Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 02:43 AM
Gunny Bunny
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted

Steve Lopez article noted below is the same mentality that people have when
(C)heating on servers, he seems to have overlooked that concept:

---------
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1511
Zero to sixty in 4.7 GHz
05.03.2004 Do you always want to have "the baddest car in the valley" when
it comes to your chess machine? What do NASCAR, computer chess, and combat
robotics have in common? The answer depends on whom you ask. If you ask
columnist Steve Lopez, you'll get a rant like this week's ChessBase
Workshop.


The following article reflects the opinions of the author only and not that
of ChessBase GmbH or any of its employees; the author takes sole
responsibility for the content.

An earlier version of this article appeared on The Chess Kamikaze Homepage
in Spring 2003. It's been slightly re-edited for language and content before
being presented here.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

I was watching the movie American Graffiti awhile back; I'm always struck by
the "John Milner" subplot. You remember John; he's the hotrodder who has the
baddest car in the valley -- until Bob Falfa comes to town. Although John
wins the big race by default, he learns a valuable lesson: there's always a
"faster gun".

There are some computer owners who are experiencing (though not necessarily
learning) the same lesson these days. There are a lot of Interrant chess
servers now which have rooms where computer users can pit their computer
chess program(s) against the programs of others. And, believe it or not,
there are more than a few people who are spending great heaping gobs of
money to prove that their computer can kick your computer's silicon butt.

I did technical support for a chess software company and noticed a
disturbing trend: the majority of my questions were coming from people who
say they are playing no chess themselves, but are instead interested in ways
to "soup up" their computers so that it'll beat everyone else's computer
online. A couple of these folks have even confessed that they don't even
know how to play chess -- they're just interested in the "competition" of
their hardware against everyone else's hardware. A few aren't even sure how
to use Windows -- some have bought their first-ever computer just to get in
on the "fun".

This is a major change from a short year ago [i.e. 2002, as this was
written -- SL], when nearly 100% of the questions came from users who want
to use chess software to improve their own game. Just within the last month,
I've actually gone two weeks straight without a single call about that use
of the software -- every call has been on how to optimize the software for
best performance on their system, so that they can sally forth and smoke
everyone else's computer over the virtual chessboard.

Some folks even get nasty about it. When asked about optimization, I
typically refer them to an article I posted online on how to optimize the
hardware and software for best chessplaying performance. For a few folks,
that's not good enough -- they insist that there must be some "secret" hack
or tweak that will give them (and only them) an edge. And when I tell them
the bare fact -- that there is no such "secret tweak" -- they get angry and
accuse me of keeping that info to myself: "You're probably playing on the
server and you want to keep that as your own edge -- well, **** you then!!!
[*click*]" Weird -- very weird.

As I stated earlier, some people are actually going well in pocket to try to
be the "top dog" computer on a chess server. I've talked to two people
recently who spent over $4,500 each for dual-processor machines. "And I
can't understand why I'm still getting beat!" Well, for one thing, there are
people out there who have machines with more than two processors. And you
never know what will happen in a game anyway -- whether it's two humans
playing chess or two computers doing the same -- there's no pre-game
guarantee for either player that he will win; anything can happen.

What strikes me as really funny is that most of these people are using
identical software, and they know it (the big issue seems to be hardwa
"Which processor is best?"). Their Fritz8 is playing against other Fritz8s,
but for some reason it matters very much to them, in some deep and
meaningful way, that their computer be the #1 ranked machine on the servers.

I'll confess that I don't get it -- not at all. If they're happy pursuing
this, good on 'em, but I can think of things I'd much rather do with four or
five large than spend it on computer hardware just so that I can brag that
my chess server computer account's nickname has the highest ever four-digit
number after it, and that my processor can beat your processor.

There are times when you can practically feel the testosterone oozing out of
the phone when these guys discuss their big dreams and ambitions for their
hardware/sofware combos. And therein lies the key to understanding the
phenominon -- it's what a lot of people call the "gearhead" mentality. I was
recently discussing this computer chess phenominon with a friend and I said,
"I guess it's the NASCAR thing applied to computer chess".

