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Old September 15th 07, 08:37 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.

I am asking for a Challenge between Frits8 vs Master Level, Can Fritz
8 beat Master Level of GetClub Chess?

What do Taylor Kingston Say.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Now All will cry by the strength of GetClub Chess, Ha Ha Ha....

GetClub Chess will beat all Players whether Strong or weak. Ha Ha
Ha....

Yesterday Beginner Level beat a player 4 times and was able to draw a
game with Nomorechess So I think the game play has improved a lot.

Can Zebediah & Taylor Kingston Still beat its Master Level without
using Computer?

Can Nomorechess beat the Easy & Normal Levels?

I love seeing GetClub winning the games!!!

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

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Old September 15th 07, 02:34 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Q: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level. A: Yes, if don't remove its Queen.


Sanny wrote:

I am asking for a Challenge between Frits8 vs Master Level, Can Fritz
8 beat Master Level of GetClub Chess?

What do Taylor Kingston Say.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Now All will cry by the strength of GetClub Chess, Ha Ha Ha....

GetClub Chess will beat all Players whether Strong or weak. Ha Ha
Ha....


Sanny, I really do get the feeling I am playing a human
opponent now. All booked-up in the openings (compared
to before, when it knew nothing), and it plays well but on
occasion misses really simple tactics, just like humans
do. This reminds me of the Turk: a contraption in which
was hidden a human chess player, except that in this
case the human is about Class B strength, whereas with
the Turk they put a strong master inside.



Yesterday Beginner Level beat a player 4 times and was able to draw a
game with Nomorechess So I think the game play has improved a lot.


Maybe Nomo got careless and clicked "Knight" instead
of "Queen" when promoting his pawn; maybe the program
was not so good if it allowed the opponent to promote his
pawns and must rely upon mouse errors to get a draw.
(BTW, computers don't make this kind of error, so they
have an inherent advantage as small compensation for
being really, really daft.)



Can Zebediah & Taylor Kingston Still beat its Master Level without
using Computer?


No. In order to play at GetClub, he *must* use a
computer, just like the rest of us. This may surprise
you, but even He puts his pants on, one leg at a time!



Can Nomorechess beat the Easy & Normal Levels?


Nomo may be tired of all the disconnects, so maybe
he will and maybe he won't beat up on those levels some
mo'.


I love seeing GetClub winning the games!!!


How about fixing the program so that it doesn't force
you to play on after the game is legally over? K & N
vs. K is drawn, so the fact that I had to hang my Knight
in order to move on to the next game is a bug; worse,
even after I gave away my Knight it STILL did not see
that the game was a draw!!! King vs. King, Sanny, is
a draw, according to the rules of chess. Naturally, I
cleverly found a way to get a threefold repetition of
position and thereby save a draw (whew!) before losing
on old age/rigormortis at the keyboard; this just goes
to show how good a chess player I am -- even when the
chips are down, I hunker down and find a way to save
the game; my King and Knight were easily a match for
the Beginner level's lone King -- in fact, I felt I had the
upperhand (groan).


-- help bot

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Old September 15th 07, 03:15 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.

On Sep 15, 3:37 am, Sanny wrote:
I am asking for a Challenge between Frits8 vs Master Level, Can Fritz
8 beat Master Level of GetClub Chess?

What do Taylor Kingston Say.


Sanny, I already registered Fritz8 with your "new improved" program,
and have pitted the two programs against each other in several games
at various levels, including "master" if I recall correctly. It was no
contest. Fritz8 slaughtered your program. So the match you ask for has
already been played, just check your records.

I love seeing GetClub winning the games!!!


GetClub will never beat Frtiz8.

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Old September 15th 07, 06:17 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.

What do Taylor Kingston Say.

Sanny, I already registered Fritz8 with your "new improved" program,
and have pitted the two programs against each other in several games
at various levels, including "master" if I recall correctly. It was no
contest. Fritz8 slaughtered your program. So the match you ask for has
already been played, just check your records.


That was I think 2-3 days back. After that the Game was improved and
now it has outplay many good players.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Currently the GetClub game is 3-4 times better than it was 2-3 days
back. Thats why I would like to see if Now GetClub Chess gives
Challenge to Fritz8 or not.


I love seeing GetClub winning the games!!!


GetClub will never beat Frtiz8.


Ok what about you, Can Master Level beat you in 2/4 Games? Have you
played a game without computer help?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html



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Old September 15th 07, 06:48 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Q: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level. A: Yes, if don't remove its Queen.

