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Old September 29th 07, 08:13 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Zap beats Rybka in close match..



M Winther wrote:

skrev Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com/:

M Winther wrote:

skrev Ian Burton :

"M Winther" wrote in message

It's idiotic that it becomes a competition about best opening preparation.
Had they played Chess256 instead, then it would have been a proper
measure of playing strength. Chess256 is standard chess, only that
the opening setup for the pawns is chosen randomly while satisfying the
condition that the pawns must be either placed on the second or third
rank. There are 256 possible configurations. All of them are sound and
balanced, and fully playable. Black's setup mirrors white's. In all other
respects this game is the same as orthodox chess.
http://hem.passagen.se/melki9/randompawn.htm

Here we go again: Standard chess but ... Once there's a "but" (here an
"only") it's no longer standard chess, but some *******ization. Results
would mean nothing to the chess world.

No! The initial positions are such that they could be reached in standard
chess in a few moves. So it's the same chess laws that are at work.


No it isn't. The laws of chess allow the player to choose every move.

It also isn't the same game. There is a fundamental divide between
games where there is an element of chance/luck and games that are
purely decided by the skill of the players. In games with a random
element, you almost always see many deals, many rolls, etc. because
large numbers of random events tend to balance out and make the game
less of a matteer of luck[1]. Chess256 lacks that balancing effect.

(Note [1]: I wouldn't mind going against the best poker player on
earth if we bet everything on a single hand, but I sure wouldn't
want to play against him for a couple of hours...)


Certainly not!


Which part of what I wrote above is incorrect?

There is no random effect, no element of luck, because all
positions are fully equal and fully sound. The best player
wins.


Please reconcile your first staement:

"The opening setup for the pawns is chosen randomly"

with your second staement:

"There is no random effect, no element of luck"

Both cannot be true.

Also, do you have any evidence that all positions are
"fully equal and fully sound?" That would be a surprising
outcome. Checkers, which does randomize openings when
the masters compete, only allows a subset of openings
considered to be sound, and even then some of the lines
give an advantage to one side or the other.

--
Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com/




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Old September 30th 07, 06:28 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Zap beats Rybka in close match..

Den 2007-09-29 21:13:08 skrev Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com/:



M Winther wrote:

skrev Guy Macon http://www.guymacon.com/:

M Winther wrote:

skrev Ian Burton :

"M Winther" wrote in message

It's idiotic that it becomes a competition about best opening preparation.
Had they played Chess256 instead, then it would have been a proper
measure of playing strength. Chess256 is standard chess, only that
the opening setup for the pawns is chosen randomly while satisfying the
condition that the pawns must be either placed on the second or third
rank. There are 256 possible configurations. All of them are sound and
balanced, and fully playable. Black's setup mirrors white's. In all other
respects this game is the same as orthodox chess.
http://hem.passagen.se/melki9/randompawn.htm

Here we go again: Standard chess but ... Once there's a "but" (here an
"only") it's no longer standard chess, but some *******ization. Results
would mean nothing to the chess world.

No! The initial positions are such that they could be reached in standard
chess in a few moves. So it's the same chess laws that are at work.

No it isn't. The laws of chess allow the player to choose every move.

It also isn't the same game. There is a fundamental divide between
games where there is an element of chance/luck and games that are
purely decided by the skill of the players. In games with a random
element, you almost always see many deals, many rolls, etc. because
large numbers of random events tend to balance out and make the game
less of a matteer of luck[1]. Chess256 lacks that balancing effect.

(Note [1]: I wouldn't mind going against the best poker player on
earth if we bet everything on a single hand, but I sure wouldn't
want to play against him for a couple of hours...)


Certainly not!


Which part of what I wrote above is incorrect?

There is no random effect, no element of luck, because all
positions are fully equal and fully sound. The best player
wins.


Please reconcile your first staement:

"The opening setup for the pawns is chosen randomly"

with your second staement:

"There is no random effect, no element of luck"

Both cannot be true.

Also, do you have any evidence that all positions are
"fully equal and fully sound?" That would be a surprising
outcome. Checkers, which does randomize openings when
the masters compete, only allows a subset of openings
considered to be sound, and even then some of the lines
give an advantage to one side or the other.


I meant that there is no random element in terms of luck. All
positions are more equal than the standard position. Black
has alrady begun a defensive setup, whereas white has some
pawns on the third row, which he would typically need to move
again in order to play for a win. However, neither player has any
knowledge of the positions, and they always invite to a fighting
game.