She replied, "Or Robot Wars". Heh -- do my friends know me or what? (I'd
have been even more tickled if she's said Battlebots instead, since I tend
to slag off RW, but I greatly appreciated it regardless).

The idea of computer vs. computer competitions isn't new. Years ago, a
computer game called Corewar used to be really popular. You wrote a small
program that was dumped into a simulation of a computer core, and it battled
head to head against a competitor's program. The object was to write a
program that would wipe out all competitor's programs. They used to have
major intercollegiate Corewar tournaments about a decade ago; the game is
still played today but it's nowhere near as popular as it used to be. I'm
presently heavily involved with a different game called RoboForge in which
you construct and program a self-running fighting robot, then pit it against
other builders' robotic creations.

As I see it though, there's a significant difference between, say, buying a
piece of chess software plus the baddest computer hardware you can
find/afford to be a major competitor on chess servers and building a really
awesome fighting robot or writing a tough Corewar program. In the latter two
cases, you're actually doing something: you're creating something new out of
nothing and (in theory at least) Darwinian principles should hold sway: your
creation will "live" or "die" depending on how well you've thought things
through and done your work.

But when you buy a chess program that someone else wrote and run it on the
new RocketBoy 5000 multiprocessor system which you bought "off the shelf"
somewhere, you're not doing a thing except throwing money at the "problem".
It'd be a different story if you wrote the chess program yourself and/or
assembled your own hardware (the way Grandpa Feng did back in the day). But
in the scenario that many folks seem to be following, it seems to be more a
contest of wallets than wills.

So I don't see why some of these folks get so emotionally wrapped up in the
thing and so danged angry when "their" program (which they didn't write --
just paid $46 for) doesn't win 100% of its games. Why are they so angry?
It's just a case of their commercial program losing against the same
identical commercial program, albeit maybe on better/faster hardware. These
guys just need to learn the "John Milner" lesson -- there's always a faster
gun.

I'll admit it -- I'm baffled, mystified, and stumped by their level of
emotional involvement. But if this is the "future" of chess (and the volume
of phone calls and e-mails seems to point to that, from the early
indications anyway), I want no part of it, thanks just the same.

Now if people start attaching wheels, motors, picks, huge hammers, and power
saws to their Hewlett Packards and Compaqs to turn them loose on each other
in a 36' by 36' Lexan-enclosed box, you can count me in, at least as a
spectator. That would be awesome!

Until next week, have fun!


  #2   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 11:16 AM
HD
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted

Gunny Bunny skrev:
Steve Lopez article noted below is the same mentality that people have when
(C)heating on servers, he seems to have overlooked that concept:


Or maybe he didn't. He's addressing the people he'd been in touch with
where the questions have been about that specific topic, and not about
cheating.
BTW: I suppose that by cheating, you mean running engines against
unawared people?! If that's the case, have you asked yourself how
computerpower do you think would be needed to beat somebody of common
strenght? Would a Crafty-engine running on a single 200Mhz processor not
be sufficient for that purpose in the very most cases?!

Just asking.

Regards,
HD

  #3   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 12:07 PM
Gunny Bunny
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted


"HD" wrote in message
. dk...
Gunny Bunny skrev:
Steve Lopez article noted below is the same mentality that people have

when
(C)heating on servers, he seems to have overlooked that concept:


Or maybe he didn't. He's addressing the people he'd been in touch with
where the questions have been about that specific topic, and not about
cheating.
BTW: I suppose that by cheating, you mean running engines against
unawared people?! If that's the case, have you asked yourself how
computerpower do you think would be needed to beat somebody of common
strenght? Would a Crafty-engine running on a single 200Mhz processor not
be sufficient for that purpose in the very most cases?!

Just asking.

Regards,
HD


No, the concept I am referring too, is the mental aspect to being the
biggest badest boy on the block and winning. (C)heaters have low
self-esteem and use their (C)omputers to boost their ELO and EGO.

Same as bot vs. bot !!

Think about it


  #4   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 12:15 PM
Gunny Bunny
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted


"Gunny Bunny" wrote in message
...