How about fixing the program so that it doesn't force
you to play on after the game is legally over? K & N
vs. K is drawn, so the fact that I had to hang my Knight
in order to move on to the next game is a bug; worse,
even after I gave away my Knight it STILL did not see
that the game was a draw!!! King vs. King, Sanny, is
a draw, according to the rules of chess. Naturally, I
cleverly found a way to get a threefold repetition of
position and thereby save a draw (whew!) before losing
on old age/rigormortis at the keyboard; this just goes
to show how good a chess player I am -- even when the
chips are down, I hunker down and find a way to save
the game; my King and Knight were easily a match for
the Beginner level's lone King -- in fact, I felt I had the
upperhand (groan).


Samsloan has just arrived at GetClub Chess. He played 2 games both
with Easy Level. And win both games. Is he a good player? Can he be on
top at GetClub Chess? He beat Easy level in just 24 moves in first
game. And the other game he took 50 Moves to win.

His game looks better than that of other players. Is he using
Computer?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html



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Old September 16th 07, 01:36 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Q: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level. A: Yes, if don't remove its Queen.

On Sep 15, 12:48 pm, Sanny wrote:


Samsloan has just arrived at GetClub Chess. He played 2 games both
with Easy Level. And win both games. Is he a good player?


Yes, he is a good player. You need to focus on beating
weak players consistently; these strong players are all
booked up and you may beat them on occasion, but just
get the chess program at a reasonable level at tactics
and you will see the most improvement in results.


Can he be on top at GetClub Chess?


Um, no. Only nomorechess can do that; or maybe
Taylor Zebediah Kingston if he works very hard.

You see, Mr. Sloan doesn't realize it, but he plays
very bad moves in the opening; and since the
opening is going to be a part of *every* game, that
hurts him, except against weak players where the
bizarre positions put them on their own quickly.


He beat Easy level in just 24 moves in first game.


The number of moves can tell you how "sharply"
they play, but it is only the result which speaks to
strength. Think about it: if you were to fight a tiger
with a knife, you would probably lose *very quickly*;
but if you were to fight old age, you would lose every
time, even though it would be a long, slow struggle.

So, which gives you the better odds? I say fight the
tiger with the knife; try to wrest the knife from him
and then use it to slit his throat from behind (you
should know that fighting a tiger from any other
position can be *very* risky!).



And the other game he took 50 Moves to win.

His game looks better than that of other players. Is he using
Computer?


Maybe he was in better form, or maybe he is taking
the games more seriously, carefully considering his
every move. If he is using another chess program (it
makes little difference which one), yours will lose
horribly in nearly every game. Of course, yours is a
Java applet while a normal chess program is running
much, much faster.


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Old September 16th 07, 08:00 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Q: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level. A: Yes, if don't remove its Queen.


So, which gives you the better odds? I say fight the
tiger with the knife; try to wrest the knife from him
and then use it to slit his throat from behind (you
should know that fighting a tiger from any other
position can be *very* risky!).


Ok Play a game with Master Level and try to beat it. I think it will
win 3/4 times. Incase you win then telkl me any weak move played by
Master Level.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html



Maybe he was in better form, or maybe he is taking
the games more seriously, carefully considering his
every move. If he is using another chess program (it
makes little difference which one), yours will lose
horribly in nearly every game. Of course, yours is a
Java applet while a normal chess program is running
much, much faster.


I am thinking to have a downloadable version of the game also that
will be faster than the applet. If it is 10 times faster then Beginner
Level will play as good as Normal Level & Easy level will play like
Master Level. That I will create once all are satisfied with the
Applet version.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


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Old September 16th 07, 04:56 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.

On Sep 15, 1:17 pm, Sanny wrote:
What do Taylor Kingston Say.


Sanny, I already registered Fritz8 with your "new improved" program,
and have pitted the two programs against each other in several games
at various levels, including "master" if I recall correctly. It was no
contest. Fritz8 slaughtered your program. So the match you ask for has
already been played, just check your records.


That was I think 2-3 days back. After that the Game was improved and
now it has outplay many good players.


Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
game:

White: GetClub
Black: Fritz 8

note: time used, in minutes and seconds, given after each move:

1.Nf3 10:00 d5 :00 2.d4 6:10 Nf6 :00 3.Bg5 18:39

Notice the long think. Sanny's program repeatedly overstepped the
self-announced time limit of 5-10 minutes per move.

3...Ne4 0:00 4.Qd3? 6:03 Nxg5 0:19 5.Nxg5 8:40 e5 0:00 6.h4 13:31 h6
0:23 7.Nxf7?? 13:32 Kxf7 0:04

Basically, the game is already decided. White might have had some
slight chance if he'd followed up the knight sac with 8.dxe5, but
Sanny's program proceeds from bad to worse.

