a thread that gives the links to such discussed
and annotated games, I am only a 1250 player but like the games that
discuss every move, thank you


I'd recommend Chernev's books ``Logical Chess: Move by Move'' and then
``The Most Instructive Games of Chess Ever Played'' (which is a little
more advanced and doesn't comment on every single move). They're
available very cheaply -- the latter, at least, from Dover.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Old-Fashioned Atlas (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a map of the world but it's perfect
for your grandparents!
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Old May 29th 07, 12:29 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?


On May 28, 1:46 pm, cmcanulty wrote:
Can we continue with a thread that gives the links to such discussed
and annotated games, I am only a 1250 player but like the games that
discuss every move, thank you


On May 28, 3:01 am, "D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
This one seems to be saying it has 750,000+ games.

http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Fritz-Grand-Master-Deluxe/dp/B000BTLYAU/re...

True?

Not all annotated, I wager....


Although Fritz can annotate a GM level game pretty well at between
5-20s/move - adequate for players in the range of 1400-2000 ELO so
unless you are into deeply anticomputer positional play or already the
same strength as the engines it isn't really a major issue. The only
problems occur in the relatively rare positions where engines cannot
see the wood for the trees whereas a good human annotator usually can
(perhaps aided by a computer).

The full megapack version of ChessBase comes with something like 60000
annotated games - although I suspect that the annotation assumes a
relatively high standard of tournament play as a base level. I only
have the basic version with no annotation and annotate games of
interest using either Shredder or Fritz according to taste.

http://www.ukgamesshop.com/Merchant2...y_Code=chsocba

Incidentally there are some collections of engine annotated games
available free online. For example:
http://wwwu.uni-klu.ac.at/gossimit/c/chess.htm

The settings he uses look a bit shallow to me, but YMMV

Regards,
Martin Brown

PS Google keeps crashing out on me as I try to post

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Old May 29th 07, 01:41 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

Martin Brown wrote:
Although Fritz can annotate a GM level game pretty well at between
5-20s/move


No, Fritz can point out tactical errors in a GM game pretty well. The
average player needs much more help than that. ``Because it wasn't a
tactical mistake'' isn't a good explanation of why the GM played the
move he did.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Impossible Cheese Atom Bomb (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a weapon of mass destruction
that's made of cheese but it can't
exist!


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Old May 29th 07, 05:00 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

Thanks!

It looks as if I need this one:

ChessBase 9 Mega Pack -- with 3,500,000+ games from 1530 to 2006 -- 60,000
with some commentary.

Do I need this one as well, to get the 750,000+ games?

Deep Fritz: Grand Master Deluxe

DSH

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
oups.com...

On May 28, 1:46 pm, cmcanulty wrote:


Can we continue with a thread that gives the links to such discussed
and annotated games, I am only a 1250 player but like the games that
discuss every move, thank you


On May 28, 3:01 am, "D. Spencer Hines" wrote:


This one seems to be saying it has 750,000+ games.

http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Fritz-Grand-Master-Deluxe/dp/B000BTLYAU/re...

True?

Not all annotated, I wager....


Although Fritz can annotate a GM level game pretty well at between
5-20s/move - adequate for players in the range of 1400-2000 ELO so
unless you are into deeply anticomputer positional play or already the
same strength as the engines it isn't really a major issue. The only
problems occur in the relatively rare positions where engines cannot
see the wood for the trees whereas a good human annotator usually can
(perhaps aided by a computer).

The full megapack version of ChessBase comes with something like 60000
annotated games - although I suspect that the annotation assumes a
relatively high standard of tournament play as a base level. I only
have the basic version with no annotation and annotate games of
interest using either Shredder or Fritz according to taste.

http://www.ukgamesshop.com/Merchant2...y_Code=chsocba

Incidentally there are some collections of engine annotated games
available free online. For example:
http://wwwu.uni-klu.ac.at/gossimit/c/chess.htm

The settings he uses look a bit shallow to me, but YMMV

Regards,
Martin Brown

PS Google keeps crashing out on me as I try to post



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Old May 29th 07, 05:07 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

Although Fritz can annotate a GM level game pretty well at between
5-20s/move - adequate for players in the range of 1400-2000 ELO so
unless you are into deeply anticomputer positional play or already the
same strength as the engines it isn't really a major issue. The only
problems occur in the relatively rare positions where engines cannot
see the wood for the trees whereas a good human annotator usually can
(perhaps aided by a computer). -- Martin Brown


I don't understand some of the jargon here.

"5-20's/move"?

"1400-2000 ELO"? How does one determine the rating?

relatively rare positions where engines cannot
see the wood for the trees


Too many pieces on the board for the engine to unravel the variations and
develop tactics?

Can you please clarify?

DSH


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Old May 29th 07, 10:44 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

On May 29, 5:07 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
Although Fritz can annotate a GM level game pretty well at between
5-20s/move - adequate for players in the range of 1400-2000 ELO so
unless you are into deeply anticomputer positional play or already the
same strength as the engines it isn't really a major issue. The only
problems occur in the relatively rare positions where engines cannot
see the wood for the trees whereas a good human annotator usually can
(perhaps aided by a computer). -- Martin Brown


I don't understand some of the jargon here.

"5-20's/move"?


The engine annotating uses upto 5s or 20s per plausible move. This
will find most (but not all) tactical mistakes in complex GM level
games. What it cannot do is recognise deeper strategic themes that
trade material for positional advantage, I suggest you get the bargain
Fritz9 first and play with that. Unless you have money to burn the top
end ChessBase product is severe overkill and might well be
incomprehensible if you are not already a strong player.

