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Old June 6th 07, 01:29 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?

Can anybody explain the history behind this open letter to the FIDE President
from the author of Rybka? I have read it, but I get the sneaking suspicion
that there is more to it than what I read there.

http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

Lie, n.:
A very poor substitute for the truth, but the only one
discovered to date.


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Old June 6th 07, 10:03 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
Can anybody explain the history behind this open letter to the FIDE President
from the author of Rybka? I have read it, but I get the sneaking suspicion
that there is more to it than what I read there.

http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm



It is in response to the Fritz/Junior match that is sanctioned by Fide
currently going on at the candidates, and the fact that Fritz and Junior
are ducking Rybka in other computer chess championships where they
choose to play or not.

The result of this marketing is making it look like the Chessbase
products are the superior product, yet there is very good reason to
believe that it is not true.

But I don't like the bet nature. I think Vas should just put up the money.
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Old June 6th 07, 11:46 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?




Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

Can anybody explain the history behind this open letter to
the FIDE President from the author of Rybka? I have read
it, but I get the sneaking suspicion that there is more to
it than what I read there.

http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm


Let's examine these claims.

FIDE says:
"Players: Deep Junior vs. Deep Fritz
The reigning World Computer Champion vs.
The winner against the world human champion."

Source:
http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1328
http://www.fide.com/news/download/ComputerMatch07.pdf

Rybkachess says:

"[Rybka] has competed in all eight major international
tournaments held since her first release and taken
clear (unshared) first place in seven of them."

and

"It's no wonder that Rybka is generally considered the
undisputed strongest chess program in the world."

Source:
http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm

So, is it really fair to call Deep Junior the reigning
World Computer Champion? or to call Rybka the "undisputed
strongest chess program in the world?"

Wikipedia says this:

Rybka is a computer chess engine by International Master
Vasik Rajlich. As of February 2007, Rybka is top-rated
in the CCRL, CEGT, SSDF, SCCT, and CSS rating lists and
has won many official Computer Chess Tournaments
although it has yet to win the World Computer-Chess
Championship.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rybka

Let's look at the records of the various tournaments
listed by Rybka:

9th CCT 2007 - 7 rounds
Rybka 6.0
Junior 4.5
Shredder Not There

7th CSVN 2007 - 9 rounds
Rybka 9
Junior Not There
Shredder Not There

14th WCCC 2006 - 9 rounds
Junior 9.0
Shredder 8.5
Rybka 8.5

6th CSVN 2006 - 9 rounds
Rybka 8.5
Deep Shredder 6.5
Junior Not There

8th CCT 2006 - 9 rounds
Rybka 8.0
Junior 6.5
Shredder Not There

16th IPCCC 2006 - 7 rounds
Rybka 6.5
Shredder 6.0
Junior Not There

26th Dutch Championship 2006 - 9 rounds
Rybka 9
Shredder Not There
Junior Not There

15th IPCCC 2005 - 7 rounds
Rybka 5.5
Shredder 4.5
Junior Not There

So, Rybka beat shredder in three tournaments and
tied to shredder in one tournament. Rybka akso beat
Junior in two tournaments and lost to Junior in one
tournament. But Rybka didn't win the tournament
that most people think of as the championship. It's
pretty clear that Rybka is the strongest, and that
the "Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge" excluded the
strongest contender. They could have easily made it
a three-way match and billed it as "The winner of the
World Computer-Chess Championship vs. the winner against
the world human champion vs. the highest rated computer
chess program." Or they could have arranged qualifying
matches.

It looks like the ball is in FIDE's court now. If they
refuse to play their champion against Rybka when Rybka is
giving up a handicap of one point plus draw odds, it will
be pretty clear that they think Rybka is the stronger
program.


Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com/


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Old June 7th 07, 07:56 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?

It is interesting to note that Fritz doesn't appear in Guy's lists of
recent major tournaments... why? - it doesn't play in them!?

ChessBase's [Deep] Junior and [Deep] Fritz contest pretty well all the
big money matches, whether against Kasparov, Anand or Kramnik, or
against each other, as now. The key word in that sentence is probably
ChessBase

Both Fritz and Junior have 'ducked' the forthcoming World Computer
Championship, but are instead playing their private match.