8.Nc3? 13:52 e4 0:10 9.Qb5? 5:58 c6 0:00 10.Qb3 9:47 Qb6 0:00

Good, straightforward chess technique. When you're ahead in
material, seek to exchange queens. White must oblige or lose the d-
pawn.

11.Qxb6 6:27 axb6 0:02 12.Nd1 14:05

A ludicrous spectacle. Not only is White a piece down, but he's lost
control of the center and does not have a single piece developed.

12...c5 0:17 13.Ne3 10:32 cxd4 0:10 14.Nxd5 14:59 Be6 0:00 15.c4 13:07
Bd6 0:00 16.g4? 16:39 b5 0:05 17.e3 7:18 bxc4 0:00 18.Bxc4 6:02 Rc8
0:00 19.b3?? 9:49 b5 0:00

Most human players would probably have gone for more simplification,
but Fritz8 has enough calculating ability, even at very quick time
limits, to handle this more complicated line.

20.Nb6 11:27 bxc4 0:00 21.Nxa8 9:15 dxe3 0:00 22.O-O 11:26 Nd7 0:04
23.fxe3+ 23:15 Ke7 0:00 24.Rf2 9:11 Rxa8 0:04 25.g5 7:38 cxb3 0:02
26.a4 8:23 Bg3 0:00 27.Rd2 7:51 Bxh4 0:04 28.gxh6 7:45 Ne5 0:00

Most human players again would probably just chop wood, but Fritz is
weaving a mating net.

29.Kh1 13:16 Nf3 0:03 30.Re2 14:52 Rh8 0:00 31.hxg7 16:23 Rh6 0:04
32.Kg2 8:30

At this point Fritz announced mate in at most 8.

32...Rg6+ 0:00 33.Kh1 15:56 Bf6 0:06

Here I shut down for the night, and restarted the game this morning,
hence the "0:00" time for White's next move

34.g8=R 0:00

Seems odd to promote to a rook, but that's what Sanny's program did.
Doesn't matter anyway. The way Fritz now completely ignores the newly
promoted piece is amusing.

34...Rh6+ 0:00 35.Kg2 6:18 Rh2+ 0:00 36.Kf1 6:23 Bc4 0:00 37.Rae1 9:42
Bh4 0:00 38.Rg7+ 9:41 Kf8 0:00

And here Sanny's program resigned; after the spite check 39.Rf7+ Kxf7
it's mate next move.

I trust this satisfies Sanny's curiosity about the relative merits
of his program versus Fritz8, and puts paid to the notion that his
program is "improving." I will waste no more time on this issue.


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Old September 17th 07, 06:40 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.


Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
game:

White: GetClub
Black: Fritz 8

note: time used, in minutes and seconds, given after each move:

1.Nf3 10:00 d5 :00 2.d4 6:10 Nf6 :00 3.Bg5 18:39


The game was wrong. I find the Opening book was not followed. It
thought for 10 min in opening first move? It always plays opening
moves in 0 seconds. And First 4 moves are opening moves.

Why was opening not played. It means there was something wrong with
loading of program, Otherwise a descent opening would have been played
and it would have tough time for fritz8 once the game started with a
correct opening.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

So please try again with Opening moves. as this game was not played
with opening book for some reasion.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

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Old September 17th 07, 06:57 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.

On Sep 16, 10:56 am, Taylor Kingston wrote:

Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
game:

White: GetClub
Black: Fritz 8

note: time used, in minutes and seconds, given after each move:

1.Nf3 10:00 d5 :00 2.d4 6:10 Nf6 :00 3.Bg5 18:39

Notice the long think. Sanny's program repeatedly overstepped the
self-announced time limit of 5-10 minutes per move.


A nice diversion to avoid recognition of the fact that
here, GetClub stands well due to her solid opening play.



3...Ne4 0:00 4.Qd3? 6:03 Nxg5 0:19 5.Nxg5 8:40 e5 0:00 6.h4 13:31 h6
0:23 7.Nxf7?? 13:32 Kxf7 0:04

Basically, the game is already decided. White might have had some
slight chance if he'd followed up the knight sac with 8.dxe5, but
Sanny's program proceeds from bad to worse.

8.Nc3? 13:52 e4 0:10 9.Qb5? 5:58 c6 0:00 10.Qb3 9:47 Qb6 0:00

Good, straightforward chess technique. When you're ahead in
material, seek to exchange queens. White must oblige or lose the d-
pawn.


What about 11.e3, guarding the d-pawn and
stubbornly refusing to trade Queens? If the
opponent initiates the trade, it is a psychological
coup; in effect, Fritz must admit that he can't
handle the tactics with Queens on the board.