"1400-2000 ELO"? How does one determine the rating?


Cue a major fight over what engine ratings mean. But for the purposes
of this discussion at 5s a move it will annotate tactics to a depth
that a 1400 ELO player should be able to understand and learn from
whilst at 20s or so it wll be roughly at the level of a 2000 ELO
player. What it lacks is strategic vision - you still need humans for
that.

If you don't recognise ELO ratings you defnitely do not want the high
end annotated database.

relatively rare positions where engines cannot
see the wood for the trees


Too many pieces on the board for the engine to unravel the variations and
develop tactics?


Usually the engines are never confused by obscure tactical variations
even in extremely complex positions but humans are. This is one
machine tactic that Hydra has exploited with its anti-anti-computer
chess.

Where chess engines usually come unstuck is in the endgame transition
where small positional changes that are insignificant in the short
term can make all the difference. And humans have a sort of pattern
matching cheat that says this move looks right in this context whereas
the computer can sometimes be misled into taking short term material
gain for a long term disastrous loss well beyond its computational
event horizon.

Can you please clarify?


An accessible example that is obvious to human players but not so to
most chess engines is online at Adrian Berry's website. It is an open
challenge to spot how many gross errors he introduced into his
inaccrately plagarised chess material. The chess position is OK though
- Shredder10 today solves it in under 2s. Fritz8 in about 15 mins.

http://www.adrianberry.net/chesser.htm

Regards,
Martin Brown

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Old May 30th 07, 01:13 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
oups.com...

On May 29, 5:07 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" wrote:


Although Fritz can annotate a GM level game pretty well at between
5-20s/move - adequate for players in the range of 1400-2000 ELO so
unless you are into deeply anticomputer positional play or already the
same strength as the engines it isn't really a major issue. The only
problems occur in the relatively rare positions where engines cannot
see the wood for the trees whereas a good human annotator usually can
(perhaps aided by a computer). -- Martin Brown


I don't understand some of the jargon here.

"5-20's/move"?


Got it! Vide infra.

The engine annotating uses upto 5s or 20s per plausible move. This
will find most (but not all) tactical mistakes in complex GM level
games. What it cannot do is recognise deeper strategic themes that
trade material for positional advantage, I suggest you get the bargain
Fritz9 first and play with that. Unless you have money to burn the top
end ChessBase product is severe overkill and might well be
incomprehensible if you are not already a strong player.


Funding is not a problem. What is it for ChessBase 9 Mega Pack, just $300,
or so?

Do I also need:

Deep Fritz: Grand Master Deluxe?

Or would that be redundant?

Do I lose a LOT of capability if I'm not using dual processors?

"1400-2000 ELO"? How does one determine the rating?


Cue a major fight over what engine ratings mean. But for the purposes
of this discussion at 5s a move it will annotate tactics to a depth
that a 1400 ELO player should be able to understand and learn from
whilst at 20s or so it wll be roughly at the level of a 2000 ELO
player. What it lacks is strategic vision - you still need humans for
that.


O.K. An EPONYM, not an abbreviation:

Árpád Élo (1903–1992), the Hungarian-born, but later American, physicist.

The Elo ratings.

If you don't recognise ELO ratings you defnitely do not want the high
end annotated database.

relatively rare positions where engines cannot
see the wood for the trees


Too many pieces on the board for the engine to unravel the variations and
develop tactics?


Usually the engines are never confused by obscure tactical variations
even in extremely complex positions but humans are. This is one
machine tactic that Hydra has exploited with its anti-anti-computer
chess.

Where chess engines usually come unstuck is in the endgame transition
where small positional changes that are insignificant in the short
term can make all the difference. And humans have a sort of pattern
matching cheat that says this move looks right in this context whereas
the computer can sometimes be misled into taking short term material
gain for a long term disastrous loss well beyond its computational
event horizon.

Can you please clarify?


An accessible example that is obvious to human players but not so to
most chess engines is online at Adrian Berry's website. It is an open
challenge to spot how many gross errors he introduced into his
inaccrately plagarised chess material. The chess position is OK though
- Shredder10 today solves it in under 2s. Fritz8 in about 15 mins.

http://www.adrianberry.net/chesser.htm

Regards,
Martin Brown


Cheers,

DSH


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Old May 31st 07, 12:51 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Are There Better Chess Software Packages Than Chessmaster 10000?

U¿ytkownik "D. Spencer Hines" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...

[...]
Funding is not a problem. What is it for ChessBase 9 Mega Pack, just
$300,
or so?


ChessBase 9 Mega Package costs 411.31 USD, without VAT.

Do I also need:

Deep Fritz: Grand Master Deluxe?


ChessBase 9 comes only with a very old engine, Fritz 5.32; so if you
want to do computer analysis with it, you'll need one of the top
engines, such as Rybka, Fritz 10, Shredder 10, etc. Some top engines are
free, e.g. Rybka demo, Toga and Spike.

Or would that be redundant?


You don't need "Deep Fritz Grand Master Deluxe"; if I am not mistaken,
it is an old version of Fritz, released before Deep Fritz 10, and
weaker.

Do I lose a LOT of capability if I'm not using dual processors?


You will lose a lot of capability if you use _only_ dual processors. To
improve in chess, you should use whatever is inside your skull.

[...]

Helene


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