"HD" wrote in message
. dk...
Gunny Bunny skrev:
Steve Lopez article noted below is the same mentality that people have

when
(C)heating on servers, he seems to have overlooked that concept:


Or maybe he didn't. He's addressing the people he'd been in touch with
where the questions have been about that specific topic, and not about
cheating.
BTW: I suppose that by cheating, you mean running engines against
unawared people?! If that's the case, have you asked yourself how
computerpower do you think would be needed to beat somebody of common
strenght? Would a Crafty-engine running on a single 200Mhz processor not
be sufficient for that purpose in the very most cases?!

Just asking.

Regards,
HD


No, the concept I am referring too, is the mental aspect to being the
biggest badest boy on the block and winning. (C)heaters have low
self-esteem and use their (C)omputers to boost their ELO and EGO.

Same as bot vs. bot !!

Think about it


http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Real...sers/Part3.htm



  #5   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 12:47 PM
Terry
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted


"Gunny Bunny" wrote in message
...

"HD" wrote in message
. dk...
Gunny Bunny skrev:
Steve Lopez article noted below is the same mentality that people have

when
(C)heating on servers, he seems to have overlooked that concept:


Or maybe he didn't. He's addressing the people he'd been in touch with
where the questions have been about that specific topic, and not about
cheating.
BTW: I suppose that by cheating, you mean running engines against
unawared people?! If that's the case, have you asked yourself how
computerpower do you think would be needed to beat somebody of common
strenght? Would a Crafty-engine running on a single 200Mhz processor not
be sufficient for that purpose in the very most cases?!

Just asking.

Regards,
HD


No, the concept I am referring too, is the mental aspect to being the
biggest badest boy on the block and winning. (C)heaters have low
self-esteem and use their (C)omputers to boost their ELO and EGO.

Same as bot vs. bot !!

Think about it



Computers v computers on the internet is not cheating.

Regards




  #6   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 03:40 PM
Mikko Nummelin
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, Gunny Bunny wrote:

So I don't see why some of these folks get so emotionally wrapped up in
the thing and so danged angry when "their" program (which they didn't
write -- just paid $46 for) doesn't win 100% of its games. Why are they
so angry? It's just a case of their commercial program losing against
the same identical commercial program, albeit maybe on better/faster
hardware. These guys just need to learn the "John Milner" lesson --
there's always a faster gun.


Many chess servers are unwilling to accept more computer accounts with
software running already on N+1 accounts. In practice this means all
Fritz, Rebel, Junior, Crafty, Shredder, Tiger etc. accounts which are
attempted to be registered. The best policy on computer accounts would be
that people were allowed only to register one computer account per person
and even that for only software they have written themselves. Major
IM/GM-level commercial and non-commercial programs (like those mentioned
before) could be handled so that the server administrators will carefully
choose and set up a few, say 5-10 accounts of them running on good
hardware, but not accept an infinite load of them in.


Mikko Nummelin
  #7   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 03:41 PM
MC
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted

I recently stopped playing online as I ran into too many instances of people
with low over-the-board ratings playing tactical-error-free games and with
considerably higher (sometimes 400 to 500) ratings online. I really don't
mind getting beat since all I'm doing online is training for my OTB games,
but being as busy as I am scheduling was an issue. I figured that if I'm
going to play against a chess engine I may as well play at home against CM9K
or Fritz at a time that is most convenient to me. That way I not only play
whenever I feel like playing, I also know *exactly who* I'm playing.

Most titled players (it seems) come online only to play blitz games, where
the use of computers is less of an issue. But longer games is a different
story and it appears to be going the way of postal chess...

I also started pondering why there's so much verbal abuse and harrassment on
the Internet... I came to the conclusion that it's fairly easy when you
don't have to meet your opponent face to face but can hide your true
personality in front of a computer screen in the comfort of your home.
However, chess is much more than being able to conjure up pretty
combinations; it's also a psychological battle which really tests you when
you are right there in front of your opponent, in person, not "virtually".
Also, learning to be a sportsman (or "sportsperson") before, during and
after the game, win or lose, it's one of the best qualities any person can
acquire, chessplayers and non-chessplayers alike.

Chess is in a way similar to sex (sorry for the analogy). If "virtual"
suffices or you just don't have any other options, then play online. But
nothing ever beats the "real thing", which is being there in the flesh, 100%
absorbed in the battle.