11.Qxb6 6:27 axb6


An excellent move! GetClub is a tactical
genius, sometimes selecting the same move
as Bobby Fischer almost certainly would.



0:02 12.Nd1 14:05

A ludicrous spectacle. Not only is White a piece down, but he's lost
control of the center and does not have a single piece developed.


Read Nimzowitch; one need not always occupy
the center, or rush development if the center is
closed.


12...c5 0:17 13.Ne3 10:32 cxd4 0:10 14.Nxd5 14:59 Be6 0:00 15.c4 13:07
Bd6 0:00 16.g4? 16:39 b5 0:05 17.e3 7:18 bxc4 0:00 18.Bxc4 6:02 Rc8
0:00 19.b3??


Another classic example of anti-GetClub annotation.

Objectively, this is just about as good a way to lose as any.
While most humans would prefer to "attack something" with
....Nb6, there is little objective reason to prefer one losing
technique to another. In fact, many grandmasters are known
for being poor at losing brilliantly. You take GM Kramnik, for
instance; in one game he allowed a mate-in-one on himself,
when there were myriad better ways to lose!


9:49 b5 0:00

Most human players would probably have gone for more simplification,
but Fritz8 has enough calculating ability, even at very quick time
limits, to handle this more complicated line.

20.Nb6 11:27 bxc4 0:00 21.Nxa8 9:15 dxe3


Look at this: no query for inferior moves, if *Fritz*
is the one making them. My computer shows that
....Bb4+ is quite superior: 22. Kf1 Nd7, 23. ed Rxa8
(+5 for Black since the Knight does not escape).


0:00 22.O-O


An error. Now the Knight is trapped for sure.


11:26 Nd7 0:04
23.fxe3+


Another brilliant tactical blow by GetClub! Too bad
the attack will be made without any army left.


23:15 Ke7 0:00 24.Rf2 9:11 Rxa8 0:04 25.g5


A serious error, as now the pin-- a8-a1 -- will allow
Fritz a quick and smooth finish, like a Pinot Grigio,
1948.


7:38 cxb3 0:02
26.a4 8:23 Bg3 0:00 27.Rd2 7:51 Bxh4 0:04 28.gxh6 7:45 Ne5 0:00

Most human players again would probably just chop wood, but Fritz is
weaving a mating net.


Well, perhaps it is, but Fritz obviously lost the thread
when it gave up on promoting the b-pawn and switched
to grabbing irrelevant pawns on the far wing. IMO, White
should already be down to one Rook and completely
defenseless about here.


29.Kh1 13:16 Nf3 0:03 30.Re2 14:52 Rh8 0:00 31.hxg7 16:23 Rh6 0:04
32.Kg2 8:30

At this point Fritz announced mate in at most 8.


Yes, well, that may be because White has defended
poorly; my computer sees no forced easy mate after
better defensive moves. In other words, was Fritz
really "weaving a net" or did GetClub just trip and
catch itself?


32...Rg6+ 0:00 33.Kh1 15:56 Bf6 0:06


Here, my computer shows a forced mate via ...Be1.
If Fritz misses shallow mates, how can he have been
"weaving a net" many moves back?


Here I shut down for the night, and restarted the game this morning,
hence the "0:00" time for White's next move

34.g8=R 0:00

Seems odd to promote to a rook, but that's what Sanny's program did.
Doesn't matter anyway. The way Fritz now completely ignores the newly
promoted piece is amusing.

34...Rh6+


Amusing perhaps, but after this lemon my computer
shows the quickest forced mates have evaporated into
thin air. In fact, Fritz seems to almost be struggling
not to *lose ground* here, in terms of "mate-in-x".


0:00 35.Kg2 6:18 Rh2+ 0:00 36.Kf1 6:23 Bc4


Finally, a good move my program did not foresee.
We're back to the quickie mates again.


0:00 37.Rae1 9:42
Bh4 0:00 38.Rg7+ 9:41 Kf8 0:00

And here Sanny's program resigned; after the spite check 39.Rf7+ Kxf7
it's mate next move.



I trust this satisfies Sanny's curiosity about the relative merits
of his program versus Fritz8, and puts paid to the notion that his
program is "improving." I will waste no more time on this issue.


Sometimes, Sanny's program does really stupid
things like the Knight sac' in this game. But other
times, it plays rather well for a long time. The
problem is that it only takes one such blunder for
the program to lose the game, and this is why I
keep telling Sanny to get his tactics up to speed.

I believe it was Sam Sloan who recommended the
book "Pawn Power in Chess" to Sanny, but if you
play the program you will see that he can have all
of that programmed in and it would still lose, as in
the above game, on elementary tactics.


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