Mats
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Old September 30th 07, 10:39 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Zap beats Rybka in close match..

M Winther wrote:

I meant that there is no random element in terms of luck. All
positions are more equal than the standard position. Black
has alrady begun a defensive setup, whereas white has some
pawns on the third row, which he would typically need to move
again in order to play for a win.


There might be setups where the advantage of moving first is bigger
than in normal chess. One can observe similar problems in Chess960.

You are making claims but there is nothing to back them up.

--
GCP
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Old September 30th 07, 10:54 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Zap beats Rybka in close match..

30.09.2007 11:39, Gian-Carlo Pascutto:

There might be setups where the advantage of moving first is bigger
than in normal chess. One can observe similar problems in Chess960.


Some time ago Kasparov made a comment in his New in Chess column in this
regard. He thinks, that some of the positions in Chess960 are highly
imbalanced to the disadvantage of black.

Greetings,
Ralf
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Old September 30th 07, 12:05 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Zap beats Rybka in close match..

Den 2007-09-30 11:39:00 skrev Gian-Carlo Pascutto :

M Winther wrote:

I meant that there is no random element in terms of luck. All
positions are more equal than the standard position. Black
has alrady begun a defensive setup, whereas white has some
pawns on the third row, which he would typically need to move
again in order to play for a win.


There might be setups where the advantage of moving first is bigger
than in normal chess. One can observe similar problems in Chess960.

You are making claims but there is nothing to back them up.



Chess960 is a completely different thing. Some initial positions are
awkward. I *have* done something to backup my claim. I have created
two chess programs that randomizes according to Chess256, and I've
studied those positions that could possibly be bad for black, such as
pawns on c3/c6, f3/f6, and h3/h6. There is a hole on g6 that could
possibly be utilized by 1.Qc2. However, this move is simply a tempo
loss. All positions in Chess256 are quite sound.
http://hem.passagen.se/melki9/randompawn.htm

Moreover, I have played several Chess256 games, using my programs,
and I enjoy it - which is the most important criterion.

Mats


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Old September 30th 07, 12:38 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Zap beats Rybka in close match..

M Winther wrote:

Chess960 is a completely different thing. Some initial positions are
awkward. I *have* done something to backup my claim. I have created
two chess programs that randomizes according to Chess256, and I've
studied those positions that could possibly be bad for black, such as
pawns on c3/c6, f3/f6, and h3/h6. There is a hole on g6 that could
possibly be utilized by 1.Qc2. However, this move is simply a tempo
loss.


You don't think that having the initiative in a committal position like
this:

rnbqkbnr/p1pp2p1/1p2pp1p/8/8/1P2PP1P/P1PP2P1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq -

is worth more than having the initiative in the starting position?

You can analyze with pretty much any strong program and it will disagree
with you.

--
GCP
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Old September 30th 07, 06:01 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Zap beats Rybka in close match..

Den 2007-09-30 13:38:43 skrev Gian-Carlo Pascutto :

M Winther wrote:

Chess960 is a completely different thing. Some initial positions are
awkward. I *have* done something to backup my claim. I have created
two chess programs that randomizes according to Chess256, and I've
studied those positions that could possibly be bad for black, such as
pawns on c3/c6, f3/f6, and h3/h6. There is a hole on g6 that could
possibly be utilized by 1.Qc2. However, this move is simply a tempo
loss.


You don't think that having the initiative in a committal position like
this:

rnbqkbnr/p1pp2p1/1p2pp1p/8/8/1P2PP1P/P1PP2P1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq -

is worth more than having the initiative in the starting position?

You can analyze with pretty much any strong program and it will disagree
with you.



Gambit Fruit says it's a slight advantage for white. This would be
ideal because it creates a strategical tension. I was worried that all
positions were almost dead equal. I do think, however, that programs
generally overestimate such positions, while they underestimate the
capacity that black has to employ a defensive setup. Here black
already has started developing French with b6. I don't think black
is in any danger.

Mats

Mats
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Old October 1st 07, 03:23 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Zap beats Rybka in close match..

On Sep 30, 4:39 am, Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
M Winther wrote:
I meant that there is no random element in terms of luck. All
positions are more equal than the standard position. Black
has alrady begun a defensive setup, whereas white has some
pawns on the third row, which he would typically need to move
again in order to play for a win.


There might be setups where the advantage of moving first is bigger
than in normal chess. One can observe similar problems in Chess960.

You are making claims but there is nothing to back them up.



I think you forgot about bluster... .


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