The Computer Rating Lists which appear on the Internet at various sites
all show 3 or 4 different Rybka versions at the top - it's been top
since Rybka first appeared some 18 months ago, and more recent versions
have proved to be even stronger and have stayed at the top despite the
efforts of new improved versions of one or two other programs trying to
close the gap. Looking through all those lists it will be found that,
behind Rybka1.1, Rybka2.1, Rybka2.2 and Rybka2.3, there are Zap
Zanzibar, Hiarcs11.1 and LoopList12/13 which also show with higher
ratings than either Fritz or Junior.

Most folk will know I am NOT associated with Rybka, I am part of the
Hiarcs team trying to catch the blighter, but Rybka is clearly the no.1!

Cheers - Eric


In article , Guy Macon
/ writes



Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

Can anybody explain the history behind this open letter to
the FIDE President from the author of Rybka? I have read
it, but I get the sneaking suspicion that there is more to
it than what I read there.

http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm


Let's examine these claims.

FIDE says:
"Players: Deep Junior vs. Deep Fritz
The reigning World Computer Champion vs.
The winner against the world human champion."

Source:
http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1328
http://www.fide.com/news/download/ComputerMatch07.pdf

Rybkachess says:

"[Rybka] has competed in all eight major international
tournaments held since her first release and taken
clear (unshared) first place in seven of them."

and

"It's no wonder that Rybka is generally considered the
undisputed strongest chess program in the world."

Source:
http://rybkachess.com/docs/ChallengeToFIDE.htm

So, is it really fair to call Deep Junior the reigning
World Computer Champion? or to call Rybka the "undisputed
strongest chess program in the world?"

Wikipedia says this:

Rybka is a computer chess engine by International Master
Vasik Rajlich. As of February 2007, Rybka is top-rated
in the CCRL, CEGT, SSDF, SCCT, and CSS rating lists and
has won many official Computer Chess Tournaments
although it has yet to win the World Computer-Chess
Championship.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rybka

Let's look at the records of the various tournaments
listed by Rybka:

9th CCT 2007 - 7 rounds
Rybka 6.0
Junior 4.5
Shredder Not There

7th CSVN 2007 - 9 rounds
Rybka 9
Junior Not There
Shredder Not There

14th WCCC 2006 - 9 rounds
Junior 9.0
Shredder 8.5
Rybka 8.5

6th CSVN 2006 - 9 rounds
Rybka 8.5
Deep Shredder 6.5
Junior Not There

8th CCT 2006 - 9 rounds
Rybka 8.0
Junior 6.5
Shredder Not There

16th IPCCC 2006 - 7 rounds
Rybka 6.5
Shredder 6.0
Junior Not There

26th Dutch Championship 2006 - 9 rounds
Rybka 9
Shredder Not There
Junior Not There

15th IPCCC 2005 - 7 rounds
Rybka 5.5
Shredder 4.5
Junior Not There

So, Rybka beat shredder in three tournaments and
tied to shredder in one tournament. Rybka akso beat
Junior in two tournaments and lost to Junior in one
tournament. But Rybka didn't win the tournament
that most people think of as the championship. It's
pretty clear that Rybka is the strongest, and that
the "Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge" excluded the
strongest contender. They could have easily made it
a three-way match and billed it as "The winner of the
World Computer-Chess Championship vs. the winner against
the world human champion vs. the highest rated computer
chess program." Or they could have arranged qualifying
matches.

It looks like the ball is in FIDE's court now. If they
refuse to play their champion against Rybka when Rybka is
giving up a handicap of one point plus draw odds, it will
be pretty clear that they think Rybka is the stronger
program.


Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com/



--
With best wishes from Eric Hallsworth
45 Stretham Road, Wilburton, Cambs CB6 3RX, England
Publisher of Selective Search, the UK's only Computer Chess Magazine, est. 1985.
Computer Chess web pages+photos... http://www.elhchess.demon.co.uk
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Old June 7th 07, 09:53 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?

Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com/ wrote:
It looks like the ball is in FIDE's court now. If they refuse to
play their champion against Rybka when Rybka is giving up a handicap
of one point plus draw odds, it will be pretty clear that they think
Rybka is the stronger program.


That's not clear at all! For example, if I challenged Kramnik to a
match with those odds, you wouldn't say that Kramnik obviously
believed me to be the stronger player if he declined.

There are all kinds of reasons that FIDE might not want to include
Rybka. I'm not sure any of them is valid, mind you.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Generic Aluminium Atlas (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a map of the world that's
really light but it's just like all
the others!


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Old June 7th 07, 02:59 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?




Eric, please don't top-post. Here are some references:
http://www.xs4all.nl/%7ewijnands/nnq/nquote.html
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/ant...s.html#quoting
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html
http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/quote.html

Eric Hallsworth wrote:

It is interesting to note that Fritz doesn't appear in Guy's lists of
recent major tournaments... why? - it doesn't play in them!?


I got the list from the Rybka letter and only listed the top three,
but I doubt that there are any unlisted tournaments where Fritz beat
Rybka. Nonetheless, I agree with the decision to include Fritz.
It's the one that the average person who doesn't follow chess thinks
of as having beat the best humans. Here are some events that got a
lot of press or Fritz:

In 1995 Fritz 3 beat a prototype version of Deep Blue.

In 2002 Deep Fritz drew against Vladimir Kramnik

In 2003 X3D Fritz drew against Garry Kasparov.

In 2005 a Fritz 9 prototype drew against Rustam Kasimdzhanov.

In 2006 Deep Fritz beat Vladimir Kramnik.

In 2006 when Veselin Topalov's manager implied that Vladimir
Kramnik was consulting a computer during bathroom breaks, his
"coincidence statistics" fingered Fritz 9 as the computer.

No matter what Fritz's current strength is, the above is enough
so that the average person watching the news wil wonder why if
it was excluded.

ChessBase's [Deep] Junior and [Deep] Fritz contest pretty well all the
big money matches, whether against Kasparov, Anand or Kramnik, or
against each other, as now. The key word in that sentence is probably
ChessBase

Both Fritz and Junior have 'ducked' the forthcoming World Computer
Championship, but are instead playing their private match.


....thus insuring a victory for a Chessbase product and insuring
that the stronger but non-Chessbase Rybka can't win. This would
be pretty standard slimeball marketing practice, if not for the
involvement of FIDE.

The Computer Rating Lists which appear on the Internet at various sites
all show 3 or 4 different Rybka versions at the top - it's been top
since Rybka first appeared some 18 months ago, and more recent versions
have proved to be even stronger and have stayed at the top despite the
efforts of new improved versions of one or two other programs trying to
close the gap. Looking through all those lists it will be found that,
behind Rybka1.1, Rybka2.1, Rybka2.2 and Rybka2.3, there are Zap
Zanzibar, Hiarcs11.1 and LoopList12/13 which also show with higher
ratings than either Fritz or Junior.


Such lists are, in my opinion, a better measure of strength.
They play a larger number of games, tend to use the same programs
that you or I could buy, and try to use identical hardware.

Most folk will know I am NOT associated with Rybka, I am part of the
Hiarcs team trying to catch the blighter, but Rybka is clearly the no.1!


Indeed. Chessbase is taking a big risk of having the press focus
in on them ducking a fight with the strongest contender rather than
on the Chessbase-products-only match.

(I have no connection to any chess program other than a Mattel
handheld product that never saw the light of day.)

Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com/

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Old June 7th 07, 03:06 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Rybka and Open Letter to FIDE?




David Richerby wrote:

Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com/ wrote:

It looks like the ball is in FIDE's court now. If they refuse to
play their champion against Rybka when Rybka is giving up a handicap
of one point plus draw odds, it will be pretty clear that they think
Rybka is the stronger program.


That's not clear at all! For example, if I challenged Kramnik to a
match with those odds, you wouldn't say that Kramnik obviously
believed me to be the stronger player if he declined.


It would certainly suggest that Kramnik is afraid of you. The
obvious reply from Kramnik would be to ask you to up the stakes
to a million dollars or more.

--
Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com/

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