Regards,
MC
---

"Gunny Bunny" wrote in message
...

"HD" wrote in message
. dk...
Gunny Bunny skrev:
Steve Lopez article noted below is the same mentality that people have

when
(C)heating on servers, he seems to have overlooked that concept:


Or maybe he didn't. He's addressing the people he'd been in touch with
where the questions have been about that specific topic, and not about
cheating.
BTW: I suppose that by cheating, you mean running engines against
unawared people?! If that's the case, have you asked yourself how
computerpower do you think would be needed to beat somebody of common
strenght? Would a Crafty-engine running on a single 200Mhz processor not
be sufficient for that purpose in the very most cases?!

Just asking.

Regards,
HD


No, the concept I am referring too, is the mental aspect to being the
biggest badest boy on the block and winning. (C)heaters have low
self-esteem and use their (C)omputers to boost their ELO and EGO.

Same as bot vs. bot !!

Think about it




  #8   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 03:46 PM
Gunny Bunny
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted


"Terry" wrote in message
...

"Gunny Bunny" wrote in message
...

"HD" wrote in message
. dk...
Gunny Bunny skrev:
Steve Lopez article noted below is the same mentality that people

have
when
(C)heating on servers, he seems to have overlooked that concept:


Or maybe he didn't. He's addressing the people he'd been in touch with
where the questions have been about that specific topic, and not about
cheating.
BTW: I suppose that by cheating, you mean running engines against
unawared people?! If that's the case, have you asked yourself how
computerpower do you think would be needed to beat somebody of common
strenght? Would a Crafty-engine running on a single 200Mhz processor

not
be sufficient for that purpose in the very most cases?!

Just asking.

Regards,
HD


No, the concept I am referring too, is the mental aspect to being the
biggest badest boy on the block and winning. (C)heaters have low
self-esteem and use their (C)omputers to boost their ELO and EGO.

Same as bot vs. bot !!

Think about it



Computers v computers on the internet is not cheating.

Regards


**** your dumb, Terry !!


  #9   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 03:50 PM
Gunny Bunny
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted


"MC" wrote in message
...

Most titled players (it seems) come online only to play blitz games, where
the use of computers is less of an issue.


Your mistaken on this, blitz is actually MORE popular for (C)heaters !



  #10   Report Post  
Old March 13th 04, 06:34 PM
MC
 
Posts: n/a
Default (C)heating Revisted

Really? Wow, I didn't know that.

Let me rephrase my argument regarding titled players. Most of them do not
even have online standard ratings. It seems like they log on mostly to play
blitz, not to play long training games. If they they (C)heat, well... they
already earned their titles by playing OTB. It is less likely that they
will want to (C)heat to inflate their online rating, when they are in their
own right already strong OTB players. The same cannot be said of non-titled
players... I believe many (not all or most) non-titled players (especially
at the lower/weaker levels) have more motivation to inflate their
egos/ratings by (C)heating.

(C)heating is something that cannot be detected with absolute certainty
(that's why the ICCF doesn't establish rules about computer use; they claim
they can't enforce those rules). At longer time controls you don't have to
have an engine running on the same machine as they one you use for playing.
You can have an engine running over here while you play over there, etc. I
just don't know how it can be detected and prevented. I think online chess
is going the way of Kasparov's "advanced-chess".

Regards,
MC
---
"Gunny Bunny" wrote in message
...

"MC" wrote in message
...

Most titled players (it seems) come online only to play blitz games,

where
the use of computers is less of an issue.


Your mistaken on this, blitz is actually MORE popular for (C)heaters !





Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dos Hermanas tournament and (C)heating Gunny Bunny rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis) 0 March 28th 04 02:30 PM
Ethical cheating in online chess J Kazinski rec.games.chess.computer (Computer Chess) 7 February 7th 04 04:17 PM
IM disqualified for cheating in online event Russell Reagan rec.games.chess.analysis (Chess Analysis) 2 November 11th 03 04:04 AM
IM disqualified for cheating in online event Russell Reagan rec.games.chess.computer (Computer Chess) 2 November 11th 03 04:04 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:18 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Chess"

 

Copyright © 2017